BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 06:49 PM

Melissa--- the story took a decidedly different turn when
the nooses appeared. It was escalated to a different level.

If I'm driving down the street and a black dude cuts me off,
and I yell out 'stupid asshole!' that's one thing. It's quite
another, and apt to escalate considerably more quickly if I
yell out 'stupid nigger!'

Heck, he probably knows and accepts that he's an asshole. But
almost no self-respecting black man considers himself a 'nigger,' as
the term is applied to him by a white man.

New game, new rules, at that point.

I've just invoked a few years of oppression and bigotry in order to
'put him in his place.'

Of course, it would still be illegal for him to come over and beat
the living crap out of me.

That might not stop him.

And a jury of his peers might well find him 'not guilty.'

And maybe they should.

You use the analogy of pads as a misogynist symbol. Okay, that
would be one kind of statement. But what if the symbol, instead,
said 'no wimmen allowed: violators will be raped'?

Nooses displayed to black folks; rape threatened to women;
swastikas spray-painted on synagogues: All of these are more
serious than mere epithets because they evoke the very symbols
of oppression and genocide which cause, and are intended to cause,
visceral feelings ranging from anger to terror in those to whom
they're directed.

I submit that if the Jena 6 (or the black folks of Jena) had been
given justice--- the right to sit under the shade tree at the
high school--- in the first place, this whole thing wouldn't have
gotten out of hand.

No justice, no peace. Isn't that the saying?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM

"And a jury of his peers might well find him 'not guilty.'

And maybe they should."

That's what we need. Some more racially-motivated law enforcement. Look--there's a fundamental difference between abuse (verbal, symbolic or verbal) and physical harm.
At most, the nooses were a bigoted, venom-filled, abusive, stupid example of a hate misdemeanor. As were the nooses and the caricature/swastika at Columbia. Perpetrators should be punished. Appropriately

Which in no way excuses violent reprisals. Is it only a vigilante action when majority dudes do it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:47 PM

Hey, y'all. It's real hard to get the egg back in the hen (if ya know what I mean).

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:51 PM

Something that leads to the obvious conclusion probably didn't take the story a different direction. Somebody was looking for a fight and the storyline (as far as we know) didn't deviate from that goal.
The nooses are an obvious step toward escalation, but that's not where the story started.

There are a lot of sayings, GregB.
At the instant when you're calling someone an asshole for cutting you off, you're looking for a fight. Fortunately, in most cases, the fight doesn't happen.
Sometimes it does happen though and nobody has any way of knowing the full story because each person involved happens to think of themselves as a person. Confrontation is an aggressive attempt to defend individuality.

Implied threat of rape.
Implied threat of lynching.
Which one is the media spectacle when it turns from implication to reality?

The discussion at hand is a case where we're being given information that manages to distract most of us from the underlying problem. There were more than seven kids present at the fight. Where were they during the beating? Why one white kid? Why not the whole treestump gang? Why not three noose hangers?
There are gaps in the story and basing a judgement on the parts we know does not advance our collective grasp of the underlying problem.

Without knowing the full story and having the capability of completely understanding exactly what the tree issue was/is, WHY would you assume that justice would have prevailed IF the 6 had been given the spot?
BandAids are not an effective treatment for fractures.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM

My neighbor has hung a cardboard black man in Halloween in effigy on the telephone pole with a noose in front of their home.

The telephone pole is on city easement property so I bet a controversey could be raised.

There is no sign indicating the hanging is intended for anything except Halloween entertainment.

The people who did this of course display their Bush Christmas cards at the entrance to their house and speak in in proud language that Rumsfeld and Cheney are great Americans. I have also heard them use all the code word regarding their embracing the core values of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:52 AM

Down here the polite excuse for racism is "Its just their way"

Hey would you like a picture of the lyching display next door to judge for yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

Are you offering me a picture, Donuel?
Maybe you could send it to someone in a position to help you DO something instead. I'm sure the media would be glad to see it if your Locals can't/won't make a healthy effort.

I don't understand why you haven't called the phone company and asked them to clean their pole. If you're afraid to call, give me the number of your phone company and I'll do it.

