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Subject: Lord of the dance - tune From: mim Date: 07 May 98 - 12:54 AM what is the origin of the tune for Lord of the Dance? |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Alan of Australia Date: 07 May 98 - 09:19 AM G'day, Wasn't it the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts"? Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: mim Date: 07 May 98 - 12:16 PM I know its sthe same tune as Simple Gifts but was it a traditional tune to begin with? And from where? |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Bruce O. Date: 07 May 98 - 01:30 PM According to 'The American Heritage Songbook', p. 62, "Simple Gifts" was published in 1848, and soon became widely popular. I think its tune was used by Aaron Copland for his "Appalachian Spring" before its use by Sidney Carter for his "Lord of the Dance". |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Bruce O. Date: 07 May 98 - 01:44 PM I couldn't get the MIDI on the Aaron Colland hompage to work, but his ballet "Appalachian Spring" was of 1943-4, and Sidney Carter's "Lord of the Dance" was c 1959, according to (WETA's) Mary Cliff's posting on another list last January. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: dick greenhaus Date: 07 May 98 - 02:26 PM According to Elie Siegmeister, the tune may be derived from an 17th or 18th Century Dutch Hymn, Confess Jehovah. I'll post the words and music when I find them. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Joe Offer Date: 07 May 98 - 03:35 PM Well, Mim, I guess your question isn't as easy to answer as I first thought. Every folkie who survived the 60's knows that songwriter Sydney Carter used the Shaker tune "Simple Gifts" for his 1963 song, "Lord of the Dance" (both songs are in the database). And "Simple Gifts," of course, was that song that was a minor hit for Judy Collins and was used by Aaron Copland in his 1934 ballet, "Appalachian Spring." That's about all that's commonly known, though. I thought Sandburg or the Lomaxes would tell the story of this hymn, but I couldn't find anything in their books. The "Rise Up Singing" songbook says the Shakers were the most successful of the many 19th-century communitarian movements, This song was sung throughout the Shaker communities and appears in many pre-Civil War manuscripts. I couldn't find anything that said if the tune originated with the Shakers, or if it came from an earlier source. Here's an interesting tidbit I picked up from Richard McBrien's Encyclopedia of Catholicism, which is a pretty reliable work: Shakers, members of a millennialist offshoot of the Quakers. They derived their name from the shaking which possessed them through spiritual exaltation. Ann Lee, revered for her prophetic visions, led a small group of Shakers from England to America in 1774. Early Shakers emphasized celibacy, communal living, and ecstatic, yet simple, worship. They were innovative farmers and superb artisans. Around 1850, nineteen communities housed perhaps 3,600 members. In the early 1990's, there were only a handful remaining in New Hampshire.Then there's this, excerpted from E.A. Livingstone's Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church: Shakers, also "The United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing" or "The Millenialist Church," a communistic and pacifist body which originated during a Quaker revival in 1747. The original leaders were succeeded by Ann Lee, known as Mother Ann, who came to be regarded as "the female disciple of Christ," Jesus being the "male principle"; in her the Second Coming was fulfilled. In 1774 she led a small band to the United States. They settled near Albany, NY. Their numbers were increased in 1780 by converts from an independent religious revival near New Lebanon.So, that tells the story of the Shakers, but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions about the hymn. Looks like Bruce and Dick have a good start on that. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: mim Date: 07 May 98 - 06:13 PM Thank all of you for your help. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Elliott Date: 07 May 98 - 08:41 PM I once heard a Celtic band perform the tune under the title "The Dancing Master" but have been unable to discover any sources supporting this title. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca Date: 07 May 98 - 09:28 PM And the Shakers made great chairs, too.:) |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Barry Finn Date: 07 May 98 - 09:43 PM & the paint they developed is still up after all these years. They're doing chemical analysis to find out how they got it to last so long. I belive there are 1 or 2 of the orignal shakers left. Shakers didn't procreate, they adopted children, who may or may not have stayed as an adult. A law was passed that prohibited religous organizations from adopting, the well went dry. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Pauline Lerner Date: 08 May 98 - 02:42 AM You're right about Aaron Copeland and Appalachian Spring. Pauline |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Joe Offer Date: 08 May 98 - 02:54 AM "Appalachian Spring" is one of my favorites. Click here for a MIDI rendition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: erica Date: 08 May 98 - 11:53 AM there's a shaker historical society nearby...i can go see if there's any information there on the song origin. no guarantees, but it might be worth a shot. