BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Janie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 05:08 PM

If I ain't a gonna expend the energy to check my spelling, I sure ain't gonna expend the energy to go beyond 'my bad' :>)

Specific to Mudcat, I do wish it had a spell check feature. Typing to another program with spell check and then copying the edited result to here doesn't make having written conversations worth the effort, much, though not all of the time. I am not an effective proof reader of my own work. I don't know what has happened to my spelling, which used to be quite good. Now I often can not remember how to spell words, or don't recognize that I am mispelling them. On top of that, I am not a great typist. Whine, whine, whine.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 05:32 PM

GUEST,mg said, in part:

I agree with Janie and Uncle DaveO,though, a creative writer will use various voices depending on their characters and thus "correct" grammar will vary also.

Yes, mg, that's right. But I wasn't referring to the language you'd put in the mouths of fictional characters. I meant our own voices in different circumstances.

What I meant (and evidently didn't make clear) is that we tend, sometimes unconsciously and sometimes by design, to blend into the society we frequent. If I should be (as occasionally has happened) in the company of garage mechanics and truck drivers and other good ole boys from southern Indiana for a period of time, my pronunciation, my vocabulary, and my grammar will tend to blend toward their dialect. If I go all the way, I'll be adopting the grammar of that dialect. In that company, that's not ungrammatical, except if one tried to judge it by the standards of a more formal dialect that just doesn't apply.

I worked for many years for a federal judge--a brilliant, well-educated man with a doctorate in law from times before a mere law degree got to be called a "Juris Doctor". His legal writings were not only well-reasoned but expressed in fine grammatical English style.

But there were times when, in an access of informality, he'd come out with shocking down-home southern Indiana expressions like, "I come downtown and eat breakfast this morning," which would never, ever, have flowed from his pen. He was speaking in dialect, by reflex.

I remember teasing him a little about this in an informal setting, and I said, "I think, back in the days when the Judge was engaged in down-and-dirty politics in southern Indiana, he spoke as his constituents did for political effect, and blended with the voters so thoroughly he internalized their way of speaking, and it's still there years later, just waiting for an opportunity to break out."

He nodded. "That's right."

To one degree or another we all do that.

No grammatical scheme is absolute in all circumstances. There is no such thing as "The English Language;" there are only many dialects we lump into a group we call "English". So far as that goes, there is no "Language"; it's all dialect. And every dialect has its own grammar.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 05:36 PM

Little Hawk, you said (and in a thread about good writing and grammar, no less!):

This could yet become a classic thread for we pedantic types to frolic in...


"For we"???

That would be "for us pedantic types to frolic in." Tut-tut!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:30 PM

for us pedantic types to frolic in.

Never use a preposition to end a sentence with :-)

How about "in which we pedantic types can frolic"?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:35 PM

That's more or less a myth--prepositions are okay to end sentences with. ;-D It's a normal speech pattern, many people have stopped fighting it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Janie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:40 PM

Dave O. is not only write. He is also right. (See what I mean about being proofreading challenged? I've come back to this thread several times, and just now caught that one.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:58 PM

A classic frolicking ground for us who are pedants.

"My bad" is perfectly acceptable vernacular American English. It is not formal language. It has become widely used as informal acknowledgment of error. And it is a LOT faster to say than, "That was my mistake. which I acknowledge."




A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 12:58 AM

Uncle DaveO was wrong in one instance, though.:-) It was me he was quoting rather than mg about agreeing with him and Sins, etc.

And further, Dave, I know what you mean. My dad used to drive my mother nuts when he would get on the phone with other oilfield workers. He'd slip into the "ain'ts" and other "improper" words/grammar when she knew darn good and well he knew better. It was his way of working with them, though. He never held himself above any of the workers, even if he did have a marvellous command of the language.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 01:34 AM

I've always been a bit parsimonious about parsing. But I know one shouldn't use "But" or "and" at the beginning of a well-written sentences; one's likely to get a foot up the butt! Although around here it's usually expressed as "a foot up the khyber!"