Where I'm from, the polite term for doing nothing when a problem is identified is "horseshit" and snarling at strangers is considered impolite.
It sounds like your community needs something. You're the leader, tell me what I can do to help.
Good effort toward making the world less ugly is never wasted.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:10 PM

Noose-hanging is popular right now, it seems:

By Tom Hays, Associated Press | October 13, 2007

NEW YORK - A copycat may have been involved in the second of two incidents this week in which nooses were found, first on a black professor's door at Columbia University and then outside a post office near ground zero, police said yesterday.

Speaking to reporters following a ceremony at a police memorial, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly suggested that the noose outside the post office could have been an attempt to imitate the discovery at Columbia, which shocked the Ivy League campus and received extensive news coverage.

"We have to be concerned about a copycat being out there," he said, adding that police had no suspects or motives in either incident.

At Columbia, detectives were still reviewing several hours of videotape captured by a half dozen security cameras in and around the building where the noose was found Tuesday morning. It was strung over the office doorknob of Madonna Constantine, a professor of education and psychology who has written extensively about race.

In the other case, the noose was found Thursday dangling from a lamppost above some scaffolding erected around the post office, which was closed for nearly three years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks because of contamination from asbestos, mercury, and debris from the fallen twin towers.

"At this point, there was no target that was evident or any motive," a US Postal Inspection Service spokesman, Al Weissman, said yesterday morning. He said no postal workers had reported any threats or other problems.

Both incidents were being investigated by the New York City Police Department's hate crimes unit, which returned to the Ivy League campus Thursday after a caricature of a yarmulke-wearing man and a swastika was found on a university bathroom stall door. Police said there was no reason to believe the two campus incidents were linked.
© Copyright 2007 Globe Newspaper Company.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:50 PM

Dick---

Greenhaus.

That's a Jewish name, isn't it?

Suppose I paint a swastika on your daughter's (or grand-daughter's)
window, because she maybe slapped our cousin 'Beau' in the face
when he said that he heard that Jewish girls were easy?

Then we get her cell-phone number and text her a few messages
threatening rape.

You go to the sheriff.

He ignores you. You're a Jew, and convenient because you own a local
business, but that doesn't mean he has to like you.

You and your sons kick my butt.

Do you have pangs of conscience and say that my behavior doesn't
excuse yours? Do you surrender yourself and your sons for
incarceration, leaving your daughter/grand-daughter undefended?

Or do you make it very clear--- 'mess with one of us and you mess
with all of us?'

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM

Greg-
I never have, and never will join a lynch mob. And hanging a noose-like object, reprehensible as it may be, is not the equivalent of having
"You and your sons kick my butt.". Certainly not with a time interval of several weeks.

I have been attacked, physically for being Jewish--and I responded in kind. THat simply is not what's being discussed here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:51 AM

Well, I think what both Melissa dn Greg are saying is not all that far apart...

Yes there are missing parts from the story and it is exactly that that makes the controversy...

Why weren't the white kids criminally charged for hanging the noose??? Why were the sespensions lifted??? Why were there no charges brought against the white students who beat one of the Jena 6 black students days before the white kid was beaten???

Yes, there are missing parts of the story... Just as in the old train accident log that I possess where there are entries that read like this: "Unindentified Male Negro, 20 to 25 years of age, found dead on the tracks 2 miles west of Short Pump..."

This is what many of us are trying to get others to see... Institutional racism is all about holes in the story becuase, all to often, the official story ins't that from an American perspective but from white America's perspective... Take our own supposed "American History" that is taught in schools... It is chocked full of mythology and white perspectives...

This is why this has become a story... White America resents that it has become a story and would love nothing more than to leave out the missing parts and that seems to be where this is going... I can't see the white power structure in Jena, having come this far to cover-up it's own comlicity, all of a sudden saying, "Let's talk straight..."

That is what ***institutional*** racism is all about... It is part of our ***culture*** to not "Let's talk"... I'm really not placing blame on any one individual because what we are seeing is the way that our people have been educated to bahave,,,

That is why, in my HO, it is time to "talk"... We can't begin to tout our country as a just one when there isn't one universal standard of justice...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:02 AM

"Why weren't the white kids criminally charged for hanging the noose???"

