BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

Subject: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM

Thousands of demonstrators are gathering in Jena Mississippi to protest treatment of what are being called the "Jena Six". These are six black teenagers who are accused of beating a white student unconscious at or near the high school which all of the youths attended. The protest is primarily concerning the severity of the crime that one of the six is being accused of. Present are notable black leaders including Martin Luther King III, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton. Here is the background as I understand it:

An area beneath a large tree on the High School campus had become a lunch and after-school lounging area for white students to the exclusion of black students. Several black students broke this taboo by lunching under the tree. Soon after, three nooses were hung from a branch in the tree. And shortly after this, a white student was attacked after school by the six black students. The white student was taken to hospital, treated, and releaed the same day. The six were then arrested, and one student charged, apparently, with attempted manslaughter.

The protests have apparently arisen over two factors : The severity of the charge against the black student, and the fact that several white students found to have strung the nooses were merely expelled instead of charged with hate crimes.

Am I missing something here? First, I believe that the white student who was beaten was not one of those who hung the nooses. Did the fact that nooses were displayed justify violence against someone merely because he was white? I watched a CNN reporter bubbling about how excited she was to be there "because this is solid news...this is what we went to school for". I also heard King III saying "this has all the atmosphere of the civil rights marches of 40 years ago. I'm glad the young people are finally getting a sense of the struggle". Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless these six have been falsely accused, they are certainly lousy examples of martyrs for freedom or equality. And there has been no protest of their innocence as of yet.

When I hear King say his Father would have condoned the march and rally, I really find it difficult to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM

Jena is in Louisiana, not Mississippi.

Another complaint of the protesters is that white students involved in assault (i.e., fighting) ~ not necessarily the same white students who hung the nooses ~ were charged with much lesser crimes, or not charged at all, while black students accused of the same actions were charged with much more serious crimes, with much more severe penalties.

While it may be true that the white student who was most seriously beaten may not have particiapted in the hanging of the nooses, we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off?

I saw on last night's TV news (local stations in New Orleans) that some properties near the protest site (presumably white-owned homes and businesses) are actually up for sale because of the current controversy. Seems to me like a huge overreaction.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:53 PM

I don't know. I wasn't there. I'm not on the jury and haven't heard the REAL evidence (as opposed to media reports)

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

Didn't this actually happen awhile back? I mean the actual crime for which they are charged. I seem to recall reading about it in another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

Sorry about mixing up Louisiana and Mississippi, Poppa. I sound like a Yankee for sure, don't I?

Now I have to argue with your statement when, referring to the white beating victim, you said we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off?. This strikes me as a very prejudicial statement. We must assume he had to do something to justify the attack? And what would constitute a legitimate reason for justifying an attack by six persons on one?

We clearly need to know more about what happened down there before coming to those kinds of conclusions, and before we make heroes of six individuals who may be guilty themselves of an attack triggered by race-hate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:31 PM

I agree with Sorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM

The DA supposedly made an inflammatory statement to one of the black suspects, "I can make you disappear with the stroke of a pen". That remark is what Sharpton and the others seem to be concentrating on.

                                                          SOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:04 PM

Here's more information:

"The Jena 6: Since When Do Teenage Boys Watch Lonesome Dove?
Posted on Jun 07, 2007 - 1:30pm by Laura in Jena 6, Other Blogs

"...Blatant racism is exposed in a small town here in Louisiana, culminating in the burning of the high school and attempted second degree murder charges against six students (the ¡°Jena 6¡å) for a high school fight. The high school in this 85% white town evidently self-segregated, as schools often do, but apparently it became less about choice and more about enforcement because a group of black students found it necessary to ask permission to sit under a tree where white students normally sat. The school administrator told them they were free to sit where they liked, and when they went to the tree the next day, they found three nooses hanging from the branches.

Three punks were ¡°quickly¡± identified as the culprits, according to this Chicago Trib article. (I can¡¯t help but wonder if they were quickly identified because they were bragging and laughing it up.) Result: 3 days suspension.

¡°Adolescents play pranks,¡± said Breithaupt, the superintendent of the LaSalle Parish school system. ¡°I don¡¯t think it was a threat against anybody.¡±

Pranks?! Roy Breithaupt cannot possibly be that stupid. But if he is, he¡¯s not alone. According to , the three days suspension was justified by >

asserting that the noose were merely a silly prank inspired by a hanging scene in the television min-series ¡®Lonesome Dove¡¯.