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: aldus Date: 11 May 98 - 02:30 PM This is an old Dutch tune. It arrived in England in the late 1700"s and came from there to America. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Bruce O. Date: 11 May 98 - 04:51 PM In what work prior to 1800 is this tune to be found, and what was its title? |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: erica Date: 14 May 98 - 12:42 PM well, hey, i finally a)got some information to give and b)mananged to get here to give it!! life is great, eh? the song was written by elder Joseph Brackett up in Alfred, Maine in 1848. that's all the info i have as of yet, but the nice woman from the historical society said she'd put an article about him in the mail for me. if there's anything juicy in it, i'll post again. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Joe Offer Date: 14 May 98 - 04:14 PM Even if it's not too juicy, Erica, please post it. I've always wondered about the history of this hymn. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Dale Rose Date: 15 May 98 - 10:05 AM Anyone fortunate enough to be able to get the Leahy special on PBS in the US(or whatever Canadian network would likely air it) will be treated to a nice a capella version of Lord of the Dance by Siobheann, Maria, Julie, Agnes, and Erin Leahy. The rest of the special is just fantastic fiddling and step dancing, though. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: erica Date: 19 May 98 - 11:45 AM well joe (and anybody else), here ya go. Brackett was born 6 may 1797 and was a child of ten when his father united with the Shakers and the society in Gorham, Maine was organized. He was Elder of the Church Family in New Gloucester as well as first Minister of the Maine societies. He died at 85 on 4 july 1882. the song, in actuality, isn't a hymn at all. it was composed for dancing during Shaker worship. Traditionally, Shakers used one-verse songs (like "Simple Gifts") for dancing while hymns had two or more verses and were generally reserved for the opening and closing of the service. The late 1840's were probably the peak years for vigorous Shaker dancing--"Simple Gifts", being composed in 1848, was also titled "quick dance" in one manuscript. Despite being one of the more popular dance tunes of its time, it wasn't known to the rest of the "world's people" until Edward Deming Andrews included the song in his collection of Shaker tunes, published in 1940. That's where Copland found it for use in his ballet score of "Appalachian Spring" and later, arranged in his Old American Songs collection. taken from "Simple Gifts: Shaker simplicity in song" by Roger L. Hall in The Shaker Messenger. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: aldus Date: 19 May 98 - 12:28 PM The Tune was Written in Holland by a man called Janus Fijordsonn . It arrived In Englad, Suffolk wirh Dutch Fishermen. The Tune was often used in homemade lullabyes in Both Norfolk and Suffolk, it eventualy became common all over East Anglia..although there were so many different versions of it that It was rarely written down. The tune was taken to America where is also underwent many adaptations...the Shaker Hymn being one of them. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Ted from Australia Date: 27 May 98 - 08:51 AM G'Day Largo, Check this out |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Sean Date: 27 May 98 - 02:31 PM Aldus, That sounds interesting but after What Erica said you might want to provide some sources or other substanciation. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Art Thieme Date: 28 May 98 - 12:55 AM George and Gerry Armstrong were the FIRST FOLKIES TO RECORD THIS SONG! It was included in their very fine album for Folkways---now probably available by special order from Smithsonian-Folkways. George and Gerry Armstrong recorded this song a second time with their friends on the exceptional milestone LP __The Golden Ring__ on the great lebel I also did 2 LP's for---Folk Legacy---85 Sharon Mountain Road--Sharon Ct. 06069/The Patons & Folk Legacy have a website but can't look it up while on line... Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Largo Date: 28 May 98 - 02:14 AM Ted? How do you READ me?! :-) See, this thread's about the TUNE, not the SHOW. Or I miss something as usual? Cheers, Largo |
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Subject: Lyr Add: LORD OF THE DANCE (Sydney Carter) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 99 - 01:48 PM OK, I've moved this from another thread, so we don't get TOO confused. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: Lyr Add: LORD OF THE DANCE (Sydney Carter) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 99 - 02:30 PM Well, I guess I can't let it go by withough the correct lyrics. I think you've got a few words mixed up, Andreas. Try this: LORD OF THE DANCE words: Sydney Carter music "Simple Gifts" (Shaker Hymn) © 1963 Galliard, Ltd. I danced in the morning when the world was begun, And I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun, And I came down from heaven and I danced on the earth, At Bethlehem I had my birth. ChorusI danced for the Scribe and the Pharisee But they would not dance, they wouldn't follow me. I danced for the fishermen, for James and John, They came with me and the dance went on. I danced on the Sabbath and I cured the lame, The holy people said it was a shame, They whipped and they stripped and they hung me high, And they left me there on a cross to die. I danced on the Friday when the sky turned black, It's hard to dance with the Devil on your back, They buried my body, and they thought I'd gone But I am the dance and I still go on. They cut me down and I leaped up high, I am the life that will never, never die, I live in you if you'll live in me, I am the Lord of the Dance, said He. I've had trouble with the "devil on your back" line in the fourth verse, which is how I learned it. One source has it this way:It's hard to dance with the world upon your back.