BS: Popular Views on Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

I wonder if McCain will use all of this material in the later stages of the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:25 AM

I have a feeling the old white haired dude is saving his best ammunition for the last volley.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:34 AM

Whom would Mr. Jive Turkey vote for?

The Acorn Indictments

Flashback:

So, less than a week before the midterm elections, four workers from Acorn, the liberal activist group that has registered millions of voters, have been indicted by a federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms to the Kansas City, Missouri, election board. But hey, who needs voter ID laws?

We wish this were an aberration, but allegations of fraud have tainted Acorn voter drives across the country. Acorn workers have been convicted in Wisconsin and Colorado, and investigations are still under way in Ohio, Tennessee and Pennsylvania.

The good news for anyone who cares about voter integrity is that the Justice Department finally seems poised to connect these dots instead of dismissing such revelations as the work of a few yahoos. After the federal indictments were handed up in Kansas City this week, the U.S. Attorney's office said in a statement that "This national investigation is very much ongoing."

Let's hope so. Acorn officials bill themselves as nonpartisan community organizers merely interested in giving a voice to minorities and the poor. In reality, Acorn is a union-backed, multimillion-dollar outfit that uses intimidation and other tactics to push for higher minimum wage mandates and to trash Wal-Mart and other non-union companies.

Operating in at least 38 states (as well as Canada and Mexico), Acorn pushes a highly partisan agenda, and its organizers are best understood as shock troops for the AFL-CIO and even the Democratic Party. As part of the Fannie Mae reform bill, House Democrats pushed an "affordable housing trust fund" designed to use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac profits to subsidize Acorn, among other groups. A version of this trust fund actually passed the Republican House and will surely be on the agenda again next year.

Acorn and its affiliates have pulled some real stunts in recent years. In Ohio in 2004, a worker for one affiliate was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and pillars of the community named Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey. During a Congressional hearing in Ohio in the aftermath of the 2004 election, officials from several counties in the state explained Acorn's practice of dumping thousands of registration forms in their lap on the submission deadline, even though the forms had been collected months earlier.

"You have to wonder what's the point of that, if not to overwhelm the system and get phony registrations on the voter rolls," says Thor Hearne of the American Center for Voting Rights, who also testified at the hearing. "These were Democratic officials saying that they felt their election system in Ohio was under assault by these kinds of efforts to game the system."

Given this history, it's not surprising that Acorn is so hostile to voter identification laws and other efforts to ensure fairness and accuracy at the polls. In Missouri last month, the state Supreme Court held that a photo ID requirement to vote was overly burdensome and a violation of the state constitution. Acorn was behind the original suit challenging the statute, and it has brought similar challenges in several other states, including Ohio.

A recent Pew Research Center survey found that blacks today are almost twice as likely as they were in 2004 to say they have little or no confidence in the voting system. Such a finding would seem like a powerful argument for voter ID laws, which consistently poll well among people of all races and incomes and would increase confidence in the voting process. Of course, voter ID laws would also cut down on fraud, which, judging from the latest indictments, would put a real crimp in Acorn's style.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Barack Obama's closet

"in Chicago, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) is more important than Iraq or Washington. ACORN and its associated Midwest Academy, both founded in the 1970s, continue to train and mobilize activists throughout the country, often using them to manipulate public opinion through "direct action." It's sometimes a code for illegal activities.

Prior to law school, Barack Obama worked as an organizer for their affiliates in New York and Chicago. He always has been an ACORN person -- meeting and working with them to advance their causes. Through his membership on the board of the Woods Fund for Chicago and his friendship with Teresa Heinz Kerry, Obama has helped ensure that they remain funded well.

Since he graduated from law school, Obama's work with ACORN and the Midwest Academy has ranged from training and fundraising, to legal representation and promoting their work. "

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Funds Misappropriated at 2 Nonprofit Groups
STEPHANIE STROM NYT July 9, 2008