Since when do teenage boys watch Lonesome Dove? Teenage boys watch MTV. They don¡¯t watch western miniseries on the Hallmark channel. Give me a break. A noose is a statement, just as making a motion as if to slit your throat, or pointing your index finger as if it were the barrel of a gun is a statement. And in the south, a noose is a particular pointed, threatening statement. A prank is when you string some guy¡¯s underwear up the flagpole so everyone can see his skidmarks. A prank is a water balloon or filling a locker with shaving cream. A noose? Not so much.

As they say at Fark, after the nooses, hilarity ensued. From the Trib article:

First, a series of fights between black and white students erupted at the high school over the nooses. Then, in late November, unknown arsonists set fire to the central wing of the school, which still sits in ruins. Off campus, a white youth beat up a black student who showed up at an all-white party. A few days later, another young white man pulled a shotgun on three black students at a convenience store.

Finally, on Dec. 4, a group of black students at the high school allegedly jumped a white student on his way out of the gym, knocked him unconscious and kicked him after he hit the floor. The victim ¡ª allegedly targeted because he was a friend of the students who hung the nooses and had been taunting blacks ¡ª was not seriously injured and spent only a few hours in the hospital.

But the LaSalle Parish district attorney, Reed Walters, opted to charge six black students with attempted second-degree murder and other offenses, for which they could face a maximum of 100 years in prison if convicted. All six were expelled from school.

Second degree murder charges for a high school beating? Reginald M., a Jena High School graduate, has a great summary of all this and some excellent links at Listen to me for a minute. And as one commenter put it, ¡°it¡¯s like the 60¡¯s never happened.¡±

This is not just a school problem. It¡¯s a town problem.

And the guy who pulled the shotgun on the students at the convenience store evidently wasn¡¯t even charged. But then, if a noose is a prank, I guess that shotgun thing was something for America¡¯s Funniest Home Videos.

A slightly different point of view - a local pastor acknowledges the racism, but reminds people that these events were spread out of the course of eight months, and says that the punks with the nooses -

were first suspended and then sent to an alternative school off-campus. They underwent psychological evaluations before being re-admitted to Jena High School and even then were separated from the student body at first.

Is that enough for the original offense? How much responsibility should these students bear for effects of the chain of events they triggered? I¡¯m not at all sure, but even that pastor writes,

"LaSalle Parish is awash in racism: True racism. Not the sort of affirmative action/name-calling/reparations-seeking fluff that keeps Jesse Jackson and liberal do-gooders in business, but a systematic, culture of bigotry, neglected by the scrutiny of time.

Here in the piney woods of central Louisiana, where some gentle, old, Christian, white women still call graying black men ¡°boy¡± and some angry, young, Christian, black teens attack pizza delivery trucks that would dare enter their neighborhood, racism and bigotry are such a part of life that most of the citizens do not even recognize it. Cross Highway127 just south of Jena and you enter two different worlds, separated by class and race. If we as Christians face powers, principalities, and rulers of darkness in high places it is certain that part of the spiritual wickedness arrayed against the citizens of LaSalle Parish is hatred born of racism."

-snip-


http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/06/07/the-jena-6-since-when-do-teenage-boys-watch-lonesome-dove/

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:06 PM

For some reason, portions of that excerpt reproduced with HTML like symbols. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:09 PM

What didn't somebody sue in federal court, or file a complaint with the state attorney general? Or maybe they did and it just wasn't newsworthy.

                How did they finally force that DA in the Duke rape case into court?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:12 PM

Blogs- A pox upon them!

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

If a group of whites were to attack a black student, what would be the reaction here to the following statement:

'While it may be true that the black student who was most seriously beaten may not have particiapted in the xxxx, we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off?'


What I see is the establishment that it is ok to have a group of one race attack an individual of another, if they feel that they have been insulted, or 'dissed'. Next I suppose we will see marches to establish the right to lynch those uppity **** when they get out of line, and don't know their place.