> That's a little more compatible with my theology. I think I'll do it that way, if I ever have to do it again. I have mixed feelings about this song. It's certainly catchy and people like to sing it, but words like "trite" and even "tacky" keep swirling in my head as I sing it. In college, I belonged to a youth group that sang this song to death, so I know all the verses, whether I like it or not. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Legal Eagle Date: 23 Jun 99 - 03:45 PM Hmm. Very interesting. I happen to have been talking to Sydney Carter's son Mike Carter, recently, and he accepts (if I understand him correctly) that the tune is traditional. Which may add some credibility to the Dutch theory of origin. And since lots of people remember that there was a hymn before Flatley, the $64,000 question must be, if you were John Doe and just heard of Flatley's show by name, would you have expected there to be some connection with the hymn? |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Penny S. Date: 23 Jun 99 - 07:20 PM The BBC ran a trailer for the Flatley show with the tag "This Easter, Michael Flatley if the Lord of the Dance!". (I've posted this before, I know, but it really goes down in my mind with the local pub which advertised "Make March ___ your Good Friday with 10% discount on lager at the _________" Penny |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Penny S. Date: 23 Jun 99 - 07:21 PM That was is, not if |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Susan of DT Date: 23 Jun 99 - 08:02 PM Yes, the copyright police got that one. Sydney Carter's publisher requested the removal of his songs from the database. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: MudGuard Date: 24 Jun 99 - 02:09 AM Joe, I will check whether I made mistakes when I wrote down the lyrics from listening to the song as soon as I get home again (not before the weekend...). But it might be that the Dubliners mixed those words up, not me... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: gargoyle Date: 24 Jun 99 - 11:11 AM Susan of DT- Could you post a list of the songs removed from the database by the copyright police? It would explain why material from two years ago does not show up today.
Besides it would be most interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jun 99 - 04:55 PM As a copyright lawyer I suppose I ought to sympathise with the composers, lyricists, and music publishers. And I do. They got to eat. The annoying part though is when you want a song, it can be very hard to trace who has the rights, and sometimes the song is out of print and so you can't get it. This cannot be good, for it deprives the composer of revenue. Were Warner Chappell (for I think it is they who are the Carter publishers) not interested in a deal at so many hundredths of a cent per download - which could have been charged with uplift to those who want to download copyright music? But I am much more worried by the disappearance of valuable recordings into record comapny archives, sometimes never to be seen again. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: MudGuard Date: 27 Jun 99 - 04:50 AM Hi Joe, I finally managed to come home and listen to the song again. With the "Scribes and Pharisees" it certainly makes more sense! And now I hear it that way too! That is always the problem with foreign languages - you only hear the words you know (or can think of at the moment you hear something...). Once you know what it is supposed to mean you notice it is very different from what you thought it meant. ;-) Andreas |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Arkie Date: 28 Jun 99 - 01:20 PM Regarding Michael Flatley's Lord of the Dance production, there is a thin storyline that involves a crucifixion and a resurrection of sorts. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Penny S. Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:16 PM Yes, but he's not exactly Christ-like, is he? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Susan of DT Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:30 PM Gargoyle - this is the first time there has been a request to remove songs from the database. We have permission from almost 200 songwriters to use their material. They realize that this is not commercial and that people who see their songs and like them are more likely to look for more songs to buy as books or recordings. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Tinker Date: 19 Sep 00 - 11:32 AM Just read the previous posts and needed to add that it doesn't do well in a choir setting, but it's a great circle dance with children. Circle Dancing through the chorus and either straight singing or with younger ones acting out the verses in the center. It's a dance! But please not the bunny hop even if THE GROUP SONGBOOK recomends it. If anyone wants simple choreography let me know Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Mooh Date: 19 Sep 00 - 11:51 AM According to my source, the stanzas are intended for a soloist and the refrain for "the people". This from a commentary on the "hymn" use of the song. I agree. Is this what you meant Tinker? Also, Shakers held celibacy as an original tenet of their faith, I think, but marriage was not prohibited, just thought of as less than perfect. Singing went from taboo to acceptance among the Shakers and there are Shaker song texts, I understand, though I've not seen one. Anyone know of a currently available one? I love the song, but Riverdance takes the lilt out of it too much for my tastes. Nonetheless, many people are exposed to it this way who wouldn't otherwise hear it. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: Burke Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:35 PM I learned Lord of the Dance in church youth group & liked it in that context. I've heard of it's use & parody in other contexts but have never been present at any of them. Haven't seen Michael Flatley's version either. Our church choir did the arrangment in Oxford Carols for Choirs last year. I did not like it much. Carter's publisher has an official Lord of the Dance Web page with words. I think it has music but my speakers are turned off right now. The Shakers did notate their music to share it with the other Shaker communities. I might post more info later about some recordings, but I see there's a link from the LOTD page to information as well. |
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Subject: Especially for Mooh From: Haruo Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:12 PM I think the text of Simple Gifts which I translated into Esperanto for my hymnal is a Shaker text. Here are both the English and my translation. Contemporary published sources for the English text include the Episcopal Church's Hymnal 1982 and the Disciples of Christ Chalice Hymnal. Incidentally, this thread (which I hadn't seen before) includes a lot of info about the tune that I hadn't known before. Another Carter hymn that I really like, and whose tune I think has got to have folk roots (even though I don't know and of course the Stainer & Bell folks claim he wrote it) is Said Judas to Mary, in the United Church of Christ's New Century Hymnal. Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: GUEST,nonmember Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:11 PM I had heard The Lord of the Dance years ago when my aunt listened to it and fell in love with the lyrics but I thought that there were more than five stanzas. Maybe I am wrong. She had a record of renessance songs and this song was on it. I have not been able to fine it since to be able to listen to it. |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:35 PM Five verses, that's all Sydney Carter wrote. He'd sometimes sing them differently - in the present tense for example "I dance in the morning..."
The tune of Judas and Mary: "Until the last two lines, the melody is similar in style to one that keeps turning up in English folk song" wrote Sydney in his notes to the song in in "Greenprint for Song."
Sydney Carter never really tried for originality in his tunmes, it just crept in from time to time when his voice adjusted the tune that he had in his mind when he was making up the song. And he was a words man in the first place:
"There is a danger, when musicians are about, that words may become little more than pegs on which to hang a note of music...To the folk singer, words are important. I will not say they are more important than music. Often the melody has more merit than the words; but the words, such as they are, must keep the quality of speech."
(Any time I quote Sydney Carter I come up against the problem of having to stop, because he always says something in the next paragraph which is spot on...) |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:15 PM It seems that Lord of the Dance is quite contemporary, and uses the tune from Simple Gifts. Several people have asserted that the tune can be found in an even earlier hymn, but so far - I think I've read everything - the earlier hymn is not specifically identified. dick g. above suggested a connection to a hymn called Confess Jehovah that I thought I might have. I did find the title - in Burl Ives Song Book, Ballantine Books. Front pages are missing from my copy, so can't give publication data, although the original price is shown as 60 cents - early 50s?. The BI song book opines "the pilgrims may well have sung this hymn ... from the Ainsworth Psalter..." but gives no other background info. As given there - two verses in 5/4 time, I don't see a "family tie" between the two tunes - based on a quick sight read. It's not unlikely the title is applied to other hymns, so this may just be the wrong one. John |
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Subject: RE: Lord of the dance - tune From: GUEST,Julia Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:37 PM I think perhaps those who pass off "Lord of the Dance " asa renaissance song may have it confused with "My Dancing Day" which ahs a very similar theme Tomorrow shall be my dancing day I would my true love did so chance To see the legend of my play To call my true love to my danec Sing oh, my love Oh my love, my love, my love Thus have I done for my true love Then it goes on through Jesus' life In a mange laid and wrapt was I so very poor this was my chance Betweixt and Ox and silly poor Ass To call my true love to my dance etc etc
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