BS: UK party conferences

Subject: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:02 AM

For once these promise to be interesting this year.
The Tories are fatally split over Brexit, and a leadership challenge is almost inevitable.
Labour are fatally split over Corbyn's leadership, and have to decide on accepting the full AS definition while dealing with all the current accusations of AS against Corbyn himself.
The Lib Dems alone will be as boring as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 12:30 PM

Mirror today,
"The leading Leaver (Boris) is expected to use the party's annual gathering in Birmingham to steal the limelight at fringe events packed with adoring Brexit-backing activists."

May still says, “I am in this for the long term.”

Meanwhile Labour Jewish MPs seek bodyguards at their conference, as BBC's Laura Kuenssberg did last year, and Momentum want a motion calling for a second referendum on Brexit which the leadership do not want.

Its going to be good.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM

We know what this is intended to be about. Don't engage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:22 PM

Also.. the September Sumo Wrestling Tournament.. soon.. don't forget...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:35 PM

And the last night of the Proms...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:47 PM

Start threads about those things, but this is about the party conferences.
What is your worry? You can just ridicule the Tory conference if you like.
I intend to have a good laugh at both.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:49 PM

.. just don't anyone ridicule the Sumo...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:50 PM

Even the Lib Dems.
They are hoping to change their rules so a non-MP can be leader.
Otherwise the Field is rather small!

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM

Composite 3. Subsection A....
I move!

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 02:02 PM

anyone know if there are any motions for debate tabled by tory mps who are furious about the party's racist policy on windrush?

how furious are decent tory mps (yes, i know that is an oxymoron) about the lack of an ethical arms policy and this country's support for a brutal saudi regime that sponsors international terrorism?

all this anti-semite garbage re jeremy corbyn started off as a diversion to the above. to the delight (and possible amazement) of the tories and their friends in the labour party they found it was actually a smear that lasted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:36 PM

Some of the Windrush victims were expelled under Labour.
I doubt the issue will be raised in any conference.

Labour governments had foreign and armaments policies identical to Tory governments too.

all this anti-semite garbage re jeremy corbyn started off as a diversion to the above.

No. It all came entirely from within the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:43 PM

You're a hero, Pete. And, as I'm not talking to dishonest Keith, would you care to ask him whether Jonathan Sacks or any of the Board of Deputies or Netanyahu are members of the Labour Party? Last time I checked...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:46 PM

They took up the issue Steve, but it originated entirely from within the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:59 PM

ok.. which party leader is the shittest dancer...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:03 PM

May has more chance of winning that than holding on to her job!

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:07 PM

i would have thought it was pretty obvious that some jewish people and organisations support the labour party while others oppose it.
what has been less predictable is how many labour mps oppose the party and its leadership.
there has always been a majority within the labour party who support the idea of an ethical arms policy, are anti-nuclear arms and respect international efforts for equality and peace. we are more vocal and successful at different times. as jeremy corbyn has always been at the forefront of this group, and is now party leader we expect this argument to be made more forcefully. the more we mean it, the more opposition from the establishment we should expect, as they see this way of thinking as challenging the status quo and their own privileged position within it.
supporters of the israeli government's illegal treatment of the palestinians are quite right to see the current labour leadership as a threat to their position. and so we get the repetitive and tiresome (attempts) again to discredit the party by throwing increasingly ludicrous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:11 PM

Spot on. And now we have the perennially barking mad Frank Field proving the case for us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:38 PM

Anyway, I'd pit Ed Balls against Theresa May in terpsichorean endeavours any day. Though I don't want to see either of them twerk unless they have at least twelve layers of clothes covering their respective arses...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:50 PM

Field is right to resign from the Labour party, though he has given the wrong reason. The right reason is that he is, and always has been, a closet tory. He was about to be deselected anyway because of his pitiful behaviour in voting against a Labour amendment on the brexit bill which would have preserved some of our trade and links with Europe. For this, he and the equally pitiful Kate Hoey, do not deserve membership of the Labour party. The alleged antisemitism is entirely a smokescreen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:31 PM

Very intolerant David Carter.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:35 PM

Come off it, Al. Field has been a compete arsehole for decades, revelling in his only talent, that of being a total Labour faux-maverick as often as he can manage it. Good riddance. And Hoey is a total arch-Tory if ever there was one. And she's a bit thick too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 09:19 PM

I've got to admit, I don't know much about him.
But I looked him up on wikipedia.
The point is , he's served the Labour Party a long time. He's held the line whilst the left wing of the party has pursued with its usual cocky attitude policies which were anathema to the general public and electoral poison.