If another group of students ganged up and attacked someone of another race, they should be treated just as severely: REGARDLESS of the race of the group, OR the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:31 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20070919/cm_huffpost/065010

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM

According to tonight's news, the first defendent, age 17, was tried and convicted as an adult. The court agreed that this was overkill and overturned the verdict. No one is saying that these young men did nothing wrong. The complaint is that white students are treated less severely than black.
The nooses, in my opinion, should have been considered a racial threat and would have in any school in New York State or Maine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:39 PM

From the link I posted:

'The always excellent Wade Goodman of NPR reported what happened next:

"The next night, 16-year-old Robert Bailey and a few black friends tried to enter a party attended mostly by whites. When Bailey got inside, he was attacked and beaten. The next day, tensions escalated at a local convenience store. Bailey exchanged words with a white student who had been at the party. The white boy ran back to his truck and pulled out a pistol grip shotgun. Bailey ran after him and wrestled him for the gun.
After some scuffling, Bailey and his friends took the gun away and brought it home. Bailey was eventually charged with theft of a firearm, second-degree robbery and disturbing the peace. The white student who pulled the weapon was not charged at all.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:48 PM

Note that there is some dispute about whether the six Black students {Jena 6} or any other Black students kicked White student Justin Barker when he was knocked down to the ground.

See these comments from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six that I have put in italics for emphasis:

The assault
On December 4, 2006, Jena High School student Justin Barker, age 17, was assaulted by other Jena High students. According to reports, earlier that day Barker, a white student, bragged about how one of his alleged attackers, Robert Bailey, Jr., had been beaten up by a white man the Friday before.[3] Barker, who denies making the comments,[15] was then knocked to the ground after being hit in the back of his head. From there, according to white witnesses, a group of black students followed suit by repeatedly kicking him, though black witnesses deny that this occurred.[15] Barker, who was left unconscious after the attack, was examined by a doctor at the local hospital. In the meantime, the six students accused of the attack, eventually dubbed the "Jena Six",[16] were arrested.


Barker's injuries
After two hours of treatment and observation for a concussion and an eye that had swollen shut, Barker was released from the hospital. He was able to attend his school's Ring ceremony that evening,[7] though he later testified, "I waited 11 years to go to it. I wasn't going to let that get in my way," and that he ended up leaving early due to pain.[17]

During the trial, Barker also testified that his face was badly swollen after the attack and that he temporarily lost vision in one eye for three weeks. He also stated that he suffered recurring headaches since the attack, though he admitted that tests have shown no medical cause.[17]

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:50 PM

Several have already hit on it, but this is about equality of treatment by the authorities, both civil and school. The cases have been picked up and backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center who are providing the defense attorneys. Everyone here was in the wrong but it seems that the "punishment" and/or charges fell along racial lines and did not always fit the crime.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:57 PM

Charge reduced in 'Jena 6' case
Change made on day jury was to be picked

By Howard Witt | Tribune senior correspondent
June 26, 2007

HOUSTON - The district attorney prosecuting a racially charged beating case in the small Louisiana town of Jena abruptly reduced attempted-murder charges Monday against a black high school student accused of attacking a white student, drawing cautious praise from civil rights leaders who contend the charges were excessive and part of a pattern of uneven justice in the town.

Mychal Bell, 16, a former Jena High School football star, and five other black students had been facing the potential of up to 100 years in prison if convicted of attempted murder, conspiracy and other charges for the December beating of the white student, who was knocked unconscious but not hospitalized. The incident capped months of escalating racial tensions at the high school that began after several white youths hung nooses from a tree in the school courtyard in a taunt aimed at blacks.

But as jury selection was about to begin in Bell's case Monday, District Atty. Reed Walters reduced the charges to aggravated second-degree battery and conspiracy to commit aggravated second-degree battery, which together carry a maximum of 22 years in prison. Walters, who is prosecuting Bell as an adult, also offered the teenager a plea agreement including a suspended sentence, which Bell's father said the youth rejected...

Bell's father, Marcus Jones, said Monday that even though his son has been jailed since December and unable to post $90,000 bail, he preferred to take his case to a jury rather than plead guilty to a felony.

"The DA is trying to use my son as a scapegoat for these ridiculous charges," Jones said. "He knows there's no proof showing that my son and those other kids were trying to kill that boy. It was a simple high school fight. How can you turn that into attempted murder?"

