BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 05:39 PM

Say what you want, but the simple fact is that it is all a dance. SF/PIRA have gone far and away beyond what the Loyalists have to make the peace process work. The Loyalists have done everything they can think of to sabotage the process for a very simple reason. They don't want to share power. Their gerrymandered system was set up to give them more power than their numbers indicate. It was designed to keep them at the top of the heap, and they don't want to give it up. And they might have finally succeeded in their desire. They might have scuttled the best chance they had to give the children of the North of Ireland peace instead of war. How nice. Now they can go back to terrorizing 8 year old Catholic schoolgirls as they walk to school

And you folks can go back to blaming everything on the IRA and the Republicans. Congratulations.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:49 PM

Holding people above suspicion because they are the favourite terrorist organisation is wrong.

It would indeed be wrong. Obviously the IRA is under suspicion. However, they aren't the only ones.

For example: breakaway Republicans raising funds; one-time IRA people using the skills they have acquired; the recognised loyalist paramilitaries; breakaway loyalists; ex-loyalist paras who've gven up on the politics, but are still into the crime; there could even be ex-IRA and ex-loyalist professional gangsters, in it together for the money. Then there's freelance military or police, from either side of the border; or dirty tricks from within the security services, authorised or unauthorised...

Some of these are far-fetched, some less so - but the thing is, nobody actually knows. And the officials who say they do know, but who haven't produced a shred of evidence, cannot be assumed to be trustworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:28 PM

"Now they can go back to terrorizing 8 year old Catholic schoolgirls as they walk to school"

And nothing of the sort ever happens with protestant school children, I suspose stones throw themselves. I do not condone the actions taken by these people during the Holy Cross row, but if I apply the same understanding to the protestors that some apply to SF/IRA I can understand their frustration.

Maybe go as far as calling what is happening in that area as ethnic cleansing, or does violence just visit the Catholics.

In no way do I agree with any terrorist,loyalists are a spent force, as they should be. For me personally I can't wait to see the back of them, they are nothing but bigots out to get what they can. I do not wear rose tinted glasses.

Gerry Adams stated that the murder of R.Connolly(sp?) was not a crime, in other words the IRA do not commit crimes, and people buy into that.

The point is simple I am not saying the IRA did the robbery, what I am saying is that Orde and Ahern have the resources to make the statements that they made.

When we have people who live in a genuine fear of terrorists the concessions that SF has got does not make it look like SF/IRA are bending over backwards, quite the opposite TB is bendin over and taking it up the --=--= How many Army posts ,police stations etc are being taken down much to the dismay of people in the border areas. Maybe their feelings should not be taken into consideration.

This is the problem with supporting terrorists of any kind, it is the people who just want to get on that are caught in the middle.And what happens to them if they speak out, they get labelled with the same old tripe they are either loyalist or nat/rep thugs.

If the truth be told many in Ireland accept that it was the IRA behind the robbery, no agenda just the fact.

Thankfully all this will not stop the peace process if people want it they will have it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:40 PM

I have to correct myself.

Gerry Adams stated that the murder of R.Connolly(sp?) was not a crime, in other words the IRA do not commit crimes, and people buy into that.

Should be Jean McConville, SF chairman McLaughlin also asserts that her killing was not a criminal act.

Taken from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4186887.stm

"The party chairman said the killing of Jean McConville - one of the Disappeared - was not a criminal act. "

Also "The Sinn Fein member also agreed with a remark that the IRA was "the only legitimate government of Ireland".

Mrs McConville, from west Belfast, was abducted and murdered by the IRA after she went to the aid of a fatally wounded British soldier outside her front door in 1972.

The 37-year-old was one of the nine so-called Disappeared people who were murdered by the IRA and secretly buried during the 1970s.

The mother-of-10's remains were found at Shelling Hill beach in County Louth in the Irish Republic in August 2003.

So SF?IRA murder people but that's not crimminal,accepting that they are robbing banks does not take too much of a leap.

Is some accountability too much to ask for?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:39 AM

Better to see the killing of Jean McConville not so much as " a criminal act" but rather as as a "war crime". That doesn't in any way make in any sense less criminal, in some ways worse indeed, but like other war crimes it has different origins from ordinary crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:53 AM

Perhaps we have to forego accountability on all sides for the sake of the peace process or else we will be constantly mired in the consequences of past crimes (however you wnat to define them).

