Patriotism

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:15 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. ""

Curious, outside of being on the US of A team, what specifically leads you to this type of broad conclusion, versus the various ideas among the many different forms of democratic governments in the world? Is it based on a detailed analysis, with a specific criteria? I ask this because patriotism often leads to a variety of poorly reasoned beliefs/thoughts?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country""

Beyond patriotism associated with being on team USA, I am curious on what reasoning/criteria and comparisons (among world democratic governments) brought you to this belief/conclusion? Forming a free and democratic country was hardly a unique idea hatched in the USA a few hundred years ago?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:42 PM

Oops, double post-first one seemed notto take. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:59 PM

"I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism."

The distinction was made by George Orwell in his essay Notes on Nationalism in 1945 (reprinted in England Your England)

He summarises his arguement:

""Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:17 PM

Jingoism - the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

posted on a previous thread on patriotism. Settle in. It's fairly long.

=====

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (last I heard, Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:43 PM

M y Grandma used to sing a Boer war song

we do not want to fight
but by jingo if we do
we've got the might, we've got the men
we've got the money too

I've always suspected that that was the root of jingoism. it springs from a mistaken view that our way of doings is unquestionably the best. its only in retrospect we can see that the England of the 1890's was a stew of exploitation, hypocrisy and snobbery.

no doubt, theres a lot of things wrong with England now - still you like the things you like.

i like that if i am ill, i get help. i like the fact, i can go out with a guitar and entertain most people, most places, most nights of the week. i feel safe here, and the drains work.

if there is something wrong with the place. i must be part of what's wrong. if the IRA and Al Quaeda are right wanting to blow us up - then i am part of the reason.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:49 PM

In general, I think of patriotism as a virtue, as concern for the welfare of one's community and pride in the goodness found in that community. I think it's a good thing to appreciate purple mountains and amber waves and (generally) peaceful ethnic diversity as precious gifts, and to revere a flag as a symbol of those blessings. People like the "Tea Party Patriots" redefine the word into something obnoxious, but I think the basic meaning of "patriotism" is still a positive thing.

I see "jingoism" and "nationalism" as the evil counterparts of the virtue of patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

We don't mind the bear, but whilst we're British true
The Russians will not have Constantinople!

I forgot all about that song Al. A band I was in, we used to sing it. I think we learned it from Strawhead. It was a Crimea War song, not Boer, hence the words in the rest of the chorus.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM

I'm half wondering whether Gorbachev's analysis might not mean the entire thing's out of date. He postulates that the extremism nowadays is actually coming from the commercial world fighting amongst itself, for example the Russian oligarchs driving Putin and the US - well, it hardly needs saying. The position in the Muslim world's less clear, but it does look very much as though it's the Arab business circle driving the terrorist agenda too. Bin Laden is a major Saudi business, I had a near run-in this summer with one of the Al-Khalifas (Bahrein/Dubai) who's wanted for human rights abuse.
If so, will we end up in the Japanese position of corporate sell-out for simple survival?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:10 PM

Or we could follow Mrzzy and buy them all felines so they can emulate certain James Bond baddies. That way it could become catriotism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:11 PM

I am at a loss (pun intended since my cat just died, sigh) as far as your logic is concerned, where do I advocate multiple cat buying? Aren't too many cats a catastrophe? Or is that what you replace a missing cat with? Castriotism is when they take your balls and you're proud of it? Crastiotism is preferring to live north of the Wall?

The idea to which I refer was no divine right to rule. Gov of the people by the people (pity some of the people are such dicks). Great idea. Would work if everyone were nice like my dad.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM

My alleged greyhound has a catriotism policy but luckily is too lazy (and these days getting too slow) to put it into practice. The ginger Tom who sits outside the french windows preening himself in view of the poor bugger can carry on his taunting with impunity.

A friend sent me a birthday card with a cat pulling faces at a dog through a sliding glass door leading to a garden. The caption was the dog thinking "I'll give him another minute to see if he realises the door is open."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

There's two kinds of patriotism: the kind where it's Us and Our Place and Them, and Yeats's kind as he stood in London hearing the water of Inisfree flowing under the concrete: "I hear it in the deep heart's core".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:57 AM

""Gov of the people by the people""

Though the specific words may have a USA source, I suspect the idea/concept is hardly historically unique to the USA . However, words are cheap and the concept is complex to implement, in a pure form, by any government.