                      Hanging nooses is not against the law.


          "Why were the sespensions lifted???"

       They shouldn't have been, and that's what really started things into motion that eventually built a fire under Al Sharpton.


    "Why were there no charges brought against the white students who beat one of the Jena 6 black students days before the white kid was beaten???"

                If the media is reporting on this, I haven't seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 10:29 AM

In his New York Times Op-Ed (referenced somewhere above) the Jena
DA claimed that he referred the issue of the nooses to the US
attorney for the area. He was careful to point out that said US
attorney is a black man. (I was careful to point out that he's
a Bush administration official who survived the 'purge.') His claim
was that the US Attorney found that the nooses were not a "hate crime"
and thus not a violation of federal law.

That's not the way I read the federal statute. In fact, I can't fathom
a reasonable person reading it that way. School = protected activity.
Noose = actual violence or threat of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

The hate crime statute under which the investigations of the NYC noose incidents that Katlaughing posted above is essentially the same as the the Louisiana law--so, in fact, hanging nooses *is* against the law. However, prosecutions are strictly at the discretion of the prosecutor, and he has chosen not to act in this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

The statue in question is a FEDERAL one, not a
state one. It was under that statute that the
federal prosecutor declined to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:52 AM

GregB--I think that you've stepped way over the line with your "Greenhaus, that's a...." comment. In your own way you're hanging a noose on a tree, because you don't like what Dick has to say--

When you invoke the holocaust,call attention to his ethnicity, and are very specific as to some of the terrors that people of his background have been subjected to, the message can easily be construed as hateful--I hope that it was only an over-zealous, and ill-considered remark. An apology, quick, and profuse, would appropriate here--

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM

Gentlemen, it's time to take a look at the remarks we're posting here. I see no point turning this thread into a spiteful thread. The problem is in Jena, USA, not Mudcat, World.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:24 PM

Ted, the only line I crossed is one that you might make up
after the fact about political correctness. I'm not real concerned
about that one.

It was indeed probably because of their shared experience
that American Jews were amongst the first white folks to in great
numbers and with great effect embrace the question of civil rights for
African Americans. That experience indeed goes beyond the Holocaust,
and extends to CENTURIES of being the subject of terrible acts of
violence with no redress in the legal system. And, while this was
happening, they were exploited for their 'useful' services. C.F. Venice in the Renaissance. It is failure to mention that connection
which does a disservice to all.

I submit, Ted, that you're not so much worried about the way
the point was made, but afraid of the point itself and using the
politically correct fog of pseudo-indignation to try and negate it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:36 PM

Lots of words and very little communication.
The things we're thinking/feeling are too big for our vocabulary..although we're an undeniably brilliant bunch.

I'm out.
M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:51 PM

I am talking about Louisiana Statute RS 14:225, linked to above--the one that the local prosecutor is responsible enforcing--most hate crimes are investigated by "hate crime squads" that are operated under the authority of state and local governments--the federal government prosecutes relatively few hate crimes--the Federal Hate Crime statute applies only if a Federal Felony of Violence has been committed-

Here is a quote from the following article, from the Houston Chronicle
Federal Prosecution of Hate Crimes

>Donald Washington, the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Louisiana, chose not to >pursue hate crime charges against the three teens accused of hanging nooses at Jena High >School because it could not be established that the nooses were meant to intimidate black >classmates. He also did not bring hate-crime charges against the Jena Six, black students >accused of attacking a white classmate, because there was no evidence the beating was >acially motivated.

>Washington said that the noose-hanging would have been a misdemeanor anyway and a hate->crime must be "a federal felony of violence."

Note that the federal prosecutor indicated that he considered the noose-hanging to be misdemeanor--which means that it could have been prosecuted under Louisiana law(see the link above), had the local prosecutor wanted to do so, but that it didn't meet the criteria of the Federal Law--

The only investigation of these crimes was conducted locally-- the information on the crimes that the federal prosecutor received came only from Reed Walters, the local prosecutor, who had decided already that there were no racial motivations in the noose hangings--so obviously, he wouldn't have made a strong case to the federal prosecutor that it was a racial incident--

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:29 PM

Just to clarify my position--
I have no idea whether or not a legal case can be mede for considering noose hanging as a hate crime. I think the principal's proposed action in suspending the culprits was an appropriate one.