What is more disturbing is the lack of moral leadership provided by all the leading parties in NI, as demonstrated by McLaughlin's remarks on McConville, the attitide of Paisley et al and the British Government's consistent avoiding of responsibility for collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries etc.

Moral integrity is the key to making the peace process succesful; at some point someone is going to have to show some.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:57 AM

How strange that the Van used in the Northern Bank robbery was stolen in north Wales, not a known IRA stronghold, this part of Gwent is close to a British Army Barracks, video footage of the van was also seen in Lisburn, not exactly a welcoming area for provies, and quite close to Thiepval British Army barracks.



The DUP and their ilk tell us that "the dogs in the street know who did the robbery", I foolishley bid an old street cur "good morning" but i`m afraid there was no response, could be old Ian has worked his magic on the prod dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:27 AM

Not strange at all considering it came into the north I forget the name of the port that sails from Wales to Ireland. And you will not convince me that the IRA do not have sympathisers in Wales.

Believe me the loyalists simply do not have the gumption for such an adventure. They would be boasting about it in the local knee breakers.

"area for provies, and quite close to Thiepval British Army barracks."
Now that would make sense would'nt it, lets pull a robbery and have surveillance tape show it coming out of or around Thiepval.

Pathetic thing about this affair is, if the IRA said we did it all the hoo ha would be over with, as TB want N.I. off his hands he will accept almost any transgressions from SF/IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:50 AM

But there's no reason to assume that the IRA and the loyalist paras are the only players.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:56 AM

If people from the Isle in the North or in Ireland really believe that organisations like IRA or UDF are fraternal clubs, post under your real names.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM

Rather than follow the practice of unnamed GUESTs?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

You first.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:07 PM

"If people from the Isle in the North or in Ireland really believe that organisations like IRA or UDF are fraternal clubs, post under your real names."

This post was from me. I did it when the 'cat was down. Back door.

"Rather than follow the practice of unnamed GUESTs?"

So good to have your remark, McG of H. Brought to my attention that my name wasn't attached.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:58 PM

Brucie, as you know, the acronyms are very clear as to what these organizations are. Irish Republican Army and Ulster Defense Force don't leave much room for interpretation.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM

Too true, Mick. Makes a guy wonder why the very people who saved the English language and produced some of the greatest song and literature take such joy in the killing of each other. The Irish in me is less than 10%, and the family then was Catholic. I grew up Protestant. They're idiots on all three sides. IMO.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM

Just visit Belfast and you'll understand. Just watch some young Catholic kids trying to go to school on their first day, through a gauntlet of screaming Protestant abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

Bruce, don't mistake the intent of my post. It was simply to point out that anyone who calls these fraternal organizations isn't paying attention to the name. My beliefs with regard to the legitimate aims of the Irish people in the North of Ireland are another matter entirely.

I agree, Freda.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:07 PM

It's yet another legacy of the British stragey of divide and conquer. Still divided, still conquered..

Ulster was part of Catholic Ireland until the reign of Elizabeth I (1558–1603) when, after suppressing three Irish rebellions, the Crown confiscated lands in Ireland and settled the Scots Presbyterians in Ulster. Another rebellion in 1641–1651, brutally crushed by Oliver Cromwell, resulted in the settlement of Anglican Englishmen in Ulster. Subsequent political policy favoring Protestants and disadvantaging Catholics encouraged further Protestant settlement in Northern Ireland.

When the Republic of Ireland gained sovereignty in 1922, relations improved between North and South, although the Irish Republican Army (IRA), outlawed in recent years, continued the struggle to end the partition of Ireland. In 1966–1969, rioting and street fighting between Protestants and Catholics occurred in Londonderry, fomented by extremist nationalist Protestants, who feared the Catholics might attain a local majority, and by Catholics demonstrating for civil rights. These confrontations became known as "the Troubles."

35 years later, still divided, Britain is still in control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

One thing is clear - if the people who pulled this off had any kind of political intention, that must been to scupper the peace process. That in fact makes it a lot less likely to have been an officially sanctioned IRA job. Of course there are a fair number of people on all sides who might have that sort of agenda.

And if it was just about the money, without any political intent at all, that doesn't really sound as if the IRA would have been likely to have authorised it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Com Seangan
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

Well Mow Mowlam (former UK Secretary for N. Ireland) put the cat amomng the political pigeons when asked on the Late Late Show if she thought the IRA was responsible . She said she didn't know. When asked if she personally believed that the IRA did it she said "I believe nothing without evidence".