Darrell Hickman, an attorney for one of the other youths charged in the case, said he expected the charges against the other defendants would eventually be reduced as well. And he asserted that even the reduced charges would be hard to prove.

"I think the district attorney is still overreaching," Hickman said. "The new charge is aggravated second-degree battery, which requires use of a weapon. There's no evidence that any weapon was involved."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena_wittjun26,1,3186370.story

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:05 PM

"Bell, 16 at the time of the December attack, is the only one of the "Jena Six" to be tried so far. He was convicted on an aggravated second-degree battery count that could have sent him to prison for 15 years, but the conviction was overturned last week when a state appeals court said he should not have been tried as an adult."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070920/ap_on_re_us/school_fight;_ylt=Aia19vEEZqzubJOFDadlzdus0NUE

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM

CAUTION
                         Bobert Rant

Well, I've been talkin' about this on various threads going back to my coming to this joint some, ahhhhh, many years ago but, folks...

... this ain't about one particular case here but out entire culture... We collectively ***refuse*** to revisit our history in a rsponsible mammer, discuss slavery, discuss Jim Crow and discuss a way to "repair", (yeah, friggin' repair...) what white people have done to black people...

Bill Clinton tried to get a discussion going back 'round '96 but met with the same ol' Southern knee-jerk reaction... That reaction has become almost as predictable as the sun coming up in the east and settin' in the west... Well, I get along fine with them folks and I don't think I should pay for nuthin' my grand-daddy did...

I'm so sick of hearing this horsesh*t mantra that I could puke...

Of course we need to talk about what our grand-daddies did... We need to get beyond white arrogance that all is well... All is not well... We are perpetuating the same mythology... We are perpetuating the same culture where ehite kids don't get it that puttin' up a noose is more than just just a high school prank... If these kids want to do pranks then do them as intergarted people and go off and steal the other high school's mascot suit... That is a prank... A noose is not a prank...

Hey, I know what I talk about here... I was brought up in "liberal" Northern Virginia... Hey, racism was rampant... I remember fighting with black kids from the "black' high school... Why???... Danged if I knew then but I fully understand it now... Racism is so much part of the US culture that white folks think because they go see a black performer that makes them "whole" and "pure" and so, so friggin' liberated??? Then soemthin' like this happens and folks line up along racial lines...

I'm sick to my stomach of white people thinking they are so "classless and free when they are all fuckin' peasants as far as I can see" (John Lennon)... Yerah, John hit the nail on the head... This is a white problem that has spilled over to our balck brothers and sisters...

White people need to have a converstaion... White people need to seperate the mythology from history... White people have the power to bring about a conversation... Black people don't... White people are on trial here in Jena, folks... Yeah, white people will do everything in their power to try the divert attention away from their part in culture they have created where white kids think it's "cool" to atogonize black students with symbols of hatred...

Like I said, Jena is a white problem... White people are on trial here... White mythology is on trial... White lies are on trial...

This, I believe, is what Dr. King would be saying...

Rant over...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM

Yes, personal & institutional discrimination because of race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, age, and/or sexual orientation, is part of the United State's history and is still part of its present.

And yes, Black people and other people of color have been and continue to be victimized by institutional racism in the United States more than White people. However, that doesn't mean that we {Americans} should make White people the new Boogyman.

I believe that the issue is one of power vs powerlessness. Here's a question for you-who does it benefit for White people to feel that they are better than Black people {and vice versa}? And who does it benefit for White people and Black people to fight among themselves?

In my opinion, the conflicts between Black Americans and White Americans are beneficial only to those who have the real economic & political power in this nation-and those people who have the real power sure aren't most of the White people and most of the Black people in this country.

Furthermore, a group of people can make and enforce unfair, discriminatory laws against people who are from their same "race" if not their same ethnicity or religion etc.

Rwanda is an example of this in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:50 PM

I should have said that the tragedy of Rwanda is much more than the making and enforcement of unfair laws by people of one ethnicity against people of another ethnicity who are members of the same race.

Regardless of the fact that these two groups of people are from the same race, one word that best describes what has been happening in Rwanda is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:20 PM

Thanks to Azizi for the added background.

One major piece of information has been omitted thus far.THIS IS MYCHAL BELL'S 5th ARREST FOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY.