As a person dependent, (totally dependent!) on the health service and the welfare state - the perennial problem of the Labour Party is the left wing's inability to grasp the importance of keeping the government out of the hands of the tories. They have far too much fun in opposition. What they really hate about Blair is that he made them confront the realities of wielding power in office.

If there is disquiet amongst the Jewish vote (and there appears to be). How about stop pooh pooh-ing, get the bloody wax out of your ears and LISTEN!

Instead of which, there is rudeness, defiance, aggression, ignorance and relentless stupidity. Jews know about being jews, and what constitutes anti semitism. Just like disabled people know about what constitutes discrimination against them.

Yeh, go on and lose another election and blame it on the media. You might fool yourself. But its bloody tough on the folks who need the welfare state.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 11:10 PM

Al - 'Jews' are not a homogenous mass all sharing the same voice and politics...

The serious problem here is right wing jews
pursuing a hostile vindictive vendetta against Corbyn
as an indivividual politician they despise,
and the Labour party as a political party they oppose.
These right wingers are blatantly resorting to obvious ruthless dirty tricks to prevent a Labour victory...

Such right wing Jews within the labour party might just as well be tories
for all the divisive undermining disruption they are causing...

How much they are following an Israeli Government instigated anti labour campaign
should be open to honest debate,
but is instead stifled and shut down by fear of knee jerk accusations of antisemetism...

The sad fall out is that ordinary moderate Jews are caught in the cross fire,
many responding to peer pressure as easily manipulated 'useful idiots', to join in with the anti labour propagandising
...

Even worse, this may all be back firing on our Jewish community,
stoking much more genuine antisemetism amongst the real racists in British society...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 11:42 PM

..but as this latest Keith thread is puportedly about UK party conferences.
and supposedly not yet another oportunist pretext of his to dwell and fester in the labour 'Jewish problem'...

it's wiser that we do not get caught in the same old trap of acting like Keith's useful idiots...

Suffice to say, this particular 'problem' is much too complex in it's origins and intentions,
and unusual temporarily convenient alliances between right wing Jews
and traditionally antisemitic tories...

Much too complex for simplistic easy conclusions and accusations...


But far reaching in potential long term real tensions and division it may exacerbate in wider society...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:02 AM

Al - it's late, I'm sleep deprived and tired.. this should have been one one post, not fragmented like this..

But as I mentioned previously, my mum is half Jewish..

She is 86 and has been a loyal Labour voter all her life since joining the Labour League of Youth.

She is appalled at what some of her father's people are recently doing to destroy the Labour Party...

Particularly those within the party who have apparently lost sight of why they are members,
and the founding priorities of gaining power to defend and improve the quality of life of ordinary less well off British folks...

This is my opinion now [not my mum's]

There seems to be a proxy war being faught on British soil between the Israeli Government
versus pro Palestinian supporters...
Neither side seems to care about the collateral damage to the Labour Party,
or long term welfare of ordinary labour voters, their families, and wider community,
that a Labour victory would hopefully benefit...

A bunch of zealot bastards on both sides of this distracting divisive conflict...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:04 AM

What they really hate about Blair is that he made them confront the realities of wielding power in office

Oh, come on, Al. You have, at a stroke, just wiped out a proud record of Labour leadership, including Attlee who presided when that very NHS that you rely on was introduced. What most Labour supporters hate about Blair was his mismanagement of the Gulf crisis and swinging too far to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:07 AM

Well obviously the Jewish vote has been leftist most of the 20th century from the days of Mosley to the plays and new world socialism view of playwrights like Wesker and Jack Rosenthal.

So what's this crap about the Jewish vote not being a homogenous group. The working class Jewish vote has always been an identifiable strain in the electorate. One with a proud tradition.

And at the moment they feel discomfitted. Don't blame it on right wing Jews. Blame it on a guy who has not declared the declared aim of various groups, namely the destruction of the state of Israel, to be utterly shameful.

There was time - within living memory - when every single state bordering Israel declared Israel's destruction as the desired aim. They peppered that part of Africa and the Med with posters showing a big foot kicking Israel out into the sea.

None of the bloody pusssyfooting around like there has been about Brexit. These are vital issues. The bearded bastard needs to speak up loud Loud and memorable. Get a better speech writer. So that people are in no doubt...because the phrases ring in your mind beyond the smear of any snotty Daily Mail hack. From the time of Abraham Lincoln - that's been the job of a good politician.