Two prominent national nonprofit groups are reeling from public disclosures that large sums of money were misappropriated in unrelated incidents by an employee and a former employee.
   The groups, Acorn, one of the country's largest community organizing groups, and the Points of Light Institute, which works to encourage civic activism and volunteering, have dealt with the problems in very different ways.
   Acorn chose to treat the embezzlement of nearly $1 million eight years ago as an internal matter and did not even notify its board. After Points of Light noticed financial irregularities in early June, it took less than a month for management to alert federal prosecutors, although group officials say they have no clear idea yet what the financial impact may be.
   A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization's founder, Wade Rathke.
   The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group's board members and not to alert law enforcement.
   Dale Rathke remained on Acorn's payroll until a month ago, when disclosure of his theft by foundations and other donors forced the organization to dismiss him.
   "We thought it best at the time to protect the organization, as well as to get the funds back into the organization, to deal with it in-house," said Maude Hurd, president of Acorn. "It was a judgment call at the time, and looking back, people can agree or disagree with it, but we did what we thought was right."
   The amount Dale Rathke embezzled, $948,607.50, was carried as a loan on the books of Citizens Consulting Inc., which provides bookkeeping, accounting and other financial management services to Acorn and many of its affiliated entities.
   Wade Rathke said the organization had signed a restitution agreement with his brother in which his family agreed to repay the amount embezzled in exchange for confidentiality.
   Wade Rathke stepped down as Acorn's chief organizer on June 2, the same day his brother left, but he remains chief organizer for Acorn International L.L.C.
   He said the decision to keep the matter secret was not made to protect his brother but because word of the embezzlement would have put a "weapon" into the hands of enemies of Acorn, a liberal group that is a frequent target of conservatives who object to its often strident advocacy on behalf of low- and moderate-income families and workers.
   Wade Rathke said he learned of the problem when an employee of Citizens Consulting alerted him about suspicious credit card transactions. An internal investigation uncovered inappropriate charges on the cards that led back to his brother.
   "Clearly, this was an uncomfortable, conflicting and humiliating situation as far as my family and I were concerned," he said, "and so the real decisions on how to handle it had to be made by others."
   The executive director of New York Acorn, Bertha Lewis, who has been named director of an interim management committee set up to run the national group's day-to-day operations, said Dale Rathke was paid about $38,000 a year but that none of that money was used to pay back Acorn.
   Instead, she said, the Rathke family has paid Acorn $30,000 a year in restitution since 2001, or a total of $210,000.
   A donor has offered to give Acorn the rest of what the Rathkes owe, and an agreement to that effect should be finalized in coming days, Ms. Lewis said.
   "Now that this is under our watch, we are putting financial auditors in place, legal counsel in place, a strong management team in place to make sure this organization moves forward for another 38 years," she said. "I will not allow and the board will not allow something like this to happen again."
   But the fact that most of the handful of people who did not disclose the fraud when they learned of it eight years ago still work for Acorn or its affiliates concerns many of the group's financial supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

Head of Foundation Bailed Out Nonprofit Group After Its Funds Were Embezzled
STEPHANIE STROM August 16, 2008 NYT

When the embezzlement of almost $1 million by the brother of the founder of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, better known as Acorn, surfaced last month, the organization announced that an anonymous supporter had agreed to make it whole.That supporter was Drummond Pike, the founder and chief executive of the Tides Foundation (T H Kerry's benefactor), which channels money to what it describes as progressive nonprofits, including some Acorn charitable affiliates.Mr. Pike is a friend of Wade Rathke, the founder of Acorn and its leader until the scandal broke, and he agreed to buy the promissory note that required the Rathke family to repay Acorn the money that Mr. Rathke's brother, Dale, had stolen.Mr. Rathke is a member of the board of the Tides Foundation and other Tides-related organizations. Since 2000, the Tides Foundation has provided more than $400 million to nonprofit groups, with much of that money flowing out of donor-controlled accounts it manages in the same way that the Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund or a community foundation does
.
John A. Powell, board chairman of the Tides Network, the umbrella organization for various Tides affiliates, wrote in an e-mail message to The Times that Tides had no involvement in the matter and that none of its money was used to buy the Rathke family's debt to Acorn.He said Mr. Rathke was on a leave of absence from all Tides boards.In 2000, Acorn discovered that Dale Rathke had embezzled $948,507.50 from it and affiliated charitable organizations. The management committee that controlled the organization decided not to alert law enforcement officials, and negotiated an agreement with the Rathke family to repay the money.That agreement was carried on the books of an affiliate, Citizens Consulting Inc., as a loan to an officer.