The County Prosecutor, who is a black man, has explained that the 2nd degree murder charges were brought not only because of the heinous nature of the attack (Bell reportedly stood on the victim's head while he was kicked), but because of the escalating violence of the assaults.

Is this guy your argument for reparations, Bobert? Cause it ain't a very strong one.

As in the Duke Lacrosse rape case, the media and the black leadership, as well as Bobert, are all to ready to pass judgement before they know anything about it. And once they've passed judgement, they'll spend their time righteously justifying their error.

Where was the black leadership when the nooses were hung?
Not in Jena, because it just wasn't a big enough story.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, Mizzy, but it's the white people who control the media, the government and just' about everything else that is needed to carry US into a new era... Dr. King held the microphone for just as ,onmg as white America thought he should (or could) and then white America gunned him down...

Please don't apologize for what white America has done...

Yes, some white Americans have come a long way since the 60's but too many have "fallen back" on the ol' culture... The Southern culture where as long as "the Negro" acts nice then "the Negro" can be our buddy and we can go fishin' together... Maybe a ball game... But this is all dependent on "the Negro" to act in a subservient manner... I have seen it all my life...

But let "the Negro" have real opinions on why he or she can't get a job at... or be paid the same as... or go to this or that and "the Negro" falls in disfavor... That's the way it is in the South... I fear that's the way it is in other places, too...

I mean, if we are to ever achieve "intergration" then we're going to have to get the rednecks seperated from the nooses and the microphones... We had an elderly, and quite conservative, couple for lunch today... They are gardeners and we have that in common... But to hear what they had to say had me washin' dihes and cleanin' up the kitchen fir fear of screamin' them off the farm... Yeah, UI bit my tongue because the P-Vine is fond of the elderly lady because of their gardening interests but it took all my discipline to not make a major scene... All of it...

It is hard being white these days....Very hard... I can't apologize for all white people when I'd love to do so... I can do it here in cyberworld hopin' that some cyberspy don't turn me in and it comes known to my neigbors that I don't approve of their ideas abnout blacks being the problem... But I think that I can be a difference in bringing black performers into "Hooterville" in the hopes that theese rural Virgina whiote folks will have their cultures challenged.... It's about all I can do tho it ain't much on the local level...

Yeah, I live in an area where white kids would think a noose might be a childish prank... Where their parents would blame black people for over-reacting if some of their kids took offense... It ain't easy... We need to collectively, as a nation, say that Jim Crow was some of America's most screwed up history...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:42 PM

There were some foolish actions taken by BOTH black & white kids in this series of incidents....and now, sides are being taken, not about what actually happened, but on 'history' and perceived attitudes.

Once Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson arrive on the scene, the issues are shoved WAY beyond whether this was "just a high school fight" or not. There should have been an IMMEDIATE effort to find who hung up those nooses, and the guilty ones suspended....and the same with the kids who attacked and beat the boy. Serious criminal charges involving 20+ years in prison are way out of line, unless more evidence than accusations are offered.

This is escalation...on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:42 PM

Lonesome J, imo, a person doesn't have to drink from the well and kell over and die to prove that the water in the well has been poisoned.

Imo, what is going on in that Louisiana town {if not the entire Louisiana county} is suspect given the personal and institutitional racism of that town of Jena and in that county, racism that has been reported by Black and by White people in that town, racism which is typified by the inequities of the school officials and police's actions and lack of actions in the assault case in which the White student Justin Barker received injuries that did not even result in him being hospitalized, but which led to the arrests, charges, and imprisonment of the "Jena 6". And also the actions and lack of actions that have been documented in that town, including and subsequent to the hanging nooses.

Regardless if Mychel Bell's four previous arrests for assault & battery were justified {and having no information about those charges, given the town's and county's institutional racism I wonder whether any or all of those previous charges were justified}, I certainly still do not feel that the initial charge of murder with regard to the Justin Barker assault was justified or that the reduced charge {and I believe conviction} for 2nd degree murder is justifiable.

And btw, it doesn't matter to me that the County prosecutor is Black, White, or Green. Imo, and as Spaw wrote upthread, that charge of 2nd degree murder did not fit the crime that was committed.   

**

Bobert, if the "Please don't apologize for what white America has done..." statement is directed to me, my 20 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM is not an apology. Nor is it a request for an apology. That post is a statement of facts and a consideration of motives as I see them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:55 PM

Oops!