Frank Field should be wake up call. And not before bloody time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:16 AM

Dave, you may find this hard to believe - but poor people were safer under Blair than any tory. Whatever his faults (and God knows he upset me over many issues) I could find it within me to forgive him because I knew while he was in power , my disabled wife would have her needs taken care of. And he had the knack of being re-elected. Once Brown managed to unseat him, we were in the shit.

tHe depredations begin the day tories take power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:32 AM

ABANDON HOPE, ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:58 AM

Al - you let your bitterness cloud your mind and your mood;
and your understanding of the present day state of Labour
and it's friends and foes seems a bit errmm.. unbalanced......

My wife's overwhelmingly increasing workload in a state school,
the attack on her working conditions,
and the tangible climate of fear/stress
began during Blair's reign..

My own experiences on benefits, and trying to acccess adult education
became significantly worse shortly adter he gained power..
It soon became stricter and more coercively authoritarian than even under the tories..

All he did from the start was try to convince global capitalists,
and habitual right wing voters he could out tory the tories...

Of course, at first we were too giddy with the euphoria of a Labour victory
to notice this pernicious negative shift in welfare and public sector working conditions...

Blair laid the groundwork for Cameron and his treachourous liberal lap dogs...
After a few years we cottoned on to that..

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:12 AM

Amen, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:26 AM

I've just confirmed this with the wife,
When we moved from London back to the west country 1999/2000
She started a new senior management job in a state primary.
We could go out for a pint and live music most evenings.

A couple of years later there was excitement that cash had been found to equip all school staff
with brand new laptops.
Wow what a great gift...!!!
Then reality dawned.. workload gradually increased as it became an expectation
that she would need to spend time at home using the laptop to catch up
on all the newly introduced beaurocratic pupil evaluations, etc..
Year by year this demand on her home time significantly increased..
Soon enough every week day evening was consumed by an hour or two,
or more of ever demanding homework on the laptop..

The tory/Lib pact was still not to happen for more than a few years..
This all happened and became accepted work practise under Blair.
The tories only capitalised on and set in stone what Blair had brought in so sneakily..

Now her homelife consists almost entirely of school related 'extra' work...
..and staff know they have to like it or lump it or face threat
of 'reapraisal' of their ability to do the job...
It's no secret older more expensive salaried employees are under constant scrutiny
for who can be replaced...

Blair's New Labour Govt started that ball rolling...
Frank Field's vision of a winning Labour Party would in all probability be an even worse nightmare...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:29 AM

"...but poor people were safer under Blair than any tory."

The gulf between rich and poor widened inexorably under Blair. His Middle East policies were at least in part responsible for inviting terrorism on to our streets. Any other ways he made the poor "safer?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:04 AM

Big Al, stop trying to defend Field by invoking the undoubted successes of the Blair government. Frank Field is no Tony Blair, and he was almost as much of a pain in the neck in Blair's day. Antisemitism is a red herring, the issue is Field's digusting support of the brexiteers in the tory party. And his conspiring to scupper a Labour amendment to limit he damage from brexit. He is a disgrace, he should resign, if he chooses to stand as an independent he can, but he should be exposed for the charlatan he really is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:07 AM

As Deputy Leader, To Watson must know more about all this than any of us.
he said, "This is a serious loss to the party and I deeply regret Frank's decision. It reflects both the deep divisions in the party and the sense of drift engulfing us. It is a major wake up call. We cannot afford to lose people of such weight and stature."

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:22 AM

BBC on why Field resigned,

"Veteran Labour MP Frank Field has quit the party's group in Parliament, saying the leadership is becoming "a force for anti-Semitism in British politics".
The Birkenhead MP also blamed a "culture of intolerance, nastiness and intimidation" in local parties."

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:24 AM

I am sure that the BBC are reporting accurately what Field is claiming to be his motives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:30 AM

no the real shitstorm for teachers started in thatch's regime.
the national curriculum, SAT tests, responsible for your own budget, the money following the market....ring any bells.....keith joseph? Sheila lawlor, tory think tanks....?

Blair was a public school wallah who understood nought of education, education, education, tory nastiness, and much else. Still he knew how to get elected.

There's a definite feeling of crisis, what crisis about you guys....enjoy the next 18 years of tory rule. That's what the last period of indifference to public disquiet, and 'we're left wing perfect people' cost us.