That should be the response of Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair and all reasonable people. No accusations without evidence. IT is an acute embarrassment to the so-called "intelligence", who now claim that the raid was planned six months in advance and that Gerry Adams knew all about it. A good theory for poiticians who are scarec of the progress of Sinn Fein in elections North and south.

I agree with those who say -it would make a good movie. They did a reconstruction on TV Prime Time in collaberation with the Police. It was really hilarious and a reflection both on the bank security system and the police "intelligence".

Can you imagine any night Security staff at any bank not raising an eyebrow - when a Bank Manager arrives in after midnight and begins pushing out trolleys of "Rubbish" - and loading it on to a lorry - not once but twice ?? Did any of you ever see a Bank Manager push anything ?? And even after the job was done - no questions were asked by Security staff on duty who witnessed the dedicated Bank Manager wirking his but off with Rubbish in the small hours of the morning !!. It was a passer-by who became suspicious and called the Police - who arrived after two hours.

Yes - it woiukld make a good moview - with John Cleese as the Bank Manager and Rowan Atkinson as the Security man on duty.

Aw, yes. It had to be the IRA !! Lig dom.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:14 PM

why the IRA splintered

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

What are the actual political options for a solution?

possibilities, options, arguments


who would want to live in Northern Ireland? It's so easy to criticise from afar.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:15 PM

And lest anyone mistake the intent of my post:

"They're idiots on all THREE sides." NI, Erin and Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM

Bruce, I mean no offense, but that response is usually reserved for those that haven't been able to sort out the facts and come to an opinion. I wonder if you would be so good as to explain how it is that they are all idiots. I am not being a smart ass here, I just need to know. Freda has demonstrated her position with cites and information. Could you do the same?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Lest my position be misunderstood, no, I don't support violence as a solution. Anyone who thinks it easy to call the Irish, the Brits, Paisley's mob or anyone else fools there had better show their superior intelligence to come up with a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:42 PM

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, Mick. My introduction to what has been called "The Troubles" was Leon Uris' book "Trinity". I looked further.

I grew up singing with a fellow named Trevor who was an Orangeman. My own grandmother was a gal from England who seldom had a good word to say about 'The Irish' until she discoverd after receiving the family papers (when her older sister passed on) and found the birth certificate of her mother: she was Irish Catholic. My grandmother grew up in England. In this hodge-podge, I was thoroughly confused. Who to believe about what?

I will go get internet sources to show that the IRA, UDF and Brits kill savagely and without any remorse in the name of their 'causes'. Sorry, but with regard to Ireland, I have no respect for any of them. The three groups have their killers: tehy use them. SAS, IRA, UDF. They put a nice look on things with front parties, but what I see is a group of people who have deluded themselves into the belief that their cause is just. No cause is just when little kids are killed. Wheteher it's a drill bit through the knee or a bullet to blow off the cap, a sniper shot from a thousand yards or a bomb that is less discriminate, these people are not heroes in my opinion. And I don't care who's side they are on. That's what I meant. Nothing more and nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:44 PM

You weren't offending, Bruce. I just wanted to hear how you arrived at your conclusion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:28 PM

Mick, thank you.

I really wasn't trying to offend anyone: North, South or British. I do know the history fof Ireland--not as well as a scholar, but I know it. I know that historically the Irish had their country split by England. I know that Protestants and Catholics have difficulty getting along, maybe nowhere so much as in Ireland. I do understand 'gang' menntality because I came from a district that had gangs because we needed to have gangs for protection.

I look at the country--no, the Island of Ireland--and I see from afar a beautiful place with myth and legend intertwined; with what I really think is the most beautiful music on Earth; with writers and poets who can hold thjeir place with the giants of literature of this or any other time--and I also see evil, ugly, perverted bastards who would kill a child to further their cause. We see this in the mid-East. We see this with self-appointed fanatics who would corrupt the very heart of Holy to reach a place from which to declare, "Hey, boyo, we WON." What can anyone win by spilling the blood of people whose real heroism lies in living life, raising families, and just going about the daily things we take for granted. No, sir, I think the things done in the name of this cause and parenthetically most other causes degrade humanity. The Cause has a life of its own, and it is not dedicated to justice now--if indeed it ever was.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

Freda; There are two very distinct issues. Please don't confuse them.