Sometime in June, Mr. Pike bought the loan from the affiliate, according to e-mail messages between senior executives at Acorn that were provided to a reporter by Acorn employees, who requested anonymity because they feared losing their jobs.Mr. Pike refused to confirm or deny that he had bought the note. "As a rule, I do not comment on my personal finances," he wrote in e-mail messages in answer to questions about the deal.But e-mail messages among Acorn's senior executives discuss how to keep Mr. Pike's identity secret, even as they acknowledge that some of the foundations and philanthropic advisers that have supported Acorn and its affiliates know that he bought the note."Does Drummond know the word is out?" Steven Kest, the executive director of Acorn, wrote on July 4. "If not, shouldn't someone tell him?"In a July 12 e-mail message to Mr. Kest, Acorn's political director, Zach Pollett, wrote: "I talked to Drummond on this yesterday and had Beth Kingsley" — Acorn's lawyer — "prepare a 'keep your yaps shut' confidentiality memo to people at Acorn and CCI."Charles D. Jackson, a spokesman for Acorn, said the organization would not comment on the purchaser of the note.

Acorn's board members and senior executives have signed confidentiality pledges that forbid them from disclosing Mr. Pike's identity or discussing the purchase agreement, according to three Acorn contributors who asked to see the agreement but were told they would have to similarly pledge confidentiality. They declined.But a handful of executives at foundations that have contributed to Acorn and Tides have learned through connections at those organizations that Mr. Pike was the buyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

From The Real Acorn Blog:

Wednesday, July 9, 2008
As I said-Wade is no longer Chief Organizer
Well you saw it here first. Now Wade has stepped down: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/us/09embezzle.html

So here is the deal as I have pinted our for some time:

1) Wade Rathke's brother ran the money (that would be Dale)
2) His wife runs the Louisiana office.
3) He has surrounded himself with his best friends
4) He created a compliant and in many ways ignorant board thatg would do whatever he said (How long has Maude been Chair)?
5) As reported in the New York times Wade's brother Dale used the for profit entity they set up to steal a million dollars.
6)Maude and the girls have given Wade a golden Parachute and allowed him to resign as Chief Organizer and promoted him to Chief Organizer of ACORN International! He is now Chief Organizer of the world?
7) Not on my watch pal!!!!!!!

Let us be clear, I don't hate ACORN, and I am not some right winger. I am former ACORN organizer.

What I care about is the milions of dollars I have personally watched get wasted, mispent, misdirected, and that were supposed to be for the social justice movement.

What I care about is field organizers who aren't paid shit, who rsk their lives, so that Wade, his wife, his brother, John Kest, Helene O'brien, and the rest of the crew can bleed this movement dry. Jetting around the world and selling out communities instead of focusing on community organizing.

Wade Rathke is a wealthy white boy who surrounded himself with wealthy white boys who is trying to stay wealthy while trying to look like some Mother Theresa.

The only way a person of color could rise to the top was for Wade to step down.

Berth Lewis we wish you luck!!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

Well, here it comes. McCain implies that on Tuesday his new, "fiercer" ads will be out. No more Mr. Nice Guy, I guess. Right.

Let's Hope This Backfires

As they say, there are three important things to do in a political race:

$1, Look at the Record
#2, Look at the Record
#3, Look at the Record

The 'funny' thing is that McCain is extremely vulnerable to exposure- wonder if the Democrats will use it? The temptation is there, I'm sure, but mud-slinging on both sides makes everybody dirty - and everybody will feel even worse.

As for the stuff that some of you guys have been posting, some of it quite possibly is rrue - how many of you have no skeletons rattling in your closet? hmmmmm? - but most of it is right wing guilt by association and I'm not going to dignify it by recognition.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:44 PM

The Republicans have worse than ACORN and Code Pink working on their campaigns. AirBus Lobbiests, Georgia lobbiests, bank deregulators.

McCain wants to talk about associations and judgement?

The Obama Campaign has way more ammunition.

How about the associations with Keating, Abramoff, Cheney and George W. Bush?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

There's a lot of ammunition to use against Obama. In spite of the fact that he has little official experience, he has a really sleazy background. The way things are going, McCain might as well use it. It doesn't look to me like he's got anything much to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM

As far as I can see, Obama's background is pretty typical of Chicago. Which is pretty typical of US politics. At least Obama is constantly contradicting himself and promising to vote agianst bills he helped to author. The economic crisis has shown the real John McCain.