I think that the white kids who assaulted a black kid should be prosecuted, and I think that a failure to prosecute them is unconscionable. THose in authority should be investigated and punished appropriately.

I don't think any of the above justifies--in any way-- te actions of the six black kids who beat up a white kid.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:33 PM

Well, as I have pointed out before, it's up to the asdults to bring the charges... It's up to the judges and juries to figure it out...

Hate crimes is federal... When a noose was recently found at a black progfessors office it was being invetigated as a hate crime... If the prosecutor in Jena had at the very least mentioned that thease white kids could have possibly be brought up on hate crime charges then a ***real*** message would have been sent...

He didn't, and in not doing so sent another message: Jim Coew is just okay, with us, long as you don't kill nobody...

This is a terrible message to send... All it doen is enforce all the emotions that both blacks and whites have had to live with going back a long, long time...

Melissa,

Don't quit now... It's just gettin' good... I mean, meaningful... You can't just stop in and if you don't persuade everyone with your opinions then quit... That ain't what discussions are about... And this discussion is long overdue...

Yes, I fully understand Dick's position and it is one that is heal be lots of people... I don't find fault with it if it is taken purely as one incident... No, we cannot condone violent acts, period...

But we cannot condone acts of threatned violence, either...

That is what is at issue here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:26 PM

Read the link above on Federal Prosecution of Hate Crimes, Bobert, you will be unpleasantly surprised. Most hate crimes are investigate and prosecuted by state and local jurisdictions, under state laws, not federal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM

And I'll clarify my position (in spite of attempts at PC
censorship).

Whereas retaliatory racial violence may or may not be objectively
justified, it is the inevitable result when racial violence
is initiated by the dominant group, and where justice is not
given by other members of that dominant group who are duty-bound
to enforce the law.

It is fairly easy, from the point of view of one who is not
the member of a group which is currently under organized attack,
or oppression to criticize those who either, in a calculated manner,
return violence for violence, or lash out in anger at members of the
dominant group.

To demand a 'civilized' and 'reasoned' response from those who
face oppression and organized violence is, however, to buy right
into what dominant groups who have most of the guns and the
courts and the laws and the prisons and the economic power have
done for a long time...to declare that the ones with grievances
are nothing but hooligans, thugs and 'terrorists.'

The results become clear--- the 'White Night' and Rodney King riots,
Watts, Newark, Detroit. Closer to home, the 9/11 attacks and the
aftermath bear witness to what happens when we sit in our positions
of power and refuse to act justly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

Greg-
A spirited and coherent defense of lynch mobs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM

I guess I am the one who is politically correct here, and my ears are burning-- Greg B, you sure have showed us all what's what, with your regurgitation of warmed over 60's Marxist political analysis--

By the way, it's been 40 years since Newark and Watts and Detroit, where's your Revolution?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:53 PM

I agree, Bobert. The conversation is inching away from spouting and into a small handful of people sharing their perspectives. The topic's practical aspect is that we can talk in here without the risk of a FireEater riling us into reacting as a mindless group. We're on our own to do whatever we will with the tidbits we selectively pluck from everybody's opinions. There's no point in saying the same thing over and over. When/if I have something to say, I will. In the meantime, I'm perfectly content following along from the sidelines.

I honestly believe that we're stepping into a time of More tension, and it worries me. Treating each incident as an individual outburst (which may or may not fit the mysterious guidelines for becoming a Media Spectacle) seems unwise and unhealthy. Jena is not the Disease..it is a Symptom.

The North/South argument was too big to handle at the time and it's still too big. It was not resolved and every one of us is living with that history. When we try to communicate, we are following the footsteps of Jefferson's basic idea when he was fighting to promote a government based on input from Common Man. I think it's a good thing for us to do when we're talking AND listening. Pompous pronouncements are pretty much a waste of earspace, but that's ok too. It's all part of trying to communicate.
My ego is ok. I don't need to care whether I've won anyone to my bandwagon.