Lonesome EJ, please excuse me for calling you out of your name.
I didn't do that on purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:50 PM

"The cases have been picked up and backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center who are providing the defense attorneys..."


               The NAACP Legal Defense Fund has offered to provide the kids with attorneys. That would be much better for them and for the court proceedings that for an organization as contraversial as the Southern Poverty Law Center to interject itself into the mix, probably for motivations of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:31 AM

Whoa! With all due respect, Riginslinger, the SPLC has a long history of advocacy for victims of racial bias, i.e. hate crimes. I've met with and discussed such with Morris Dees. If they are interested in this case it is because they see merit in the defence of those charged with the crime. The only controversy I've ever seen of them is when they win a case and a KKK member has to turn over all of his property to the mother of a young man he murdered. I am sure some of the other KKK types weren't too happy with that. There are many more cases of such.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:45 AM

Azizi, Lonesome J works just as well.

I don't know a thing about Bell's history other than what the District Attorney said, and he seemed like a reasonable and articulate fellow. Was Bell, because he is black, persecuted in Jena to the point where he's accumulated 5 assault arrests in his 16 years? Possibly. I don't know enough about the case to say definitively yes or no. Was a charge of attempted 2nd degree murder justified? I doubt it. But I have heard nothing that leads me to believe Bell did not, with five friends, assault and knock unconscious the white teenager.

I don't doubt that racism is endemic to small towns all over the south, hell, all over the midwest, and the southwest too. But thousands marching to protest harsh treatment for a band of thugs ONE YEAR after the noose incident?

This ain't marching for voter's rights in Selma, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,yawn
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:59 AM

Mexican gang members in southern California have "shoot on sight" rules regarding blacks. I don't watch TV, but I assume thousands of reporters are swarming southern Cal covering that story, right?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:12 AM

There was a good article in the UK Guardian a few days ago.

This one- eyed application of the law is not confined to the USA though. The terrorism panic is creating similar asymmetries in the UK. It's impossible to get juries to convict racist activists, but for Moslems in partuicular, to be accused is to be convicted. And on one of the few occasions when a racist was convicted of terror crimes- he was stockpiling bomb making materials- he was allowed every benefit of the doubt and given a short sentence. Whereas a Moslem covicted of possessing not actua;l explosives, but merely links to web pages about explosives, can expect a sentence ten times as long.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM

It is unfortunate that Sharpton, Jackson and other of their ilk with their agendas and their dupes descended on Jena. The young troublemakers (and arsonists?) of both races should have been dealt with early on. I suspect school authorities failed to take action because of fears of being accused of racism and the situation was allowed to simmer and finally boil over.
The townspeople wisely stayed indoors and closed most businesses during the invasion, and the mixed race police of the town and county wisely kept a low profile.

Sadly, normal relations will now be set back for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:39 AM

So it is in the land of the free and the home of the brave:

The whites have the privilege to be free, and the blacks have the privilege to be brave (Vietnam, Irak etc.)

Is it still waving?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:46 AM

Anger in search of a cause.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Alba
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:48 AM

Slight drift. Interesting post there Wilfried.
I saw a shocking and at the same time wonderfilled touring exhibition a number of Years ago in Glasgow Scotland.
It was about the History of the Native Americans and the impact of Settlers on their Culture and Lives.
What has remained stuck in my Memory was the very last room of the exhibition which had only two very large sepia colored photographs on opposite walls.
One was of a young Sioux Warrior hanging from a tree with 'white' men posing beneath the corpse with their rifles. The other very large photograph was of another young Sioux Warrior in full battle dress on his Horse.
The background soundtrack playing in this sad room was the very line you mention being sung over and over again.
" Land of the Free and Home of the Brave "

I have not yet arrived at my own personal opinion regarding "The Jena 6 controversy"

Best to all.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:07 AM

I agree with Bill D and Q. From the little that I have learned about this case it does sound as though the local authorities in general did too little too late to prevent the escalation. All the principals seem to be teenage boys - testosterone charged and tending to see violence as the answer to problems, whatever their race or creed. The school, at least, should have been aware of the way in which this could escalate and should maybe have been making more effort to arbitrate between the groups.

At this point it would be very difficult to go back and unravel all the threads that knit this together, but that would be the only thing that might actually lead to some sort of real justice being done.