1. Is evidence needed before you make serious allegations against an organisation or against indiviuduals.

2. What is the solution to the mess in Northern Ireland?

Because contributors cannot present you with a quick fix solution to a complex problem does not that they don't have the right to refute the illogical stance of politicians in condemning Sinn Fein without evidence.

The problem of Northen Ireland is a a matter "of domestic British concern" as Margaret Thatcher was so fond of saying. And in a way she was right. The Problem was created by the British - they wanted control - (as they originally created the problems of the Middle East)- so the British should solve it democartically and according to the norms of natural justice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:40 AM

Until someone in authority produces solid evidence, like some of the cash that was stolen, I and everyone else who have a mind to, can tell Orde, Ahearn, Blair, etc, that they are fools, produce the evidence, and then point the finger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Guest The Observor
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:55 AM

Welcome back Belfast/ N.Ireland, or should I say Ireland, good to see your neutral loyalist views again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:50 AM

"Paisley's mob or anyone else fools"

I'll call Paisley's mob's fools, idiots war mongers, but I will not point the finger at them and say you were the sole cause and the only asshole doing it.

Nor will I point the finger at Protestant people and say they are the sole cause.

We all forget that since before St Paddys time the Irish and English have been intertwinned.And not all bad that happens in Ireland can be blamed only on the English no matter how much I would like to to take the moral high ground some people try to do.

Accept it all our hands are dirty, you will never convince me that predjudism is unique to one side. Get real.

To get into the indepth reason of why such misguided people yell at school children takes honest dialogue, something that is sadly lacking on this board.

We have idiots dividing us on religous grounds rattelling on about the buck ejits in the orange order but not questions asked why they came about, maybe if the catholic's of that time had not attacked out laying protestant farms killing and maiming people than the OO would not have come about.

Both sides forget that Catholics fought alongside protestants with William, with the support of the Pope. And at that stage what would have been United about Ireland anyway, under a king who was a tyrant.

Do people forget about the Free Irish men, what was their religion Presbyterian, who have the most fluent Irish speaking people among their ranks today.

Life is not as black and white as it seems and no I am not defending loyalists nor the OO but trying to understand them. Just as I try to understand the IRA.

Look at the underlying reasons as to why things are done, maybe the people on the Ardoyne were driven to the action they took. Not much was reported on the trouble they had. And yes maybe those who were doing the ethnic cleansing of the protestants people from the Ardoyne had their reasons.

Something has to snap to make people react like that, its wrong, but maybe its understandable.Something makes them think their actions are just, just like the IRA bombing Omagh killing babes in the womb.

None of it is right,but finger pointing and deliberitly not understanding the other side solves nothing.

But of course there are those on both sides who see no wrong in their own.

Shame on you, narrow minded bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 01:10 PM

Brucie, I'd like to hear how your comments weren't meant to insult. I come from a nationalist background in N. Ireland, so are you calling me an idiot? I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. The Loyalist paramilitaries (funny how the loyalists belong to Paramilitary groups and the Nationalists belong to terrorist organizations) are as follows: Two main groups the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) and the UDA (Ulster Defence Association). The UVF are old school much like the official IRA are old school. UDA members also operate as the UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters). The two main groups combined for a while until a violent split. Out of this split emerged the LVF (Loyalist Volunteer Force) and The Red Hand Defenders and another smaller group called The orange Volunteers who are largely UDA and UVF members operating under a different name. Thought I'd clear that up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. (Den)

Perhaps you are right and there are more than 1000 typos on the web (google for "UDF Ulster") but there are lots of websites even giving a date when a UDF was founded. So if this is an error, it has been made by many.

One example (of many)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:31 PM

Mural Number: 444
Location: Lisburn, Co. Antrim
Type: Unionist / Loyalist
Year: April 2000
Status: Still exists at location
Description: Symbols of UFF, UDA, LPA, UDF with Ulster flag, Union Jack and St. Andrew's flag, "In memory of Brig. J. McMichael. Murdered by the enemies of Ulster on 22nd Dec 1987. Never will be forgotten."

from the CAIN website (my emphasis)

maybe someone can go over there and have a look?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Of course there was a UDF. I wish people would take the few seconds necessary to check categorical statements like that before they put them up. There's enough confusion about this whole business anyway, without adding more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Den,