On Olbermann Friday night there were four examples on video tape of McCain saying he was weak on economic matters. As a McCain supporter, do you want to see those played in the battleground states as a response to the assertion that Obama is unprepared?

I also see three things about McCain's current campaign and ten more about the Republican party for every bit about Obama. Bring it on! McCain has nothing to lose but this election. The Republicans down ticket can lose their ability to Filibuster in the Senate. The house can be a blood bath and the Republicans down ticket can lose positions all over the country from Governor to County Clerk if McCain goes all negative.

Bring it on!!

Bring..... it ...... on.....

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:00 PM

Its started already Yawn....

Bill Ayers and calling Obama a liar.

Is that the best they have?

Bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:58 AM

There is one person who's been consistent on reform issues and that has been John McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

The Real ACORN: Anti-Employee, Anti-Union, Big-Business

In the 18 months since the Employment Policies Institute's May 2003 report exposed the hypocrisy of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), this group has continued its pattern of outrageous activities. As the 2004 presidential election season moved into full swing, ACORN (and their subsidiary Project Vote) has been implicated in several voter fraud cases in states across the nation.
  ACORN's most serious violations have occurred in Florida, where an ACORN-operated political action committee, Floridians for All, is actively supporting a ballot initiative to raise the state minimum wage to $6.15 an hour (a higher wage than many ACORN employees receive). In St. Petersburg, ACORN submitted a false voter registration card for Charles Schuh. Schuh, a 68-year-old former Democratic mayor and city council member, was registered as a 30-year-old female Republican. While one may be tempted to write this off as simple sloppiness (a plausible thought, considering this is the same organization that failed to turn in thousands of voter registration cards on time, resulting in voters being denied the opportunity to participate in the primary), this is clearly another case of voter fraud. When Schuh asked to see his supposed registration card, he found that someone had signed his name but it "was certainly not [his] signature." In addition, Schuh noticed his social security number had been altered.
  Recent statements by former ACORN Miami-Dade field director Mac Stuart reveal that Schuh's case is actually part of a larger organized effort to rig the outcome of Florida's presidential election and minimum wage ballot initiative. Stuart claims that "there was a lot of fraud committed" at ACORN, including quality-control workers routinely removing registration cards for Republican voters. Stuart said that ACORN submitted thousands of invalid registration cards and failed to turn in boxes of registration cards for Republican voters. Stuart claims that "the voter registration project has been operating illegally since it started." 2 In order to meet the quota for voter registration cards established by ACORN, Stuart and other Miami employees targeted Florida felons by setting up voter registration booths outside of the Miami police department and Dade County jail. These activities are all motivated by ACORN's practice of paying for each voter registration card collected—a third degree felony under Florida law.
  ACORN's fraudulent activities were not limited to voter registration cards. ACORN employees routinely accepted signatures for the minimum wage ballot initiative from individuals who were not currently registered to vote—a requirement under Florida law. ACORN employees also backdated registration cards in order to gather these signatures. Statements from former employees reveal that few ACORN directors actually conducted a rigorous fraud check on the signatures gathered by their employees. Those who did found significant numbers of blatantly doctored signatures.
  This pattern of voter registration fraud in Florida should come as no surprise to anyone with a cursory knowledge of ACORN's actions around the country:
• In November 2003, election board officials in St. Louis, MO, finished their review of ACORN gathered election registration cards. ACORN submitted 5,379 cards in this city, of which only2,013 appeared to be valid. Of these, at least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.
• In August 2004, election officials in Albuquerque, NM, discovered that an ACORN employee, Christina Gonzales, registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. This registration was only discovered by the boy's mother when a voter card showed up in the mail. The card contained an incorrect social security number, a fabricated birthday, and only a partially correct address. ACORN's actions led New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson to state that they were "manufacturing voters" throughout New Mexico. Interestingly, while Gonzales was fired by ACORN, it was not for manufacturing voters, but rather for claiming credit for registration cards submitted by other employees.
• In Ohio, ACORN has been accused of several acts of voter fraud. In June, 74-year-old Arthur Creasap had a voter registration card submitted with a false birth date and a misspelled name. Franklin County Board of Election Supervisors Director Matthew Damschroder said the "blatantly false" forms were turned in by ACORN and Project Vote. In June, ACORN was forced to fire two employees after it was discovered that they turned in registration forms that were duplicates and contained false information. In Cuyahoga County, OH, ACORN submitted registration cards that had the highest percentage of errors, 15%. Most egregiously, an ACORN employee in Columbus has been indicted for forging signatures and falsifying voter registration cards.
• During a traffic stop in Minnesota, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the car trunk of 19-year-old Joshua Reed, a former ACORN employee.6 The cards were weeks and even months old, despite the fact that the law requires they be submitted to the secretary of state within 10 days of being filled out and signed.
• In Pennsylvania, Reading's Director of Elections received numerous calls from individuals registered by ACORN complaining that those taking down the voter information deliberately put inaccurate information on the form.
• Kym Cason admitted to registering three of her friends to vote 40 times to help her boyfriend, whom ACORN paid $2 for each voter he signed up. Cason admitted to forging signatures and filling out her friend's information to the best of her knowledge.
• In 1998, a single mother of three in Arkansas was arrested for falsifying approximately 400 voter registration cards. Some of the addresses listed on these applications were traced to vacant lots, boarded-up buildings, abandoned buildings, and nonexistent house numbers. The woman was a contractor of Project Vote, a subsidiary of ACORN. (Project Vote was involved in the scandal that brought down Ron Carey, former president of the Teamsters. In 1996, Carey arranged for a $175,000 contribution to Project Vote in exchange for reciprocal contributions to his campaign for presidency of the Teamsters.)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM

It is almost laughable. In 1070, Barack Obama was 9 years old. And the "terrorist" now works on charity boards.

Who is Sleazy now? Not to say, Desperate

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

Oooooo, that man is old. Make that 1970.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Alice
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Even long time Republicans are speaking out against the lies McCain is telling.

From Watertown, NY, a quote in part:
"McCain running a campaign of lies and fear
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 2008

As a former New York State Republican Committee member I am extremely disappointed and embarrassed by the campaign of lies, deceptions and fear being foisted on the American people by the Republican candidate for president, John McCain. The country became used to this kind of deceitful tactic during the campaigns of the current administration, but I had hoped for better from a man who promoted himself as being a maverick and honest and straightforward. Now we are getting more of the same from a man I had always considered to be an honorable American.

Lies about his opponent's tax plan, lies about his opponent's legislative record and lies about his own running mate have been documented by many major and respected news organizations around the country. Even the Web site factcheck.org has documented lies and misrepresentations by the McCain campaign that referenced factcheck.org itself.

Just look at the issue of the McCain campaign's attacks on his opponent's legislative record. The facts are these: In four years in the U.S. Senate, Sen. Obama's name was attached to three pieces of major legislation that became law. In Sen. McCain's 26 years in the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, his name appears on just six pieces of legislation that became law. You do the math." Dorothy M. Hilts

Brantingham


Read the rest of the opinion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

"Bring..... it ...... on....."


                         Yes, they might as well. It matters little if the Democrats with a larger majority in Congress with the puppet of their chosing in the White House.

                           The only hope the American people have at this point is for McCain to win. That would nullify some of the damage that can done from a Democratic Congress. If they have a president with no demonstarted ability to think things through, to rubber-stamp everything, the country's days could be numbered in months rather than years.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM

Dream on, ya cruddy whelp.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

"the country's days could be numbered in months rather than years. "

Don't be silly, Rig. ;-) The country will still be around long after we have all mouldered into dust.

I'm curious, though..you say you think that the only thing that can save the country is to avoid a Democratic majority in Congress?

Well, if you do think that, then why were you originally hoping for Hillary Clinton to win the presidency?

I'm not asking that to be cute or anything, I just can't figure what your line of reasoning is.

Look, the USA as a nation is fully capable of surviving either the Democrats OR the Republicans! ;-) Why do I say that? Well, it has survived both of them numerous times in the past...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM

I find it poignant that Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi, Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" had this to say on June 11, 2008:

There are elections in America now. Along came a black citizen of Kenyan African origins, a Muslim, who had studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia. His name is Obama. All the people in the Arab and Islamic world and in Africa applauded this man. They welcomed him and prayed for him and for his success, and they may have even been involved in legitimate contribution campaigns to enable him to win the American presidency.