Problem is, IMHO, once the likes of Sharpton and Jackson get involved the whole thing just gets blown up to a point where it is almost impossible for a non confrontational solution to be found and the actual facts get buried under the hate rhetoric from both sides.

Just my five cents worth, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:11 AM

"Whoa! With all due respect, Riginslinger, the SPLC has a long history of advocacy for victims of racial bias, i.e. hate crimes."


                  I agree that sometimes they seem to be on the right side of history, but I would rank Morris Dees right up there with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They're really in it for the self aggrandizement it brings to themselves. Considerations for victims definitely takes a back seat with these people.

                  Just my opinion.

                  I think the kids would be better off with good stable legal representation, that moves forward with the defendant's interests at the center of their focus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM

Who, in their right mind, would tell a group of Black students in a small Louisiana town to just go and sit under a tree that had been the exclusive territory of "white" students, without anticipating, and preparing for some "culture shock"?

When the "responsible" leaders in a community don't deal with these issues when they come up, it falls to the irresponsible leaders, who are the noose-hangers and the headkickers--and when Fox News and Al Sharpton show up, you've lost big time--

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:19 AM

Looks like one big CF. Next there'll be tents set up and the circus will start.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:43 AM

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Riginslinger, though I totally disagree with you on your take on Morris Dees. The man is completely committed to fighting racism and inequality without any self-aggrandizement, from what I have seen.

Incidentally, here's a posting from HateWatch. WARNING - not for the faint at heart:



As tens of thousands of people were preparing to make their way to Jena, La., for today's anti-racism rally, white supremacists were burning up the Internet with furious denunciations, bloody predictions, promises of future violence, and calls for lynching.

"The best crowd control for such a situation would be a squad of men armed with full automatics and preferably a machine gun as well," is how one person put it on the Web forum hosted by the neo-Nazi Vanguard News Network. Added another hopeful VNN poster: "I'm not really that angry at the nogs [a recent variation on an ancient racial slur] — they are just soldiers in an undeclared race war. But any white that's in that support rally I would like to … have them machine-gunned."

As the rally began to unfold this morning, it became clear that it would attract huge numbers of people, perhaps even the 40,000 that some organizers had predicted. They came to protest the case of the "Jena 6," black youths who were charged with serious crimes for an attack on a white youth not long after white teens who had targeted blacks were let off with a slap on the wrist. White supremacists reacted with a strange mixture of anger and admiration for the organizing behind the rally.

But the dominant response was violent rage. "I think a group of White men with AK rifles loaded with high capacity magazines should close in on the troop of howler monkeys from all sides and compress them into a tight group, and then White men in the buildings on both sides of the shitskinned hominids shall throw Molotov cocktails from above to cleanse the nigs by fire," wrote "NS Cat" on VNN. Another poster fantasized about a terrorist attack in Jena today: "Wouldn't that be sweet? Gosh darn, wouldn't that be sweet? Good LORD wouldn't THAT be SWeeeeEET? Boom, Boom, no more Coon! Well? A White man can dream can't he?"

"If these blacks want a race war," added a poster on Stormfront, another white supremacist Web forum, "they will get one. Bring it on."

In Roanoke, Va., an especially virulent purveyor of race hate, neo-Nazi Bill White, this afternoon posted the home addresses and phone numbers of five of the six black youths who make up the Jena 6 under this headline: "Addresses of Jena 6 Niggers: In Case Anyone Wants to Deliver Justice." White, the leader of the American National Socialist Workers Party, suggests that readers "get in touch and let them know justice is coming." Another White posting on the matter doesn't hold anything at all back: "Lynch the Jena 6."

Robert Moore, a well-known neo-Nazi leader from Baton Rouge, La., apparently abandoned plans he had discussed on Stormfront Wednesday to protest the Jena rally, possibly while carrying guns. Instead, he wrote later, "If they DO start rioting and looting and burning and raze the town to the ground, White Pride Construction will be there the next day to help them rebuild." In fact, Moore's company, started in 2005, has done a great deal of post-Katrina rebuilding on the Gulf Coast — a truly remarkable thing, given that its name includes a widely known racist slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:12 PM

With regard to the desire that things go back to normal in Jena, Louisiana before Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and thousands of protestors came to that town for protest marches:

"Normal" was having the tree where only White students could sit. "Normal" is having White people get off with only a slap on the wrists if that for crimes they commit, while Black people get charged with and convicted of 20 years and other ridiculously long charges for the same or similar type of action.