What I hope to gain by following this discussion is a chance to be a little bit more prepared as the CivWar anniversary draws near. I'm likely to end up participating in a few events. It's not the era I prefer (which is pre-1840) but it's the one at hand and there's a niche for me that I'll enjoy. I just want to be as prepared as I possibly can, even if I opt out of attending events. CivWar is an angry topic for a lot of people and the anniversary stuff is going to start being visible before long.
Planning for Lewis and Clark was handled poorly. I see no reason to believe CW will be handled much better and it's a much more incendiary topic.

When I read what you all say, I'll learn.
I just don't have anything to add at this time and sometimes being quiet is the noble option to take.

My question isn't whether nooses are a hate crime. I think we all agree that whether they're legal or not, it's Wrong to hang them around.
My question is what can be done about the ones who don't feel that there's anything wrong with feeling justified in doing things like that.
My question falls outside the surface topic of Jena which is what we've come to this thread to discuss.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:44 PM

"My question is what can be done about the ones who don't feel that there's anything wrong with feeling justified in doing things like that."

                The people who hang the nooses, as far as we know, were kids too. They very well might have realized that there was something wrong with what they did if the principal's original punishment had been left to stand.

                It seems as though Congress is now getting involved. Some members think that the noose hanging should be investigated as a federal "Hate Crime." If that process is pursued to its obvious conclusion, there are going to be some very angry young people getting out of jail in a few years.

                Is this the way to address racism?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:09 PM

Good point. Sure as hell's afire, the courts are making a mess of it all. And the people from their school board, and anyone else who thinks this is about hatred and race. It's about a lack of understanding and race. Therein is the difficulty. It makes me "Remember the Titans."

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:24 PM

Yes, Rigs, this is ***exactlty*** the way we are going to get the attention of kids who plead ignorance... Ignorance is not an excuse....

Bring up a couple of white kids who think it's cool to hang nooses and find them guilty of "hate crimes" and sentence them to a couple hundred hours of coummunity service workin' in places that service poor people an' guess what??? Two or three high profile cases and white kids (and black kids) will get it!!! Right now, what we have is the exact opposite... White kids are made to be heros among their piers for hanging nooses...

Melissa,

Thanks fir hangin' in here... You is a purdy smart lady...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:08 PM

I suppose my cure for ingorance is education. And maybe the principal didn't go far enough, but he suspended the students, and he was countermanded for even doing that.

          It tells you that there are honest people down there. If the kids know better, they can't plead ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM

How do you propose the education be done, Riginslinger?
I know the Jena situation was kids..but I can't think of a single age group that would willingly embrace teachings that run contrary to what they understand/accept as 'right'--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique.

If there was a way to get everybody in the country to participate in a workshop/lecture series where the message was "Everybody is equal. That means nobody is worse than you..and it also means nobody is better than you" there would be a large percentage who would leave the sessions thinking "hey, I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense" and there'd also be a percentage thinking "what a load of shit"

The kids have access to as much positive propaganda as the rest of us. They (and many others) choose not to learn. Some of them are 'going along' but some no doubt feel justified in doing things that they know society considers Wrong..whether they consider it wrong themselves or not.

Sometimes people feel justified in doing things that they know are wrong--and feeling justified feels like Right.
I don't think anybody would disagree that the whole country could use some education. Some of us could benefit from more rewiring than others and even with some extremely intelligent deep, extensive thought, there will always be folks who resist for one reason or another. Some like being mean. Some think everybody else needs some learning but They're ok. Some would simply resist because that's just what they do. Some enjoy rivalry.

Nearly everyone is ready to say "Yes! Educate THEM" but I think it's bigger than that. We're all lacking something and I don't think there's one answer that will even make a dent toward solving the mess. We'd all be glad to see THEM educated, huh?
I have pretty good discretion, but I absolutely detest clowns. When I see one, I get away. I do not beat them up and have not made an effort to find out what the obvious symbol for Clown Intolerance is. I have no interest in embracing the idea that they're a wholesome part of life.
How would you educate me out of this?