But we were taken by surprise when our African Kenyan brother, who is an American national, made statements that shocked all his supporters in the Arab world, in Africa, and in the Islamic world. We hope that this is merely an elections "clearance sale," as they say in Egypt – in other words, merely an elections lie. As you know, this is the farce of elections – a person lies and lies to people, just so that they will vote for him, and afterwards, when they say to him: :"You promised this and that," he says: "No, this was just elections propaganda." This is the farce of democracy for you. He says: "This was propaganda, and you thought I was being serious. I was fooling you to get your votes."

Allah willing, it will turn out that this was merely elections propaganda. Obama said he would turn Jerusalem into the eternal capital of the Israelis. This indicates that our brother Obama is ignorant of international politics, and is not familiar with the Middle East conflict.

We still hope that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:11 AM

Yes, well, everybody has hopes, don't they, Sawzaw?

You can also find a quote from someone somewhere to fit ANY proposition, no matter what it is. Just look around some. You'll find it. You can find quotes that indicate, for instance, that Americans in the USA planned and executed the 911 attacks so that it could be used as a pretext for wars in the Middle East.

You can also find quotes about how the CIA moves billions of dollars worth of illegal drugs from abroad into the USA every year to raise money to fund fortress Amerika, and those drugs get peddled on your own main street and ruin the lives of young Americans.

Have a look. You'll find those quotes. Lots of them.

But why do I think you wouldn't bother looking for such quotes in the first place? ;-) Because it probably wouldn't suit your desire, that's why.

We only look for the dirt that suits our desire, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

"Well, if you do think that, then why were you originally hoping for Hillary Clinton to win the presidency?"


                I don't think you would have a problem with a Democratic Congress and an experienced president in office. The problem comes when you have a Democratic Congress and an "empty suit" in the presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

Yes, I guess we should all accept Muammar Gaddafi as the foremost expert on Obama's personal history, discard all of the known evidence to the contrary and believe everything he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:31 PM

"...discard all of the known evidence to the contrary and believe everything he says."


                         There is no evidence to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

I follow your reasoning about the Democratic congress and the empty suit, Rig...

But why is it that you distrust an entire collective Democratic congress any less than you do a single "experienced" chief executive? That's the part I don't get.

Experience in itself is no guarantee of either good intentions or good results. Al Capone, for example, was VERY experienced.

As for there being "no evidence" of any positive sort about Obama...well...you can never find something positive if you don't expend one watt of personal energy looking for it, can you? ;-)

The last thing in the world I think you would ever look for is:

a) anything good about Obama
b) anything good about religion
c) any chance that you might ever be wrong in any of your basic assumptions about anything

People simply DON'T look for stuff that doesn't support their favorite chosen viewpoints. Haven't you noticed that? Accordingly, they never find it. Accordingly, they see that all the "evidence" out there is on their side! This confirms for them what they always believed as a matter of faith: that they are right, dead right, and always will be and those who disagree with them are wrong, dead wrong, and always will be! ;-)

As your punishment, I suggest that you should reincarnate someday AS an American presidential candidate and have people like yourself out there attacking you on a daily basis and belittling your every personal characteristic. You will then discover just how unfair life can be in a political world.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

LH - It isn't that I don't trust Congress, but the Constitution was written to provide checks and balances in the legislative process. If you have an administration as far to the left as Barack Obama seems to be, and you have a Democratic Congress that can simply rubber-stamp anything the administration wants, I think you have a potential disaster.

                   In America, we are still living with the damage that was done by LBJ. The change in the immigration laws in 1965 is probably the most egregious.

                     I don't dislike Barack Obama. I just don't want to see him as president. I don't think he's qualified, and I think he'd get carried away trying to build a shrine to himself just like LBJ did.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM

Good heavens. What kind of shrine did LBJ build?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

It was the Shrine of the Enormous Ears that LBJ built, wasn't it? ;-)

Rig, you think Obama is too far left??? Huh? In what respect?

Hell, I don't think you even have any genuine leftists among the Democrats or Republicans...except maybe Dennis Kucinich to some extent. I don't think American society has ever gotten close enough to "the left" to even recognize it. The Republicans are a rightist party that make no apologies for it. They serve big business and big banks. The Democrats are a rightist party that pretends not to be (which is why they have such a tough time selling themselves). They also serve big business and big banks. They BOTH serve their major sources of cash, Rig, and those sources are virtually indentical.