Good old Michael Foot. My Quaker, Green peace, CND parents loved him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM

Keith - if you want this thread to flourish, then try to respect your own commitment to 'balance'

"...this is about the party conferences.
What is your worry? You can just ridicule the Tory conference if you like.
I intend to have a good laugh at both."

please try to resist your usual urges...

The BBC is not a paragon of balance it pretends to be...

Field's resignation letter should not be considered a bible like scripture of unquestionable 'truth'..

Perhaps more like the spiteful exit words of an old man with limited shelf life
who can't get his own way with rivals...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:41 AM

Al - odd how my wife'e previously enjoyable rewarding career in schools
only started to sour and become severely stressful after Blair got in...

All the worse now thay are in the uncertain worrying process
of having academy transformation imposed on them...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:01 AM

Al - and where did you get this daft idea we are all cliched far lefties hell bent on perpetual oposition..

Against the odds, Corbyn surprised us all with his increasing popularlty
and possibilities of election if the tories f@cked up bad enough..

..that is until this conincidently well timed 'Jewish Problem' suddely popped up out of nowhere
to scupper Labour's positive advances towards next government...???

If Corbyn could have rode the popularity and won,
my interest would have been in who he would be mentoring as his younger less 'tainted' succesor...???

will we ever know now...????

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:19 AM

Field knew he had to go. His choice of how he did it was designed to do most damage to the party while trying to make it look like he was being honourable. He was doing no such thing and while most people can see through his cynical use of anti-semitism there will always be those who will either be fooled or pretend they have been for their own aganda.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:23 AM

Tom Watson is implacably opposed to Corbyn in every regard, and never misses an opportunity to smear him to just the right degree that allows him to hang on to the deputy leadership. If he put as much energy into dissing the Tories as he does into dissing Corbyn, in league with all those other disaffected Blairites and Brownites and the ragbag pro-Bibi bunch that includes the Board Of Deputies, a knackered old ex-Chief Rabbi who should stick to Thought For The Day and a bunch of conspiratorial Israeli right-wing politicians, Labour's chances at the next election would be hugely enhanced. Well they may be anyway, because the country showed last time out that they're impatient with all the personal attacks and would rather actually know what the bloody plans for governing the country are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:27 AM

My mum don't like the look of that Tom Watson....

The names Brutus and Judas come to mind...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:10 AM

For godsake - just ask yourself.....what possible profit could it be to Watson to attack Corbyn?

I worked eight years as s teacher in the inner ring of Brum from 1971. When Denise's condition forced me to abandon my teaching career and become a pro musician, I couldn't get much continuity going because rheumatoid arthritis sets the agenda.

Ao I started doing odd (mostly very odd) supply contracts. I saw inside dozens of schools.

The chaos was well under way by 1985.

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:35 AM

Al - my wife started in the profession 30 odd years ago,
But she honestly has only experienced real increasing decline and stress
in the quality of work culture since 2000...

..and she is one of the stronger of her colleagues who has so far weathered problems
without crumbling, taking extended sick leave for anxiety, or resigning...

The Head did target her for obvious constructive dismissal 5 or 6 years ago,
but she faught back with help from the union rep.

So the school shifted direction and targetted another weaker middle aged member of staff instead...

It is a constant climate of uncertainty and paranoia..

Just about every week she has interactions with members of staff literally crying tears under stress...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:37 AM

btw... "For godsake - just ask yourself.....what possible profit could it be to Watson to attack Corbyn?"

come on.. we know you are not that naive about politicans and their personal ambitions...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM

He's got you dancing to his obsessive tune again lads
Shame on you for giving this fanatic air time
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:49 AM

Jim - it's ok.. he seems to have scarpered - knock knock ginger like - from his own thread...

In the meantime, Al is presenting interesting stimulus for thought...

Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:10 AM

Wel I saw a Head of English terrorised by Chris Woodheads minions into losing the sight in one eye when his blood pressure went through the roof. That was about '89.

Maybe your wife didn't see ensuing chaos, but I bloody did. Entire stockrooms filled with sat tests and the revisions. Schools unable to afford to employ experienced teachers. Every school's budget having to buy from the government a loose leaf folder with fucking stupid demands on the National Curriculum - £18 a time. Junior schools had to buy ten folders for every teacher.Children who couldn't spell their own names required to study two foreign languages.

Mind you if she didn't notice that lot.....