BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:41 AM

Anybody else feel like this country is in some kind of time warp?

This case, (a white guy with a gun who outweighs the young black youth by 100 pounds and is obviously stalking the kid using equally obvious racial profiling and language to boot) and others like it seem to be too common anymore. And something like that is common?

We are trying to dismantle social programs, women's issues are regressing back well past 50 years ago, health care goes back in lockstep with the rest, and we are approaching another Truman-Dewey election, and all the while fervently praying to god with more ardor than ever as we ask for his blessing on this on all of this shit????

I used to worry about the future but now I don't as it really isn't the future where we're going but the past!   Wake me up when we get back to about 1775 or so. I want to have a few words with with Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and a few other guys.....kinda' plant a little bug in their ears........


Spaw


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Yeah, Spaw, like I said- we sure have come a long way from Emmett Till & Hattie Carroll, ain't we?

I dunno, tho, about a time warp. Maybe just a case of collective delusion, and we convinced ourselves thatt things were much inmproved over the 1950's & 60's, when in fact nothing had really changed at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:32 AM

"Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped"

So without Richard's trickery of words, that translates to George not having any conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:37 AM

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zimmerman has some kind of connection to a police force, like as a paid informant or something along that line. The fact that those charges against him were dismissed and that it appears he is being given special treatment in not even being arrested let alone, charged looks pretty suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:46 PM

Yeah, Spawzer... You got it... The right wing in this country is trying to leap back to the 1800s...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

A quite detailed and interesting legal analysis by Andrew Cohen (he's also legal analyst for 60 Minutes and CBS Radio News) of "the details and unanswered questions that will come to light when the case goes to court next month" is here: Trayvon Martin's Killer Was Looking for Trouble -- and Found It (article at The Atlantic online).

That article has a link to an article in the Miami Herald (which may have been linked further upthread here), Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops, which details Zimmerman's history as the head (and apparently sole member) of the neighborhood watch.

I don't think it likely there's any particular conspiracy here. There is a well-intentioned person who built himself into an overzealous mindset of responsibility and authority -- who carried a gun, and who had a certain picture in his mind of what a criminal looked like. In spite of the neighborhood being 20% African American, a black person was a potential criminal:

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old [neighborhood resident] who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

I'm not seeing mentioned much that Zimmerman did end up with a wound on the back of his head. There was some physical struggle. But the whole encounter should never have started.

As a mother of a white 17-year-old boy, I was struck by these comments by a young (20s) black couple who live in the neighborhood (from the Miame Herald article):

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a "pretty cool dude," Ibrahim Rashada said.

"He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns," he said. "He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

"I do have a weapon, but I don't walk around the neighborhood with mine!"

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

"I fit the stereotype he emailed around," he said. "Listen, you even hear me say it: 'A black guy did this. A black guy did that.' So I thought, 'Let me sit in the house. I don't want anyone chasing me.' "

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband's rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

"That's so sad," she said. "I hope our child doesn't have to go through that."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:32 PM

"Court documents obtained by The Orlando Sentinel Wednesday afternoon reveal domestic violence allegations surrounding George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Records show that Zimmerman's ex-fiancé filed a petition against him for allegedly pushing her in her home after insisting he leave in August 2005. The woman said Zimmerman became upset over not receiving and took her cell phone before shoving her. A fight broke out between the two with the woman's dog biting Zimmerman in the cheek.

Zimmerman filed his own petition, claiming his ex-fiancé started the fight by inviting him over and refused to give him the documents he owned, which included mortgage papers and a car loan.

The ex-fiancé also reported that Zimmerman grouped her against her wishes in 2002 and "open handed smacked" her in the mouth in 2003. She wrote that during the alleged groping, Zimmerman "said he could because I was his woman."

Zimmerman however claimed he was the victim, alleging that his ex-fiancé assaulted him with a baseball bat after attending a concert together in November 2002.

Based on their petitions against each other, Zimmerman and his ex-fiancé were given restraining orders, with both expiring on August 24, 2006.

Zimmerman is currently hiding, as Martin's family and many others locally and nationally call for his arrest. A grand jury will investigate the case starting April 10."

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:23 PM

""Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005,""

That explains a lot. Sapling's after equalling Daddy Shrub's body count.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:09 PM

He does seem to get into a lot of confrontations and claim that he was the victim.

There is a pattern of paranoid behaviour emerging.

"It's not me guv, it's all the others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

George Herbert Walker Bush was a better statesman and strategist than his sons will ever be. He was the one who put the no-fly zone in place that kept Saddam in line for years. Clinton enforced it just the way Bush I set it up. It was Dubya who decided he could do better.