I'll get out of your way now.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 01:43 AM

Write the way you talk (see above). What is the purpose of your writing (know your audience, see above)? If you are writing for yourself then the problems should be minimal. For a class? Find out what the instructor considers grade A work. For a Publisher or an editor? Good luck. If one should take time to actually comment on your submission, highly value whatever they tell you.

If you write using your normal speech patterns and grammar, the creative process will flow much easier. Never consider your first draft a finished work. Get it down. Work it. re-work it. Let it incubate. Come back to it after a while. Show it to another writer whom you trust, or who you trust. Details like grammar you can work out later.

Read Hemmingway, Mark Twain, Jack London (his "Martin Eden" is a fine read, semi autobiographical, about a young writer, no less!), Jack Kerouc, Ray Bradbury, etc. Read the greats and study how they do it. Tennesee Williams uses a million words, like little bush strokes in a magnificent painting. Hemmingway paints a picture with a few broad strokes and leaves you to fill in the details. Develop your own style.

You asked the question so I have to assume you enjoy writing. Make the enjoyment your highest goal. If other people enjoy what you have created so much the better, but have a blast doing it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 03:06 AM

Actually, Uncle DaveO, I agonized for at least 30 seconds over whether to type "us pedantic types" or "we pedantic types". I did. I finally settled on "we pedantic types" because it seemed like the better choice. If I were to go into the deeply complex issues concerning why it seemed to be the better choice, I fear it would take an inordinate amount of time and typing.

Therefore, I'm not going to. ;-)

I also agonized briefly about whether to end the same sentence with the preposition "in". Very briefly. ;-) ;-) I think it's okay to end sentences with prepositions.

Like my dog, I am a law unto myself, so I do all these things with the sublime assurance that I am right, after agonizing for what seems a suitable period of time.... (big grin)

Amos, I realize that "my bad" is considered acceptable by many people now. But then, so is rap music! I rest my case. (smile)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 07:14 AM

Was that really you, Uncle DaveO, writing about "an access of informality"? Oh dear....

I'm drifting towards Amos's position re depending on who/whom one is writing for - but I don't buy his explanation. For a start, what he cites as a parallel example (depending on whom's ox...) introduces the posessive case. In the original we're looking at a noun clause I think. Thus it could have been "depending on the weather." So I think we parse it independently of all else. In that case the verb (with auxiliary) is "is writing" and "one" is the subject. Ergo "whom/whom" is the object so "whom" is correct.

Little Hawk and mg, it is verbs that take objects, not prepositions.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 10:16 AM

Peter K, yes, that was me--or I suppose I should say "that was I".

And I meant it. You apparently thought I meant "excess". I meant the word "access".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 10:27 AM

BTW - ending with a preposition and splitting infinitives were rules formulated out of classical Latin, in which neither could be applied. Why on earth we should continue to apply the rules of a long dead language is somewhat a mystery. Double negatives, while ungainly, can sometimes be effective. The mathematical rule that two negatives make a possitive do not apply to langiage.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM

...or even langUage

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 10:51 AM

The rare use of 'access' to mean 'a moment of' (for example, "swept up in an access of generosity" is perfectly correct, and honorable the more for its rarity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 11:04 AM

Another definition of "access" is that in The Random House Dictionary of the English Language:

an attack or onset, as of disease

I remember the account of some ancient philosopher (please don't ask me his name), of whom it was said, "In an access of anger, he struck and killed his wife."

I meant "access", and frankly, never thought of it as an unusual usage.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 11:25 AM

I asked my dog about that, Peter. He says you're wrong. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 06:46 PM

1. Write about what you know

2. Make it short, sweet and to the point

3. Remember your audience

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 07:02 PM

Kat,

Writing is personal. The only absolute is communication.   You can have bad grammar, run-on sentences and all kinds of faux-pas but if you read what passes for journalism today, you find that the techniques and rules are somewhat irrelevant.

As a writer, I wouldn't try to write like anyone else. I wouldn't even bother to read about the lives of great writers because they are in and out of vogue like pop songs.

As a writer, you look for the nugget that you want to express and pare it down until you get there.