Patriotism fuels many myths, as citizens tend to look inward, rather than outward.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:58 AM

As Seamus Heaney said about Yeats....you just want to say, come off it mate!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM

Dick Gaughan wrote a song ripping the piss out of The USA idea of "by the people, for the people. "

By the people for the people
That was Lincoln's vow
But what the hell would Abraham Lincoln say
If he could see America now?

The first verse goes-

I heard a lot of talk about the land of the free
So I went to see it for myself
What I found was misery and poverty
In a land of incredible wealth.
They have a thing called a constitution
To defend their civil right
That's provided you have plenty of money
Are protestant, male and white.

Meanwhile, the mid term elections made great TV here. Lots of our comedy shows have been screening Republican elevtion adverts, so we could all laugh at how incredibly stupid American voters must ge. I particularly liked the woman who is now a senator who castrates pigs and can't wait to get to Washington. Oh, and the rednecks saying America was built on the bible and the gun.

Without exception, the only comment afterwards from any of our TV presenters has been "God bless America."

Not a good day for the nice people over there I know well, call friends and frankly, feel sorry for...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:27 AM

Someone said, probably a Frenchman, that "Patriotism is nothing more than the memory of good things we ate in childhood."

And the only way to counter catriotism is with dogmatism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM

""I love a dog. He does nothing for political reasons.""

Will Rogers

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:13 AM

Will Rogers clearly hasn't met my alleged greyhound then.

If he shits in the scrub grass rather than the farm track, he gets a gravybone. He has started laying a small shit, getting his treat then hobbling a few yards before evacuating half his bodyweight and looking up expectantly for his second gravybone.

Seems like every politician I have come across....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

""Did you hear about the visually impaired man who went bungee jumping? Scared the hell out of the dog.""

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:08 PM

In principle & for the long run, I am a wishywashy Wellsian one-worlder. For the time being, however, evidence compels me to the conclusion that nations are necessary evils, and that the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:34 PM

I am all for a planetary government of all the people for all the people.
It bugs me when I hear politicians talking about Americans having rights to, say, not be hungry, when that isn't Americans who (ought to) have those rights.

I am all for a lot of stuff.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:00 AM

So what if your 'patriotism' is being confused with fervently believing an ideological lie, hook line and sinker?...and then calling people 'haters'(of some sort), who don't buy into your delusion.....you know, sorta like 'so-called liberals conservatives' ....or like what is so often happening on here??

Stick to the music!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:53 AM

Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays.

I was registered with the Boy Scouts of America for thirty years. Patriotism is an important thing in the Scouts, and I generally felt very comfortable with the attitude toward patriotism in the Scouts. Toward the end, though (about 1990), I became disillusioned. The Scouts became more closely identified with religious and political conservatism, and I began to feel I didn't fit in anymore. The Girl Scouts didn't follow that path in the U.S. - but they still emphasize patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

We kick 'em out of scouts at 16 or so.... 😎

I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.

Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment....

Mind you, we too have those who get ideas from the same PR companies and the latest stupidity is an idea by ministers (won't happen) to have children saluting the flag each day at school. The thinking of our conservative idiots being that it is a solution to Islamic radicalisation.

Patriotism to a lump of geography or patriotism to a perceived lifestyle is still patriotism and still there to be exploited by the clever bastards Goofus and his redneck mates follow but don't understand.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:37 AM

I'm a little late to this thread, being only an occasional visitor these days, so I haven't read more than the first few posts. My apologies if this has already been said, especially if it's been better said than I'm about to attempt, but those first few posts provoke me to offer the following for consideration...

"I am proud of my country because..." That, to me is patriotism, and I see nothing wrong with that. We evolved as a social animal, small groups. Family, which doesn't have to mean blood relation, is what we're wired for. Tribe / clan / folk we can cope with - those we don't know but, given that we naturally label the world around us, those that we can label as "those that are generally like us", whatever the criteria for "like us" may be. Going beyond that is more difficult. In my experience, it's only a small minority of people that can rise above family & folk, and view the whole of humanity more or less without prejudice.

The thing about patriotism for me though, is that it has to be not only "I am proud of my country because...", but also "I am well aware of the shit things we've done as well". It isn't patriotism that is the problem; it's nationalism - "My country is BETTER than every else because..." THAT, I think, is when the sense of "we've done a lot of shit things too" is lost, history gets whitewashed and we can do whatever we want because we're obviously superior...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 08:40 AM

Interesting perspective Rardwulf.