Every one of us has weird mindsets.
I'm in a position to influence children..the children and I are in a position to influence our community. Our small town is peacefully diverse. Our town has a festering situation which is not race related, but it IS being done in the name of retaliation/comeuppance and hate by a group working together to teach us a lesson.
It pisses me off and scares me.
How would you teach me around reacting when the time comes for my community to defend itself? Is it wrong for my community to defend itself? The other group feels justified. Are they wrong? They're making strikes and when the festernal restraints burst, it will appear that the community started it. We have asked for help from our State and been ignored. Our story sounds unbelievable and absurd and from the outside, I'm sure it looks like the townies are crazy...at least it would look like we're crazy if we were still trying to get help by talking.

For a purdy smart lady, I do tend to ramble on in an unladylike manner at times..but I'm trying to ramble open-mindedly in hopes that I'll learn something along the line. Maybe I'll figure out a way to keep MY town out of the news. Maybe I'll figure out how to help direct upcoming CivWar events in a way that can avoid friction. Saving the World begins at home.

There are honest people everywhere, Riginslinger. I imagine that town is a miserable place to be these days.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM

Hmmmmmm, M, I thought that you were talkin' about my town!?!?!...

Seems there is a culture/cancer on the moral fablic of our society that says intolerance is just fine... And I don't see any major movement, other than groups like Interfaith, that are carrying the message that it ain't fine...

I mean, we have a president (slight thread drift) who has publicly stated "you're either with us or against us"... There is now way to find common ground with that attitude...

We need a major shift in thinking... We need another Dr. King...

But until then, we need to have the courgae to enforce "hate crime" laws...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

"--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique."

             Melissa - Brainwashing is what they are vicitms of now, I think, and I don't know what to suggest as for your aversion to clowns. I think Al Sharpton is a clown, and Jena would probably be better off if he went away.

             I think the concept of a "hate crime" is self defeating. I don't think you can punish people for their thoughts, and hanging nooses simply isn't a crime. I would agree it's provocative, and bad form, and should be punishable by school officials but not by agents of courts.

             By education, I guess I've noticed that people who seem to drift into racist groups seem like the very least educated people I've run across, and people who do not are usually more aware of what's going on around them.
             It further seems to me that with all of the anthropolical and genetic information that's available to day, not to mention all of the scientific findings that become public every day, I just can't imagine how anyone in this day and age can continue to believe in terms of "superior and inferior" races.
             It would have been more believable with Hitler in the 1940's, and probably understandable with Columbus in 1492, but not now.
             I find the same disbelief in people who continue to follow various ancient superstitions, given all of the knowledge that's out there today, and I doubt very much if you could find an atheist who is a racists at the same time. I think there is a connection here. Find someone who will happily believe in fairy tales, and you'll find a person who can be molded into racism.

             I doubt if "work shops" will do it, but if you can get people to simply deal with reality, I think you'll be well on your way to stamping out racism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

How?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

The best advice is to ignore the next noose like piece of rope you see.

Its always best to ignore the troll.

And for God's sake don't tell Sharpton anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:08 PM

"How?"

       Leave religion in the past where it belongs, and deal with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

So..if we could just get everybody to ditch religion, it would all go away? All religions, or shall we just select the ones we disapprove of?
What in the world does that notion have in common with Reality?

I thought you were going to tell me how the Education Plan could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM

Well, Rigs, our current "reality" is that most folks in this country consider themselves, ahhhhh, religious... This is the hand that we are playing... And most people according to a recent USA Today poll don't even believe in science anymore as a majority of Americans believe in creationism with Adam and Eve being created less than 10,000 years ago...

Why is this??? Simple... The Ruling Class wants people dumb and at each other's throats so they spend lots of money creating meaningless wedge issues to keep people from seein' that it's not one's believe in evolution v. creationism taht really matters but why it is that their family's income has been stagnant for the last 20 years and why stuff is so expensive at a time when the Ruling Class is telling US that we have never had it so good...