I guess if you want to get a job with a particular mag or paper, you gotta' know something about their writing style. But there is a danger here. It could emerge phony by conformity.

As an editor, you have to see what works for the medium.

If you read something, and it's communicating, it jumps out at you from the paper.

If you are an editor, you will look for what will sell your mag or paper.

Editing is re-writing without re-writing the intention or the style of the writer.

Analogy, directing or producing a musical artist.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 07:34 PM

Pter:

Under what?

Underwear!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 08:05 PM

Frank, I greatly appreciate your comments; I agree and have used such thinking in most of the writing I've done over the past thirty years, including for various newspapers and for my recent book. I've also edited for a couple of other writers, recently.

I know what you mean about handling artists. I was chief cook and bottle washer for my brother for over twenty years, promoting him and his classical compositions on a next to nothing budget. Heck I even sang and turned pages at a couple of concerts AND hand-dubbed a ton of cassettes. Lotsa fun for a bit.

The senior editor at the freelance job place to which I applied asked the thread title question of me and I was just interested in what Mudcatters had to say. (I thought it would be a fun thread and it has been!:-)I've already sent in my answer (posted previously) and my editing test, so am just waiting to hear back from them, now.

Now, I am really under the gun as I signed up for a booth at the Wyoming Book Festival coming up on the 15th. Having to get handouts ready, a new website up and running, and books ordered! It's exciting, but a little nervewracking.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:26 PM

of course prepositions take objects. Haven't you heard of the object of a preposition? And certainly in Latin they do too. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:40 PM

From this site on grammar, for example:

" THE OBJECT OF THE PREPOSITION

Prepositions are small words that create a relationship between other words in a sentence by linking phrases to the rest of the sentence.

The nouns that follow them are objects of the preposition.

[In the following examples, the object of the preposition is bold and the preposition is underlined.]

From the beginning of the storm, Dorothy was sure she would make it home.
BEGINNING is the object of the preposition FROM and STORM is the object of the preposition OF.

For many in the class, math proved to be the most challenging subject.
You can find the object of the preposition by asking the question WHAT? about the preposition. e.g. For what? MANY. In what? CLASS.

Until sunrise, the SWAT team will hide in the marsh.
The preposition UNTIL serves to connect its object (SUNRISE) with the main clause. The preposition IN connects its object MARSH to the verb, making the whole phrase part of the complete predicate.

The fuzzy, red cat on the fence wanders among the houses.
FENCE acts as the object of the preposition ON. The whole phrase acts as part of the complete subject. HOUSES is the object of the preposition AMONG. The whole phrase acts as part of the complete predicate.

When a pronoun acts as an object of the preposition, it must take the objective case.

[In the following examples, the object of the preposition is bold and the preposition is underlined.]

Bill was more than a little irritated when the water balloon fell on him.
HIM acts as the object of the preposition ON. It is incorrect to write fell on HE.

Theo gave a dollar to Stephen and me to go to the store.
Both STEPHEN and ME act as the object of the preposition TO. It would be incorrect to write TO STEPHEN AND I.

It seems like a waste of time for you and me to drive to Portland for the game.
Both YOU and ME act as the object of the preposition FOR."

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:45 PM

Kat you are amazing. So what happened with your brother's classical compositions?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:10 AM

Either that or I get bored easily, Donuel!**bg** Thanks.

He's still at it, writing an opera of the Southwest right now; ancient beings, metaphysics, etc. We have three fully-orchestrated piano concertos, three fully-orchestrated symphonies, piano suites, solo pieces, and several songs. ALL tonal, yet modern. We have a live performance of his tone poem, Ode to the Rockies, which was recorded on analogue was back when in the 80's and which I did have some CDs of; just haven't kept them up as I quit doing his stuff to work on my own. We also had a tape, made live, of an all-Hudson concert (that's him) at the Music Mansion in Providence, RI which we used to sell on tape and transferred to CD, but I'd have to scare one of them up, too, if anyone was interested. He played all of the piano pieces for that and had a professional opera singer do some stuff from his second symphony. I turned pages, wrote the copy, designed the programs, bought the clothes, etc., etc. and my husband borrowed a tv camera from the station he worked at to record it, so we have video, too. Some time I hope to get it transferred and up on youtube. There's a lot more I could say because I truly do love his music, but I cannot work with him, at least not much. He's a typical genius artist...brilliant and difficult.:-) Thanks for asking...I haven't done that in a long time and it does make me sad sometimes to know what is sitting in our closet.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:52 AM

Little Hawk asked for examples of writing for usual clients versus writing for the Chinese clients. My husband is going to supply them soon.