"Ulster Nine-county province of ancient Ireland. However, the term is now commonly used by Unionists to refer to the six counties in Northern Ireland
Ulster Defense Association (UDA) Founded in September 1971, the major Loyalist paramilitary group, now outlawed
Ulster Defense Force (UDF) Loyalist paramilitary training group created in 1986 by UDA
Ulster Democratic Party (UDA) Founded in 1988 as ULDP (changed name in 1989), led by Gary McMichael. Links with UDA
Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party (UDLP) Former name of UDP. First formed by John McMichael of the UDA in 1981. Re-established in 1988
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) Largest Unionist party, led by David Trimble, also known as the Official Unionist Party
Ulster Volunteer Force (UFV) Originally formed in 1912 to oppose Home Rule, re-established in 1966 and is now a banned Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Workers' Council (UWC) Loyalist organization founded to generate wide-scale strike action and civil disobedience in protest against the Sunningdale"

You might want to correct the people at this site:

http://home.att.net/~IrishPeace.com/Glossary.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:26 PM

Den,

From: http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2004/pgt_2003/pgt_2003_31759pf.htm


"Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description
Loyalist terrorist group formed in 1966 to oppose liberal reforms in Northern Ireland that members feared would lead to unification of Ireland. The group adopted the name of an earlier organization formed in 1912 to combat Home Rule for Ireland. The UVF's goal is to maintain Northern Ireland's status as part of the UK; to that end it has killed some 550 persons since 1966. The UVF and its offshoots have been responsible for some of the most vicious attacks of "the Troubles" including horrific sectarian killings like those perpetrated in the 1970s by the UVF-affiliated "Shankill Butchers." In October 1994, the Combined Loyalist Military Command, which included the UVF, declared a cease-fire, and the UVF's political wing—the Progressive Unionist Party—has played an active role in the peace process. Despite the cease-fire, the organization has been involved in a series of bloody feuds with other Loyalist paramilitary organizations.

Activities
The UVF has been active in Belfast and the border areas of Northern Ireland where it has carried out bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings, extortion, and robberies. On occasion, it has provided advance warning to police of its attacks. Targets include nationalist civilians, republican paramilitary groups and, on occasion, rival loyalist paramilitary groups. The UVF continues to observe a cease-fire.

Strength
Unclear, but probably several hundred supporters, with a smaller number of hard-core activists. Police counterterrorist operations and internal feuding have reduced the group's strength and capabilities.

Location/Area of Operation
Northern Ireland. Some support on the UK mainland.

External Aid
Suspected in the past of receiving funds and arms from sympathizers overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM

Den,

I could supply more if you wish. I think all groups have certainly committed terrible crimes in the name of the Cause. The people I have admired most: Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams and their efforts in the mid 1970s. I likely don't know as much about Northern Ireland as you would like me too, and maybe I never will. But I do know I don't admire either side of the issue, nor do I care for what the English government has done, and you can take that for what it's worth.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:16 PM

McGrath, since you seem to know so much maybe you would like to enlighten me. I grew up in N.Ireland through the worst of the troubles, lived in Belfast and never was aware of the UDF. If it was some boy's brigade feeder group for the UDA then I stand corrected.

Brucie, "Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description", not sure what you wanted to prove with that post but you then went on to describe the UVF. The UVF have been around for a long time.

If I have made a mistake then I apologise to all and sundry but the UDF if they were as you describe a training or youth group they were not major players as per the context of the posts above. Certainly not killers in the same league as the UDA and some of its off-shoots,such as the UFF and the Red Hand Defenders/Commandoes.

Its all very well to have the time on your hands to go searching through the internet for info. Its a very different matter to be on the ground and know what to look out for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:36 PM

All I was trying to 'prove' is that the UDF was not a typo on my part. The posts are quotes from various sites. I have also learned that they are not the generic label for organizations of that nature in NI.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:11 AM

Wolfgang, just wondering, were you a hall monitor at your school by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:51 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:29 PM

Just a little joke Wolfgang. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

Oh alright then, have it your way, no jokes. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:48 PM

Den,

I wish to apologize for my 'idiot' remark. That was uncalled for. The situation is idiotic, not the people. You are correct that your view growing up in NI is much more 'real' than is my view from books and movies. You have been a gentleman about all this, and I hope you'll accept my attempt at amends. I can be a real ass when I set my mind to it, and it seems this is one of those times. From the messages we've exchanged, it's easy to see that I'm the idiot in this equation. Thank you for your kindness and understanding.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:27 PM

Brucie you have really touched me, now i`m off to give Ian Paisley JR a kic kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

Sorry I was the Guest, now i`m back after seeing Ian Og, nursing a sore pair of Henry Halls, but you should see Ian Og.