What is normal in Jena is the fact that Mychel Bell, a Black teenager was charged with attempted murder for a teenage fight in which the White teen wasn't even hospitalized. Mychel Bell is still in jail on $90,000 bond. And I believe that he might still have had that attempted murder charge if bloggers and other advocates of justice- {I am referring to Black bloggers, White bloggers, and bloggers of other races} had not directed cyberspace attention and advocacy to this travesty of justice. Jackson and Sharpton are Johnny come latelys regarding this case. However, if they help to keep media attention to this case so that justice will finally be served and a better, equitable "normal" develops in the town of Jena-I say good on them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed equally under the law, nor should they be.

Let's put aside the race implications for just a moment. If I tell someone I will hang him, that can be treated as a threat, and that person could take out a restraining order on me. If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious (whether he's subsequently hospitalized or not), that is a clear assault.

I know you will reply that the race implications can NOT be put aside, but the basic charges under the existing system of law require some order, predictability, and consistency. Within that context, should other factors such as race-hate be taken into consideration? Certainly.

Should the case of Mychal Bell be a precedent for changing the way our laws are enforced? It certainly doesn't seem to me so. Do we need to change our racial attitudes? Absolutely. But my God that's difficult to do. I routinely receive jokes via email from otherwise intelligent and educated white folks that contain the same old tired and mean racist jokes. I'm frankly sick of their assumption that because I am white it's ok. I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well. I don't know what it will take to end it, but I can't see that the Jena 6 situation does anything but provoke more polarity and anger. It seems clear to me that the supposed persecution of Mychal Bell as a cause celebre' for the abolition of repression is counter-productive in uprooting the deeper racial problems that plague us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM

No one ever has the right to throw the first punch.
Ever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:55 PM

"If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious...that is a clear assault.

No, it is battery, maybe attempterd murder. Assault can be as benign as standing in front of someone who wants to walk down the street unobstructed.



"I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well."

Listen to Rap. The hatred is right out there and "in your face".

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

All that said, so fuckin' what? The kids have not been treated fairly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

Thanks, Peace. That is my point.

And that said, I've said all I want to say in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM

"Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't
see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed
equally under the law, nor should they be."

In fact, in the legal definition of 'assault' the display of a
lynch-noose to an African American is ABSOLUTELY an assault, where
Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to
do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone
or club in a threatening manner.

I commend to you the web site Lynching in America
to educate yourself as why this particular symbol of white supremacy
is so powerful and has been defined as, in and of itself, a hate
crime.

The noose is to the black person what the swastika or oven is to the Jew.
A symbol which cannot be minimized. It means 'murder' to any black
man or woman who would dare violate Jim Crow's rule of 'law' or
the myriad non-codified matters of practice that made up racist
America.

The 'White Tree,' the noose for the black kid who'd dare to sit
under said tree; all of it was violence and incitement to violence.

The dirty rotten irony is that the same white men (and one man who
appears to be black only on the outside) who set up and tolerated
the very conditions leading to the inevitable result of racial
violence are now tut-tutting over the outcome when it happened. "The
men who spurred us on, sit in judgment of our wrongs."

If the Federal Government will step in and take over a school system
because of 'No Child Left Behind' test scores, they ought to take
Jena's over because those children are being left behind in the
middle of the Jim Crow era as regards their personal ethics.

There's only one thing wrong with what Azizi said---- the word
'blogger' is now considered offensive, and that group now prefers
to be referred to as 'Blogging-Americans.' :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

Greg: That is one of the best posts I have ever read on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM

Greg B, are you an attorney? Frankly, the bias in the rest of your statement makes me doubt your objectivity on the charges. Who held the noose? And who specifically was it directed toward? You say it is incitement to violence. Was the display of the noose done by the victim of the later violence? And legally, is the "display of a club" equivalent to beating someone with it? Are you saying that the display of the noose was directed toward all black students by all white students, and therefore retaliation by any black student(s) against any white student is justified?

When emotion, even understandable emotion, predominates over rule of law, then there is no law.