Here are some things I've noticed, but they have to do with format, not with composition.

1. I refuse to read to big blocks in italics. It's just too hard.

2. I refuse to read stuff typed in a dialect. It wastes my time.

3. I refuse to read a block of print that takes up more than one-third of the my screen. It's too verbose.

4. As is well known already, block capitals are hard to read.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 10:35 AM

Leeneia, your items 1 and 4, relating to italics and all caps, it seems to me, are essentially the same. This is not a criticism, but my observation.

In each case, the physical representation of the letters and words forces an extra visual/mental conversion, so to speak, to what might be called standard expectation. A minimal step, to be sure, but a step. I find the conversion from italics to standard writing less of a problem than the conversion from all caps to standard. The use of italics for a word here or there, or for a book title, say, or a short quotation, is soon over and forgotten, but with larger blocks of italics or caps it becomes fatiguing.

Your item 2, dialect, probably comes to much the same thing. Of course "typed in dialect" might mean different things. If it refers to an attempt to phonetically indicate a dialectal pronunciation scheme (which I'm guessing is what you mean), it certainly can become obtrusive. Much like the use of italics and caps, a dialectal word here or there for "seasoning", so to speak, is absorbed without particular difficulty, but if there's an overload of phonetic representation it quickly becomes oppressive because of the constant semiconscious conversions that are forced.

Your number 3, large blocks of text, long paragraphs, may be related to the above. With long paragraphs a portion of one's attention has to be applied constantly, just keeping track of where one is in that big slug of stuff. Of course the rule is that a paragraph should represent one basic thought, but what constitutes a thought is a matter of judgment. An excessively long paragraph usually suggests to me that the writer hasn't really worked out what the real thought(s) is/are.

So all of your four points are related to some degree.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 11:00 AM

Interesting. My sister who is partially blind has said all caps are easier for her to read.

Also, I can think of many instances, here on the Mudcat, where I have learned a lot of delightful stuff through reading dialect. It may take a bit more time, but as a writer, especially, I appreciate expanding my knowledge that way.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 11:04 AM

"I refuse to read stuff typed in a dialect. It wastes my time." - leenia

Fine. That's your subjective viewpoint, leenia, and that's okay. The thing that strikes me about it, though, is this:

Anything is a "waste of time" to the person who thinks it's a waste of time, but may not be to another person. For instance, I find watching (or playing) football to be a complete waste of MY time. Many other people love to watch or play football. I find party politics to be a waste of time. Many people take party politics very seriously. I find writing or reading stuff in dialect to be endlessly amusing and entertaining, because dialects and accents intrigue me. You find it a waste of time to read something written in dialect. I have memorized the names and the technical info about every danged battleship and heavy cruiser in the World War II Japanese Navy, because I find that fascinating for some reason. Most people couldn't name even one of them, and wouldn't care a hoot if they could... ;-)

So it goes. ;-) It's all quite arbitrary. Anything can be utterly fascinating to one person and completely pointless to another.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:18 PM

"I have memorized the names and the technical info about every danged battleship and heavy cruiser in the World War II Japanese Navy,..."

            And the Japanese Battle ships with 18 inch guns were?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

That would be the Yamato and the Musashi. They mounted the largest guns ever put on battleships, and were the largest 2 battleships ever built. The Yamato is very famous, but the Musashi less so, perhaps because Musashi was the 2nd one built, and the first of the two to be sunk. Musashi deserves more fame, I think, because she absorbed the most incredible number of bomb and torpedo hits before finally going down in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. No battleship ever put up a more dogged fight against air attack than Musashi did.