I notice that some feel more patriotic about their heritage (and local culture) than their country. I often detect that this frequently reflects some bitterness for past negative events. However, I also see people whose ancesters were treated very poorly, but can rise above this and remain both proud of their heritage and their nation-while not diminishing the historic wrongs. Native peoples in North Ameria are an example (and, in some cases the wrongs are not entirely in the past).

I am often puzzled by people who hold grudges against other groups for events that occured hundred of years, or more, in the past, such as in the Middle Eas, where some groups seem more patriotic about their religion and "tribe", versus their nation, (whose boundaries were determined by outside forces).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

> the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Hard to dispute, but many will try.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

""To people all over the world, it means wealth....""

Who once said that economics is behind almost everything in life:)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:44 AM

allright we'll pretend we're like everyone else, but actually we're just being modest.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

Nationalism, which many in the power-mad set refer to as patriotism, is inherently uncivilized. The history of civilization is one of smaller groups combining with larger groups for the purpose of public safety. Tribe to village to city to region to state to country. Here is the US, the Constitution requires the states to behave in a civilized manner with each other. We can assume that if there wasn't a federal government to settle the differences, any given state would go to war with any other as soon as they couldn't resolve their differences themselves. But they end up with a ruling from Congress or the Supreme Court and they have to accept it, whether they like it or not.

Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war. Wouldn't it be nice if Israel and Palestine had to take their differences to the world court and then had to just accept the ruling that came down? Everyone could just get on with their lives even if they disagreed with the decision. People who take up arms because they disagree with a ruling would create a police situation instead of a war, mostly because the entire rest of the world would back the court's decision. It would be sort of like if the city of Detroit decided to declare war on Ann Arbor. They wouldn't get very far. They know that the United States army would land on them so fast and so hard that they don't even think about going to war with each other. They sue each other and accept the final verdict. Much less loss of life.

This would, of course, require that the United States and every other country give up their sovereignty. Until we find a way to do that we will be uncivilized.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:47 PM

I think, John P, even if we don't say it in quite the same way, yeah, we're very much on the same wavelength. And Ed & probably several others (if I read back through all the posts) are much the same.

I'm sure it's a quote from Mary Poppins, or something similar, but "Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be nice to each other?" ;-) Alas, I certainly don't always rise to such an aspiration!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM

Patriotism is the mistaken notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has higher meaning than membership of the human race and citizenship of Planet Earth.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

Where I said "when that isn't Americans who" above, I meant it isn't JUST Americans who. Sorry.

What michaelr said. That's why I'm all for immigrants being proud of their new nationality, but not anybody who was born anywhere being proud of where they were born.

Glad they were born there, yes. I am certainly lucky to have been born American.

Proud of what my *government* has done? If I were, I hope I'd be proud of the *people* -the ones IN that government, for doing something right.

We are so polarized (now that we are a big group thanks to the media imo) that it's hard to be proud of fellow Americans since half of them are apparently blatant idiots no matter which side of any issue you find yourself!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM

"Come off it, mate" sounds a little too London for Heaney. Did he say that of Yeats? When and where?

As for immigrants being "proud of their new nationality", oh, that's nothing to do with patriotism for me. Happy to live in their new country, yes, fine. But "proud of their new nationality" sounds suspiciously like people on their way to enrol in an army to kill others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

i'll look up it what SH said, about Yeats on a dvd i bought from the Irish national library.

but i'm halfway through another dvd. come off it mate was a condensation of what he said

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:29 PM

Proud to BE american, given that it was achieved rather than lucked into. Those of us born here can't be proud of it. Is what I meant. Mom would certainly not enrol in any armies despite being proud to have made it out the concentration camps, out from behind the iron curtain, over the ocean before planes were common, and through the red tape of immigration at Ellis Island. That is something to be proud of. My being popped out of her a few years later is not something *I* can claim as an achievement, so I can't be proud of it having happened here.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 12:42 AM

John P., the City of Detroit wouldn't get very far in a war against Ann Arbor, because in this day and age, Ann Arbor has more money.

But I like your idea of a world government that is able to settle disagreements by methods other than warfare. I wonder if it would work. I wonder why it wouldn't work....