Obama will do what the $ySStem wants him to if he gets elected...or he won't live too long (in my opinion). That's how it works. You do what they want and you get to playact "commander-in-chief" for 4 to 8 years. If you're enough of a fool then you can fool yourself into really believing that you are commander-in-chief while you're there.

Well, the truth about that is sure to set in the day after you're no longer there! Every president is expendable...but the $ySStem sees itself as immortal and it would NEVER be so foolish as to give you ordinary citizens a real chance to vote it in or out of office.

The $ySStem is larger than any of its organs or its members. It is greater than the sum of its parts. It is beyond public control. It is a law unto itself. Every president is a front man, a figurehead for the $ySStem, and he's strictly temporary. He's a marketing device to get you to rubber stamp the $ySStem when you walk into the voting booth. You sign away your freedom for another 4 years the moment you cast your vote.

Same deal in Canada, by the way... (in case you wondered)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM

"Nobody hates their own country."

Rev Wright:

"God Bless America? No, No, No, Not God bless America, God damn America."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:22 AM

I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions.

~~And~~

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government. And I won't be buried under their damn flag. I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."

--Joe Vogler, founder of the Alaskan Independence Party of which Todd Palin was a member for some number of years, and of which the Party itself maintains Sarah Palin was a member as well.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_alaska_independence_party.php

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:35 AM

The videos in the link in my last post don't seem to be any good any more. Here's another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmt0rLtgmK0

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:04 AM

"And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense."

At Bill Ayers home in 1995, Illinois State Sen. Alice Palmer, who planned to run for Congress, introduced Obama to some of her long-time supporters as her chosen successor. According to the New York Times story, it was one of several neighborhood events held that year on Obama's behalf, and it was not the first. Obama campaign officials also note the event at Ayers' home was not a fundraiser. And they claim that Obama did not know Ayers' history with the Weather Underground at that time. They did not say when Obama found that out.

Shouldn't such an educated man, a lawyer, have known about Ayers and the Weather Underground and avoided contact?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

couldna, shouldna- Might John McCain have known about Keating's wrongdoings before he embroiled himself in the scandal? Oh, my apologies- you're saying that Obama is brighter than McCain? *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:10 AM

"hatred for the American government"

Not hate America.


I sort of hate the government too. It is not doing it's job.

Not Congress, not the current administration, not the previous administration.

Sooner or later it will lead to anarchy or a dictatorship unless the lobbying, pork and partisan politics stop.

Obama or McCain will not stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM

"I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

Oct 6, 2008 10:26 | Updated Oct 7, 2008 8:43
Ex-generals cry foul over pro-Obama video
By MATT ZALEN AND SHANI ROSENFELDER


A Jewish American group and an Israeli film company blamed each other on Monday regarding claims they had misled a number of retired IDF generals and top Mossad officials who were filmed in a video endorsing Democrat presidential candidate Barack Obama.

The Jewish Council for Education & Research (JCER), a non-profit organization that supports Obama's presidential run, distributed the clip online on Sunday.

Former head of the Mossad Ephraim Halevy and former IDF deputy chief of staff Maj.-Gen. Uzi Dayan accused the group of taking their words out of context, saying that when filmed they had been told that the issue at hand was the challenges facing the next man in the White House, and not that the film was aimed at endorsing Obama for president.

"It's not only misleading, it was an interview about what the next president was going to have to deal with," Dayan told The Jerusalem Post, "and to know that they used this interview and took [only] five seconds [of it], and put me in a list of people praising Barack Obama...

"It wasn't about the campaign, it was about the political and security issues of the Middle East that the next president should be involved in," he continued.

"Nothing was said about Obama or [Republican presidential candidate John] McCain."


"I don't want other people to interfere in our elections, and I must not interfere with the elections in the United States," he said, adding that to do so would be neither "ethical nor smart."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

"I've got no use for" <> God Damn America or hate America.

"Keating's wrongdoings before he embroiled himself in the scandal?"

Was Keating involved in bombings? Wanted by the FBI? A fugutive? A member of a terrorist group.

McCain is well intentioned but not so smart and I do not support him. He was stupid to be part of the Keating 5.

Obama is smarter so he claims. Why didn't he know?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:38 PM

Sawzaw, what is America?

And what is it in a person's mind when he says "I hate America"?