Racism is one of the tools used by the Ruling Class... It's nuthin' new... Goes back to the old therory of "divide and conquer" so they keep US divided... This ain't about Dems or Repubs... It's about the folks who have corraled all the country's assests for themselves...

Yeah, it's easy to say that eductaion can lead US out of this mess and that is absolutely true... But don't count on Boss Hog's school systems that tailor the curriculum to keep kids from learning to think... Most of the teachers came thru the same sytem and aren't able to think either... Oh sure, they are dedicated... I can't fault them tat... But most are completely incapable of independent thought...

And guess what??? One of the great eductationhal tools is Hollywood and Hollywood, contrary to the right wing's pronouncement that it's all a bunch of liberals, ain't makin' the kinds of movies anymore that push people to think... Those days are gone...

So it comes down to having to educate people thru enforcing laws... Yeah, law enforcement can be a powerfull eductaional tool and, at present, is IMO, all we have until the new breed of evangelicals gain a foothold...

No one ever said it was going to be easy to kill Jim CDrow and it's very possible that Jim Crow cannot be killed but we kicked his butt purdy good in the 60's and he's due for another...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:57 PM

It's probably important to point out that the Ku Klux Klan, the World Church of the Creator, and the Aryan Nations are all religious organizations. None of these folks would be terribly helpful in any effort to solve the frustration of racism. Of course, that's just my opinion.

                  It is further my opinion that any attempt to reason with these folks would not be fruitful unless they could be induced to digest factual, scientific information that would prove to them that a superior race is not biologically possible, or at least highly improbable. But when confronted with the truth as I have come to know it, they simply run off into their fairy tale worlds, where they feel snug and cozy, and happily deny reality.

               I think this is basically the way religion works, though it is more extreme for some than others. So if you are really going to get down to the brass-tacks of solving complicated issues like racism, you have to get everyone to the bargaining table in a sober state of mind. I submit that that is going to be very hard to do as long as there are Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons out there telling gullible people that they just need to "trust in the lord," and that facing reality is not realy necessary.

               They can gleefully hang nooses, beat people who look different than themselves, roll around on the floor of the church on Sunday morning, god forgives them, and on Monday morning they are ready to go out and beat somebody else.

               There's no end in sight, as long as there's a built in escape mechanism like religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM

Bobert - I agree with everything you say in the posting above. I understand that that's the hand we're dealt, and we have to make the best of it.

                   Still, I don't see how anything is lost in trying to broker a better deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:03 PM

The best deal is the deal where everyone finally gets it, Rigs...

The better deal is where enough folks get it to put and keep pressure on those who don't...

The Pat Robertsons and the James Dobsons aren't the future of the evangelical movement... They are the history... There is a wave of new hip evangelicals... They are called "new churchs", I believe... These folks are not only ready to cut a deal with the left but anxious... These evangelicals have taken up two major left issues, the envirnoment and the way we treat our poor...

I beliebve this is the deal that we are in the process of seein' made... Yeah, we need to get these newbees into the fold and once that has occured then "nooses" aren't too much of a stretch (no pun intended)...

I am not all that fatlistic about our future... But I am very much suspect of our school system as any vehicle for changing a culture of racism...

The courts and the new churches, IMO, are going to lead the way...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:11 PM

I think if we treated our schools with a little more respect they might help us a great deal. I think only the public schools can do that, though, as a general rule. Giving people vouchers to send their children to church camp only leads us farther back into the dark ages.

             Frankly, I don't have a lot of hope for any kind of churches, new or otherwise. We could look at it as an evolutionary process, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:48 PM

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to those of you who disparage religion here that the civil rights movement and the anti-slavery movement before it weredriven by religious groups, and were and are closely tied to religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:51 AM

Ok, someone earlier said we need a new Dr King. Let's stop the religion thing before it turns into full-out bashing, and go with the idea of "what if we had a new leader willing to take this on"

This Fearless Leader believes that the symptoms stem from frustration...and the theory s/he is going on is that we first need to identify and eliminate the sources of Frustration which are resulting in violence, hatred, intolerance, etc.

It seems logical for FL to begin the "Fix Campaign" in the area close to home.