Yamato, however, met the more dramatic fate of being destroyed almost alone (aside from a few small escorts), being overwhelmed by several hundred USA carrier planes in 1945, late in the war...and going down on what was clearly a suicide mission. She sailed for Okinawa with only enough fuel to reach the target....an enormous American invasion fleet...and die there fighting against impossible odds.

That's drama! Yamato's last mission was nothing less than a seaborne kamkikaze attack against utterly hopeless odds, a deliberate sacrifice for honor's sake alone...a Wagnerian charge into the abyss.

As such, the Yamato has been very well remembered, specially in Japan. The ship has virtually become a religious icon there. There are scale more models available of it than of any other ship in history (with the German Bismark probably coming in second to that). A very good movie was made in Japan about Yamato a couple of years ago. I recommend it.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:46 PM

So sorry, DaveO. "Access" to mean "onset" or any other noun is usage I had never encountered. But there it is, writ large in my own dictionary. Oh dear.

And apologies too to mg and LH. Here I have some slight defence in that the authority on which I have hitherto depended, (A Manual of English Grammar by Theophilus D Hall MA, London 1905, LOL) has a different take on prepositions from that quoted by Amos.

Thus: "A Preposition is a word which (should be "that" in my view) shows the relation of one Noun to another. [Examples given.] All prepositions appear to have been originally Adverbs. Prepositions are usually put before Nouns and Pronouns which they connect with some preceding Noun, Adjective or Verb. [Examples.] When a Preposition connects Noun with Noun, the relation is between one object and another; when it connects a Noun with an Adjective, the relation is between the Quality expressed by the Adjective and the Noun; when it connects a Noun with a Verb, the relation is between an action and its effect." Etc, etc.

I retained Theophilus's use of caps because a significant part of my defence is that neither occurances of "object" takes initial cap - ie they are used as general, not grammatical terms. I must now consult other authorities on English English grammar in case this is one of those points of departure between English English and American English. But that's just out of curiosity: I don't regard one as more valid than the other.

Anyway, apologies again - I bow to George's dog.

Re Kat's point about the readability of block caps, my brother is registered blind (but has some sight) and prefers caps for anything up to a few words. But for text of sentence length or longer he favours upper and lower. (In all cases he uses powerful enhancement aids.) Research in the UK over a long period has shown that most people much prefer u/l for block text - it seems we tend to recognise words more by their overall shapes than by reading each character. Word shapes are obviously much better differentiated in lower case than in caps. (Use a rule or something to obscure the top half or the bottom half of a line of text and the impact on readability is likely to be greater if the text is all caps.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:38 PM

Handsomely said, my friend. ;-) My dog will now deign to allow you to approach, offer him a treat, and pat the royal head....while he decides whether to rank you among "favored guests" or just "someone else to bark at".

Interesting point about recognizing the shapes of words, and why that is so much easier with lower case! I'd never thought of that, but it is the key to why it's a lot harder to read stuff that is all caps...it doesn't have peaks and valleys to give it a recognizable overall shape.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:23 PM

Well Miz Kat, I reckon yall gotcherself jes bout all tha gud advice thair iz but eevin wif my fine forth grayd edgeekashun I cant figger out most uv whut wuz sed. But iffen you got it rite about ritin then thatz all rite. Tha reel thing iz jes soze yall can tell sumbuddy whutcha meen. Sum folks never seem ta git the hang uv it. Liken that Shambles guy that Spaw uzed ta pick on. Now me, I jes cud never figger out whut it wuz he wuz agoin on bout whitch I thot wuz cawse he wuz a furriner and all but Catspaw sez he wuz reely jes a dumbfuck. Sorry fer the bad word but thetz whut Catspaw sez.

Yer Buddee

CLETUS HARDDINGER

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 11:20 PM

Cletusdarlin'!! How in the aitch are yew!!?? Haven't seen yew in forever, man. 'Course, I cain't say I've missed cleaning up the litterbox, but I could almost say so...it's so danged good to seeya! But, I gotta ask...what's with the hard dinger? I nevah heerd o'one o'them before...iz the clapper in yer bell too hard, or wot? luvyabucketsmskat

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 12:26 AM

Cletus, I know you think you are the world's leading stupe...but you're not.   Shane is. Trust me. He makes your life look almost sentient.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 01:12 AM

Show, don't tell.