I've heard Jeb is the smarter of the Bush sprouts. He'll be in town to speak on Friday, but I'm not planning to attend.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Well when it makes The Torygraph , SOMETHING has to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:03 PM

This guy is going down... 48 hours and he'll be arrested...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Becky, I want to add my thanks to Spaw's for hunting out and posting the links you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:26 PM

Before anyone comments further, please go read Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman "On the Psychology of Killing". He is a Professor of Psychology at West Point, and an Army Ranger.

What you hear of this incident will make perfect sense.

One key idea is "dehumanization", as exemplified by the quote "Fucking Coon".

Okay 2nd amendment people...how do you keep guns out of the hands of the Zimmermans of the world. Really. How?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:18 AM

According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, the recording clearly showed George Zimmerman feared for his life and the lives of others.

It is not a clear cut case.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:46 AM

I have just searched the Daily Mail site and do not find any such reports. While looking I did find this (not on the Daily Mail site): -

http://xxlittlethoughts.tumblr.com/post/19661288191/what-everyone-should-know-about-trayvon-martin

I would also point out that there is no record (that I have found) of Trayvon Martin having been examined for any other injuries than the gunshot wound.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

We here so much this side of the water about the great christian belief of america, perhaps those with guns would do better to give more consideration to the 6th commandment rather than the 2nd amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:47 AM

Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:59 AM

CNN has enhanced the audio, and its technicians cannot confirm any use of the word "coon" or any other racial epithet.

There apperars to have been a scuffle, since police saw that Zimmerman's back was wet, and his nose was bleeding.

Two neighbors say they saw Zimmerman astride Martin's back, pinning him to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM

Thanks for that Lighter. I knew someone had added that word to bolster up their twisted side of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

At no time did I say that Zimmerman had been convicted. He was charged as I stated.   He had also reportedly created trouble in the community by his eager vigilantism.



I have found no trace of any charge against Martin, nor anything other than favourable reports of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:10 AM

Not only, anonymous guest, can I find no trace of what you say the Daily Mail said, I also can't find any trace of what "guest, lighter" reports CNN as saying, but I can find ABC commenting on the apparent use of the word "coon".

I think you ought to verify your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:33 AM

Guest - you quoted the Daily Mail as saying "According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, "

I've been reading the Daily Mails articles and missed those references. Can you provide a link? From everything I've read Martin WAS visiting someone in that community. His fathers girlfriend. I can find no references in ANY article that Martin ever sold drugs. So can you provide your sources?

Doesn't it sound like a jury should decide exactly what happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:43 AM

Here's a CNN story, including the audio in which they can't confirm the racial slur. Seems pretty clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM

Listening to that it sounds clear as day to me "fucking coons".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Sounds like it to me, even before the audio work. Not clear, but I can't think of any alternative pair of words that it could be instead, with that sort of intonation, and I think anyone claiming that it was something else would have to suggest what it could be, and convince the hearers of that alternative.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:19 AM

Yep. Maybe they want people to listen for themselves instead of trying to convince people to believe it's what someone else says it is. Also, they might not have been able to play it over and over if the acknowledged it was "fucking coons" because of the censors. Sort of like "if you disagree that's what he says, then its' acceptable to play it 20 times." Those who claim that's not what he said can't complain when it's played on the air so everyone who wants to can hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:28 AM

These words are not on the recording. Accept the fact that if the man had committed a crime, he would have been charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Anonymous guest, you have no comprehension of the layers of the judical process here. The feds will pick up the slack where lax state law has let too many murders go unchallenged. And this state law will probably be overturned in the supreme court because this is the case that will break that camel's back.

One should never have to accept a racist act as legal, just because a flawed law was put in place to protect such acts. Truth will out, and a sense of fair play will come into this.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:20 AM

I've just heard CNN play the tape over and over as a journalist and an audio tech try to determine what Zimmerman is muttering.

They agreed it *could* be "fucking coons." The journalist said he wouldn't be able to swear to it, and the tech seemed to agree. So CNN has not been able to confirm what Zimmerman said.

Point One. If a sound expert and a careful listener can't tell what's being said while standing right next to the speakers as the sound is being "cleaned" and enhanced, you're not going be able to tell by listening to the sound of a raw tape (or even the enhanced tape) played through your radio or TV set.

Point Two. I certainly couldn't tell what the words were through my speakers. I'm not even sure he said "fucking," though he may have. CNN, however, was pretty sure that he did.

Point Three. It might help to know what Zimmerman ordinarily sounds like. Being familiar with his accent (and, yes, everybody has one) is necessary. Was he drunk? Was he high? That could influence the sound of his words - not to mention the precise charges to be brought.