What process would you have our hypothetical FL follow to successfully make a noticeable improvement?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

To begin with, hopefully our new FL would not be the
Reverend FL, or he wouldn't have any credibility. And if he/she wasn't, then he'd have to make sure people were coming to the discussion without any hidden agendas of their own, and were actually in the process to find honest solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:25 PM

Apparently, I was too subtle in my invitation to step off the religion soapbox for a while.
I was asking what process FL should follow. It makes sense to define the job before taking applications.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM

I think FL would have to study the proponents of racism to begin with. For a long time I had trouble figuring out why poor whites in the 1860's would eagerly go out and fight for the South, when it would obviously be in their economic interest not to do so. I finally figured out that having somebody to look down on was more important to them than economic prosperity.

          I think this is still a strong motivator for the useful idiots of racism. The leaders, like David Duke and Matthew Hale want power, so they need followers. I think FL would need to concentrate on the followers.

          I was in Northern Idaho a few years ago when the Aryan Nations organization was chewed up by the political forces of Morris Dees. I would run into some of the rank & file memebership, from time to time, and I'm here to tell you, none of them will ever be candidates for Mensa.

          The one thing they thought they had going for them was the strength of their numbers. I get the impression that as long as they, as a group, could gain a feeling of self worth by putting down other people, they were content and vitalized, and were scared literally to death at the thought of losing their social hand-hold in the world.

          Morris Dees was sucessful in scattering them, and putting a few of them in jail, but the others were more committed than ever to pursue their endeavers. I think the Morris Dees approach does more harm than good.

          In any event, I've run on long enough, but the key to the whole thing, I think, is to appeal to their intellect and not try to appeal to their spiritual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:55 PM

I'll gladly agree that FL would not get far on a campaign designed to 'convert' (sorry, can't think of another handy word at the moment) through a spiritual appeal.
I do think a successful approach would need to use church, school, media, etc as Tools though. Presuming FL turns out to have very strong Leadership qualities, I believe it's possible to cover more area by wise use of what's available and established. No reason to reinvent the wheel. Besides, that's where the easiest meeting places are.

What would encourage people to attend a (what would the rallys be called?) gathering thing? Nothing is gained if nobody is interested. I believe there's a fair percentage of people who would be willing to do a little bit toward a positive impact if they could be lured to listen. I think most people like to learn and nearly everybody abhors being talked down to.

So, FL has learned the history from about 1700 up to now..from a variety of sources and perspectives so he can talk confidently.
Is it more effective for him to pull them as Followers..or to plant a seed and send them out hoping for the best? Would it be more productive to try for the unaffiliated, or to aim directly at the ones already following a path of hatred?

I honestly would like to see if a reasonable plan can be worked out by simply talking back and forth. Ideas are easy, Implementation isn't. I imagine a lot of folks have ideas about what should be done but I've never seen a plan for How.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM

Frankly, I think you need to leave the concept of "church" out of it. These are places set up for the purpose of meeting, but they suffer from the same disfunctional qualities that the racist organizations suffer from. The congregation sees itself as a group established to protect itself from other groups. I think that's why most of the wars in the world are religiously based--Jews against Islamists--Protestants against Catholics--Hindus against Moslems, and etc. Either that, or they are really economic struggles and the sides identify themselves by religion. The struggle in Ireland was a lot like that.

                I don't think you can treat them as followers. I think you need to treat them as people. I think that's why the Morris Dees approach doesn't work. He wants to attack the leaders and ingore the follower, so the followers simply seek out another leader, often worse than the first one.

                Frankly, as far as the black and white problem in America, I think MLK went as far as he could with it. I think Barbara Jordan might have carried the ball a little farther down the field, if she'd lived, but...

                  What you need is Jesus Christ without religion, and that's a pretty tall order. The Dali Lama might be able to spare a few moments of his time, now that he's no longer tied up in Washington, but then, of course, he's a Buddhist, so that probably won't work either.

                   Maybe ten thousand Johnny Appleseeds would fill the bill. Whatever the case, the haters would have to be treated as partners and equals, I think, for any kind of progress to be made.