-Joe, Detroit Native-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:16 AM

World court eh? What would that do to prevent large countries propping up one side in disputes between two others? I love the simple naivety going on here. Almost cute.

Lobbying and money in Washington, coupled with USA refusal to support UN is keeping the Israel / Palestine problem going.

That's the problem with world courts in any sense. The USA foreign policy is to listen to lobby and self interest whilst claiming to be international arbiters.

You took up the mantle from us. We used to be as bad and many lament our lack of influence even now. Strange old world.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

Joe Offer: "Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays."

Yes I agree!!...I think that when lies, misrepresentations and deceit, are employed by either 'religion' or politics, to achieve the personal goals, for those promoting it, then the subscribing peoples who belong to either group, become spiritually and morally malnourished, and then disillusioned.

We see that in every moment we live these days, and instead of CORRECTING those errors, we 'entrust' our confidence (a.k.a. 'faith'), into the very purveyors of the deceptions, and in our 'pride', we promote fears of 'what if', instead of self examination, admitting that our 'egos' have been misplaced, and making the necessary personal adjustments.
Are we so 'taken in' by our own pride(s) and vanities, that we have rendered ourselves 'too stupid' to find a way to bridge the differences, and find the common ground???...That we, after all, are living organisms, living together, on a ball in space, trying to survive. It is NOT necessary to manipulate each other, either privately, or corporately, on this ball, spinning in space, for the benefit of an elite, primarily, while excluding others, and not hurt the whole, of which we all are a part...but then at that point, the proselytizing of that very truth, would then fall into the category, of 'religion'.....the only thing wrong, is that many 'religions' have turned into 'the blind leading the blind' with 'peace and love at ten dollars a pair...and as in the political world, they too 'sell you a fear'...and then promote themselves as being the 'only remedy'....

That being said, I don't think that people who 'water down the truth', for whatever reason, be it in 'religion' or politics, should be given much credibility....and we are NOT THAT stupid, as not to be able to come to terms with ourselves, and the community we share existence with...on this ball, spinning in space....

The unspoken '800 pound gorilla in the room' is that in the political world, there is a notion that THEY are the ones to reign supreme, and they must 'eradicate' any influence(s), that 'religion' may have to offer....notwithstanding that we have our sense of justice and mercy, from living in a culture, whose basis is rooted in fairness, whose principles were bannered, in those...but the 'source' is now our enemy?????????

As you previously have pointed out, LOVE, IS the mindset, to ANY higher understanding...and along with that, the politicos exploit patriotism, and couple it to their agendas...while 'religions', hide behind 'Love'....and hide what it is and can do.
Politics may TRY and promote fairness....but NOBODY can legislate LOVE......but they can 'pretend'......

John P: "Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war."

See?? ..." ..force the compliance of all nations.."

OK, you want to 'force compliance'???.....the people to whom you do that to will cry, "Rape"...and accuse each other of abuse.....just take a look around!

Lighter: "... the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom"...

One might examine, 'How we measure 'wealth''...because if it is measured solely with materialism, pursuing it might just cost one their freedom....as an individual, a culture..a society..a nation...
"In America, people have confused the 'pursuit of happiness' with the 'pursuit of material gain'.
(I am not refuting your post)

Musket: "I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.
Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment...."


Self explanatory....

Musket, Have you considered seeking professional help?? Not EVERYTHING is considered through the prism of 'talking points'....

Have a Great Day All!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:11 PM

Joe Offer: "-Joe, Detroit Native-"

Oh, NOW I get it......My condolences!
(Wink while grinning)

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:47 PM

Patriotism surely only applies to contries who have a fatherland. However, the US, being based around Columbia, is surely a Motherland, and so should not have a concept of Patriotism, but Maternalism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:17 PM

matriotism....?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:58 PM

Yeah, can you be a matriot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:01 AM

(didn't mean to click submit) a filiot? An avunculot? That last one sounds, somehow, lewd and child molesty.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:38 AM

A strutalot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:22 PM

Well, judging from the posts, it looks like people don't really know what 'patriotism' is. You'd think from their posts that they confuse 'patriotism' with holding the 'party line'.....even when they are NOT 'patriotic'.....

...sorta like the difference between a 'statesman' and a 'politician'...
....and sorta like a clergyman as opposed to a 'spiritual' man.

Oh well, that's showbiz!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:45 PM

See my rather long post above, at 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

I think I do know what it means, an' I'm agin it.