Point Four. I've spent many hours transcribing poor-quality tapes. You'd be amazed at how deceptive they can be. What sounds (sort of) clear as day one minute can sound like gibberish the next. And vice versa. Try the threads on James M. Carpenter's sea shanty recordings and you'll see just how inconsistent transcriptions can be.

Point Four: On a bad recording, unless you've had training you will often hear the words you expect to hear.

Point Five. CNN has extremely sophisticated equipment. Maybe somebody has something better. The only people qualified to determine for sure what was said would be a combination of audio experts and specialists in articulatory phonetics, In other words, experts. And a jury may have to decide whose experts are more likely to be right.

I wouldn't advise convicting someone on the basis of a barely audible recording. (Which has nothing to do with the bigger question of whether Zimmerman caused a wrongful death.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:35 PM

Very analytical. Sounds clear as day to me.

And for the benefit of anyone foolish enough to believe that all those committing crimes automatically go to jail without passing "go", did I not see that there have been votes of no confidence passed in the local police?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

It sounded clear to me on the CNN story, but would I have heard the same thing if I hadn't had the words in my mind beforehand? Here at Mudcat our familiarity with Mondegreens and the difficulty of transcribing text from recordings should make us cautious on that front. In that example it disturbs me that we're listening to that 1.6 seconds of sound out of its context.

Today's news: the Sanford police chief has temporarily stepped down (Miami Herald).

Wow - also on the home page of the Miami Herald, "a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death." link

It seems seriously screwed up to me that the Stand Your Ground law is interpreted as precluding a jury trial. The police or a judge can toss out any charges preemptively.

Florida legislators who wrote the law say they did not intend that it work that way. Looks like they'd best get busy re-writing it.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

Point One: Zimmerman/Zantzinger shot this unarmed man down withoput just cause. I don't give a rat's ass whether or nort he muttered "fucking coons" before he did so.

Point 2: Its murder. Put the asshole in the can for the rest of his natural life. We've altready wasted too much time on this piece of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:22 PM

"If he muttered "fucking coons", according to CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin, "It's extremely, extremely significant because the federal government is not allowed to prosecute just your ordinary, everyday murder," he said. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:39 PM

Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime.

What? Why does it need to be a federal crime? If someone ends up dead in a street fight why should the other person not stand trial for it? What a weird country you live in...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:51 PM

1) Canada can be weird, but not as weird as the US, and
2) You might look smarter if you read the WHOLE sentence you're quoting from. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:56 PM

By the way, murder is not a federal crime unless special circumstances exist. Racial hatred is one of those circumstances. Otherwise, it's a local issue, and I think many of us may not feel great about the local justice system.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

I'm not convinced by the idea that I'm going to hear what I have been primed to hear argument. Even though I have thought that the classic example of mishearing "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" for "send reinforcements. we're going to advance" would not have worked down a field telephone in time of battle, unless the recipient was an idiot, because he would have expected a message about military matters.

In this case, we have two words which were linked in the mind of the speaker, and expressed strongly, like expletives. They sounded like English, not like a Latin language. The first one definitely had the "uckin" sound in the middle, with a strong suggestion of "ng" at the end. I wasn't so sure of the "f", but it wasn't a sound like "m" for example, and involved some breath sound. The second began with the same sound as in the middle of the first word, and had a long "oo" in the middle, ending with an "s", which is always more audible, hence whispering is not a good way to be unheard.

ducking coots? bucking cooks? hucking coombs? sucking coops? They have to be words which make sense together and in the context, don't they?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:24 PM

I am baffled how "stand your ground" becomes "Chase someone and kill them".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:58 PM

BTW... Sign the petition!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:15 PM

When a law like this is vaguely written and allows such a wide amount of interpretation it is destined for something like this. Justice is involved now and since all it takes for them to be ask to investigate a possible hate crime has already been met, it may take time but we will see some action here. There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

After a vote of "No Confidence" from the city council, the Chief of Police has "temporarily stepped aside" but his job will be toast and he'll be reeenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Thhttp://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-sparks-dialogue-on-racial-inequality-meaning-of-justice/?hpt=hp_t2 thoughtful blog essay on CNN.

On Morning Addition this morning, an interview with writer Donna Britt and two of her sons-A mom's advice to her young black sons.

Whether or not Zimmerman used a racial slur is indeed important if it makes the difference with whether the feds can get involved if necessary. Otherwise, I'd be sorry to see any attention paid to whether he did or not. The thing is, it does not take the mind of a blatant racist to have an immediate reaction of suspicion or fear about a young black man or teenage walking down the street. As Donna Britt noted, racism and other forms of prejudice are in the air we breathe. All of us. Whatever society in which we live. In addition, we all have our quirks.

Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us, and certainly no more quirky than many friends, relatives and acquaintances Most of us probably have, and some of whom we love.

It is possible that some redeeming good can arise from the terrible reality of Trayvon Martin's death if more people in society than not can own that Zimmerman's choices and perceptions perhaps reflected biases and perceptions that nearly all of us possess to some degree, and result in us questioning ourselves and owning our own biases.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Janie......Although it will assuredly take more for a conviction, the Feds can be called in at any time the locals believe there is poosibly race/lifestyle/etc. involved and a crime of some sort has taken place. That just happened here about a year ago.

Also, the State's attorney in charge of the case has stepped aside and will probably be joinng the Chief of Police reenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Petition count keeps on climbing. Why do we have to have these things before we take action?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:49 PM

I hear you, Spaw. Seems to me that end of the discussion is pretty well and cogently covered by many of you commenting here.

I just happen to believe that while signing petitions can be effective, petitions also incorporate a bit of mob mentality. I think real social change over time also relies on individual introspection and ownership on an individual level for the attitudes and actions our institutions reflect.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:26 AM

More examples of "The Talk" (that African American parents must have with their sons):

Florida teen's killing is a parent's greatest fear (Corey Dade, NPR)
Under 'suspicion': The killing of Trayvon Martin (Jonathan Capeheart, Washington Post)

There are so many different pieces of wrong that have come together in this event. Some of it lies in individuals, some in the law, some in society... the racist profiling; gun access; individual vigilanteism; legislative facilitation of vigilanteism; police malfeasance (racist? excused by reference to the legislation?).

Thanks so much for your last paragraph, Janie.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:36 AM

Janie is right about mob mentality, though fortunately it hasn't reached that level in this case.

Like many newsworthy events, this one is being turned into melodrama before we know all the facts. Zimmerman is assumed to be a racist out to shoot a young black man for the hell of it. Then the racist white cops cover it up.

From what I've read, evidence for that interpretation exists, but it's shaky.

Just as a possibility (neither likely nor unlikely), what about this?

Z. wants to be a hero. He knows there have been a number of burglaries in the *gated* community. "Gated" is important because it means that there's only one way in and out and that any strange "youth" seen walking there at night will attract attention. (Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.)

Z. sees Martin, calls the cops. He follows Martin, gets out of his car, and challenges him. Martin, a 17-year-old football player, stands up for himself: Z. is obviously not a cop, maybe he's a mugger. Z. gets in M.'s face, M. shoves him, maybe hard. Z. gets scared, still wants to be a crime-busting hero, pulls his gun. Maybe M. tries to take it away. Z. shoots M.

When the cops arrive, Z. tells him he thought M. was a burglar. He says M. attacked him and he shot in self-defense.

For whatever reason, the cops decide that the "stand-your-ground" law protects Z. Maybe they're racists, maybe they're stupid, maybe they're lazy, maybe all of the above. Who knows? But they make that decision.

The only thing I'm convinced of is that Z. should have been arrested (Charges could have been dropped later if that's what the facts warranted.) And obviously there should have been a fuller investigation. Did the police interview the women who claimed on CNN that they saw Z. pinning M. to the ground? (BTW, any defense lawyer would ask how they could be certain who was pinning who? It was dark. It was far away. If they were so sure at the time, why did they wait three weeks to tell their story? Etc., etc.)

The police bungled a serious local incident. They should have expected the outcry. Maybe Z. should go to jail for a long time. Maybe not. Maybe under Florida law he really is "blameless." Let's see what the U.S. Department of Justice investigation has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

"Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us,"

I disagree with this Janie. Personally I suspect this person was in fact more than "a little quirky" in the same way that I see any person acting in an extreme fashion (I believe unprovoked killing of a stranger - in a culture which does not explicitly condone such actions - to be an extreme action) to be more than "a little quirky".

Where I do agree is that while others were not necessarily acting in such extreme fashion, they were complicit to a degree. There was clearly sufficient discreet societal (and local to that area) accordance with his views, to superficially 'normalise' this extreme lone action as is evidenced in the absence of legal action against this killer.

I think that the passing of the law discussed below, has no doubt provided a strong societally encouraging precedent to many individuals with potentially extreme tendencies, and the failure to publicly condemn this act, could eventually lead to an implicit social condoning of such actions whereby people who are indeed merely "a little quirky" could become murderers in cold blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:16 AM

Still, here in the UK (where we don't have guns) people who are considered "a little quirky" go bird spotting - or folk singing!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: meself
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

Lighter - Are you just a fun-loving contrarian or do you have a darker motive for making up shit and posting it here ("Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.")?

Oh - or have you read nothing at all about this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:14 AM

We do know that Zimmerman determinedly pursued and hunted for Martin.