Remember that the rules of grammer are there for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM

Read Raymond Carver.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 12:25 PM

Spaw, I mean Cletus, you are delightful.

Yes, it's true that my refusal to read much in italics, caps, or dialect is a personal thing. I freely admit it. I'm sure, however, that many people feel the same way. I bring it up so that the person who has something really important to say will get it across to the maximum number of readers.
===
Somewhere I learned that good readers use the empty space around letters as much as they use the letters themselves. That is one reason why novelty fonts are not popular - the negative space is the wrong shape. Once I had to deal with a document where the lines of print were much too close together, so that the spaces between lines was almost gone. It was miserable.

When I read that, I knew why I have never been able to deal with block chords in music. When the notes are stacked atop one another, the empty space around the notehead is gone, and I rely on that empty space. I just pencil in what the chord is and go one my merry way.

(Still working on the Chinese client matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 12:55 PM

Aye, leenia, Ah ken whit ye're on aboot....but whit d' ye find sae distairbin' aboot text whit is rendered in quasi-dialect fae the amusement of muckle a guid soul? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 01:25 PM

And whit d' ye call yon "delightful" ramblings of Cletus...if not "dialect"???? If ye're willin' tae read Cletus wi-oot objection then ye shuid be willin' tae read Scots dialect wi-oot objection too!

Ah detect a wee bit of prejudice in yer double standard!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 01:31 PM

leenia -

Not everyone speaks or writes in standard English. In fact, most of us don't. Unfamiliar dialects may be difficult to understand, at first, but it was a real breakthrough when I read Zora Neale Hurston who wrote in an African American dialect. After reading her, I went on to read other African American authors and enjoyed the colour and the texture of the language.

If you can't write the way the characters actually speak, it sounds false and isn't it the objective of a good writer to speak the truth? Besides that, the page is an empty canvas and if you write in a language that is not your own, the words become white on white. Standard English can be quite boring and contrived.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:13 PM

Hey folks, leeneia said it's a personal thing, not something she is trying to shove down anyone's throat.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:15 PM

Miztur Little Hawk........Ime feelin purtee bad cuz I cant figger out nairy a word thet ya rit up thair. Catspaw sez its okay cuz yer a broke dick mahmuhluka or sumpin. I dunno whut he ment by thet but I am rite sorry bout yer dick but iffen ya got it inna cast yer probly poplar with the wimminfolk.

Hope it still works fer ya after it heelz up.

CLETUS HARDDINGER

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:15 PM

Ah'm jest tryin' tae have a wee bit of fun here. Dinna take it awe sae seriously! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:23 PM

Ach, lad, ya sound like a bagpipe bein' played through a tin dustbin.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:29 PM

Aye! That Ah do. Sae bonny a style o' speech, dinna ya think? Whit a wonderful worrrld we wuid have if awe the people used Scots dialect!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:10 PM

I have heard the Scots is not a dialect but its own standalone whatever..related to Freesian..they say the Scots and Freesian people can understand each other. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:43 PM

Kat, it seems you have the answer to the question already.

It's a fun thread, though.

Writing is such a personal matter that like taste is music as it evokes passionate debate. Some are grammarians, and some just free-flow. Some can combine the two.

I like writing that evokes personal feelings. I like writing that paints pictures and moves with action. I like writing that gives an insight into the writer. I like words to do what they need to do, be written bold, italic, block, dialect or dirty as long as they convey emotion, elicit empathy and excitement.

If a writer does a run-on sentence or a paragraph and a half to suggest a single idea, it better be a good one otherwise my patience runs out. If I find something like this, I generally rewrite it for myself in my head.

Maybe the answer is that there are no absolutes in good writing. "Good" is too general a term. I want to rephrase the question. What are elements of interesting and arresting writing? What makes a reader eager to turn the page or to read on?

Frank