Is it the government? Probably. Is it something about the social order? Quite possibly. Is it the area of land and the actual people who live on it? Almost certainly not.

You lift a fragment out of a sentence that Reverend Wright once spoke when he was raving away in a moment of passion and you interpret it according to your own political desires to mean, I think, that he hates the land and the people.

I very much doubt that the land and the people were what he had in his mind when he made the statement.

I very much doubt that the land and the people were what Sarah Palin's husband had in his mind when he made a similar statement.

No, I think they were probably upset about many of the same governmental and social forces and powers that upset you and me.

Therefore you are misinterpreting the statement to suit your own desired agenda which is to take that statement and attack it in some way to Barack Obama...and that's just silly, because it wasn't his statement.

If I go to a church, sawzaw, I do not bear personal responsibility for every single word my pastor said when he got carried away in some sermon that he made. Good lord! If that sort of guilt by association had any merit, then we could all be condemned on the basis of something somebody else said.

Again, I ask you, what is America? America is many, many things. It's a government, an economy, a military, 2 huge political parties, a bunch of social customs and traditions, many cultural and racial groups, many geographical regions, a historical record, many religions, mass media, etc......... There is no way of knowing for sure exactly what was in Wright's mind when he made the statement, no way of knowing what aspect of America upsets him so, but it's most probable that he was complaining about something quite different in America from what you leap to imagine when you consider that statement he made.

You consider it an attack upon the nation itself. Wright probably considered it an impassioned defence of the nation he loves.

He wants to see a different America. You probably do too. He wants justice. So do you. He wants equality. So do you. He wants an end to poverty and discrimination. So do you.

So do all of us.

Your interpretation of Wright's statement is entirely to your own political convenience, and it misses the point.

Likewise, a liberal's interpretation of Sarah Palin's husband's statement is entirely to their political convenience too.

See how it works? Nothing but opportunistic mudslinging in either case, in an attempt to establish guilt by association.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

"It was the Shrine of the Enormous Ears that LBJ built, wasn't it? ;-)"


                     Not only that, but he picked his beagles up by their ears. How's that for cruel and unusual punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM

Oct 7, 2:25 PM EDT


Ill. governor: Convicted pal Rezko must tell truth

CHICAGO (AP) -- Governor Rod Blagojevich is calling on Tony Rezko to tell the truth, the day after federal prosecutors indicated that the convicted fundraiser might be cooperating with them.

Appearing at a ceremony Tuesday, Blagojevich wouldn't say whether he was worried about his future now that his friend and fundraiser may be talking to authorities.

Blagojevich hasn't been charged with any wrongdoing and insists he does things the right way.

Rezko, also a past fundraiser for Sen. Barack Obama, was convicted of scheming to use his clout with the Blagojevich administration to squeeze kickbacks out of companies. Prosecutors are hinting he is cooperating by moving Monday to delay his sentencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM

The end of Obama is in sight!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

That's only because he ha sleft ou in the dust, pal. I think he's doing fine.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

Oh...if ONLY the end of the Democrats and Republicans could be in sight. If ONLY! I wish them the same fate as I wish all political scoundrels...a despised place in the future history books which will one day discuss our era with the benefit of hindsight.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

Well, I hope they hurry on their way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

"The end of Obama is in sight!" Rig

It may behoove you to kiss it, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

Hee, hee! The question is, which end?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM

The "God damn America" in that quote wasn't an expression of hating America. Wright has said himself he doesn't hate America. He was talking about the punishment that he felt God might have in mind for America because of the things it was doing to people. Wright felt that America was setting itself up for punishment, and he said so, but he had no desire to not be a part of this country.

Joe Vogler, on the other hand, hated America so much that he wanted his state, Alaska, to not be a part of it any longer. And Palin's husband, and possibly Palin herself, belonged to the organization that was calling for Alaska to secede from the US.

Wright wanted to fix what was wrong with this country. Vogler and, it would appear (for a while, anyway), Todd and Sarah Palin wanted to break the country apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

LEt me add that reciting that quote from Wright without its context completely reverses its meaning, and thus degrades the quote. When it is done intentionally, as by Sawz here, it degrades the defamer even more. To twist the truth intentionally for personal benefit is hardly honorable, Sawz.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM

"To twist the truth intentionally for personal benefit is hardly honorable,..."


                      And Obama does it all the time!