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BS: I voted for Obama, but...
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 11 - 04:41 PM Oh, man...I can't resist answering this one... ;-) "Obama needs to be removed from office as an example." By whom? By a mob of enraged apes and monkeys! And replaced with whom? Chongo Chimp, of course! Who else? And how are you going to bring that about? By acclamation. Or if that fails, by a November putsch that rocks Washington and puts a REAL chimp in the White House! (not an ersatz chimp imitator like we had back in 2000-2008) All reasonable questions. Indeed, Don. And I have answered them. ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:20 PM Bruce says we are not going to have any bananas at the rate we are going, LH... That happen and Chongz gonna up and quit... You want that??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 04 Nov 11 - 06:15 PM Thank you, Little Hawk. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 11 - 06:53 PM A looming banana crisis would probably upset Chongo as much as anything possibly could, Bobert. I predict that this rumor will only serve to give greater impetus to his already wellnigh unstoppable campaign. I also want to add that I would have voted for Obama (with some reservations) back in 2008 if I could have...and I was very glad that he won and McCain lost...but I have not been at all well impressed by his performance once in office. Still, I'm not surprised by that. I kind of suspected it would turn out this way...though I dearly hoped that it might not. And how would it have turned out with McCain in the White House? Probably even worse! But we'll never know for sure. Anyway, I don't think McCain had any chance whatsoever of winning after 8 mind-numbing years of George Bush. It was time for the "bait and switch" boys who fund the Big Two to do the old switcheroo, which is what always happens when one of the 2 mega-parties has utterly worn out its welcome with the American public. The other one is then ushered in (by corporate funding) as the supposed saviour who will make everything right again! (which they most certainly are not, and they will NOT do) And then the whole process starts over again from the beginning. It's a lot like that in Canada too. And in the UK. And, I suspect, in most of the western world. Elections are empty and costly propaganda shows put on to distract the general public and make them think they can significantly change the way their government functions. They could too, if the political parties were really serving the general public....but they aren't...they are serving their major sources of funding, and that's not the general public. It's the banks and the big business community. The odd maverick like Dennis Kucinich sincerely tries to fight back against what's happening. The corporates' way of dealing with people like Dennis Kucinich is: A. don't fund them B. see that they get very little mass media coverage C. use gerrymandering (re-drawing voting districts) to destroy their electability when the next election comes around. There have been repeated attempts to nullify Dennis's support by redrawing the voting districts around Cleveland in such a way as to split up the areas that tend to support him so he will lose the votes of many of his most loyal supporters, and thereby lose his seat in the next election. Option "C" is a game both the Democrats and Republicans have played throughout their history, and it has resulted in some hilariously illogical boundaries to voting districts, cleverly designed to help either one party or the other. Both parties are utterly lacking in shame when it comes to these sort of dishonest shenanigans. Both parties would, I think, be delighted to end Dennis Kucinich's political career, so they are probably fairly well agreed on the gerrymandering when it comes to his particular district. The Republicans don't want him. The Democratic Party bosses would be pleased not to have him either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:07 PM The Republican state house has gerrymandered the Congressional districts in a manner that is going to make Dennis Kucinich's re-election doubtful, LH... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 11 - 08:51 PM Yup. Dennis has been sending out emails to his supporters about that for some time now. I'm on his email list, even though I cannot vote for him. I wish I could. It's truly disgusting, this gerrymandering nonsense, but there is apparently no legal provision in place to prevent the party which is in power from doing it...so of course, they do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Goose Gander Date: 05 Nov 11 - 01:31 AM yes, we have no bananas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,999 Date: 05 Nov 11 - 03:00 AM Great article on gerrymandering at the below link. Maps included. http://www.theawl.com/2011/07/gerrymandered-u-s-a |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:45 AM Given the options, it probably has to be Obama, I guess. However, with gerrymandering and voter suppression, and the looming lack of enthusiasm among young voters who were key to his election, his re-election is in doubt. Hoping the Repubs don't nominate someone who is certifiable. But so far, they don't show such an inclination. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 05 Nov 11 - 09:14 AM I'm surprised that the that website didn't have the 7th district in Virginia which is where Eric Cantor is from... In order to get Cantor (or a Cantor-type) elected the Republican statehouse gerrymandered that so as to disenfranchise Richmond voters (Dems) by snaking the district north thru parts of Henrico, Hanover, Caroline, Orange, Rappahanock counties and then settling in the Republican rich Page County... The district is well over 100 miles long... If Eric Cantor had to win in the the city he lives (Richmond) he would never get elected... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: akenaton Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:03 PM I see its party Politics as usual .....so much for the new protest movement. Here is a piece from a proper journalist on why we are, where we are. Mathew Parriss |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:43 PM Both of those 2 parties are equally unscrupulous about gerrymandering districts to manipulate the vote. The odd thing is that their supporters only seem to notice (and to complain) when it's the other party that does the gerrymandering! ;-D That's why I want to see ALL political parties cease to exist. We would be far better off if there were no political parties and we voted for nothing but independent, non-partisan candidates who were funded equally by public funds, and who got equal air time to present their views, and who were NOT allowed to make personal attacks on other candidates, but merely to present their own views and ideas on policy when running for office. Like in Cuba. Yup. That is how it's done in Cuba, and it results in fair, decent, honorable, and democratic elections...that cost a tiny fraction of what ours do. This is how Cubans elect both their local officials and their national assembly. No school-age child in the USA ever hears one honest word about the Cuban system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 05 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM You know, I read a lot of people here on these threads saying that the United States should get rid of the two-party system because it is corrupt. I don't argue that particular point. BUT— I don't read anyone's suggestions as to how U. S. citizens are supposed to go about ending the two-party system. Like the kibitzer who stands behind you in a card game and keeps saying, "Play the ace! Play the ace!" when you don't HAVE any aces. Can we hear some practical, realistic suggestions? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: pdq Date: 05 Nov 11 - 03:28 PM Speaking about gerrymandering, check out this cute little district in California... CA-23 |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Nov 11 - 04:05 PM That is a hilarious example, pdq! ;-) Don - It's very hard to know what to suggest Americans should do...other than NOT continuing to believe in and back the existing 2-party system. If enough people stop believing in it, it will eventually cease to be viable or sustainable, and something else will take its place. Asking people to provide an immediate solution to your present 2-party system is kind of like asking people in Germany in 1941 to provide an immediate solution to the Nazi Party...or the war. It's like asking people to provide an immediate solution to the very bad dietary habits that most North Americans are presently accustomed to: consuming inordinate amounts of junk food and sugar and legal drugs and white flour products. I mean, heck, you can certainly point out what's gone wrong, and it's plain to see...but do you really think that a hundred million sheep are going to immediately change their past habits and stop doing what's bad for them? No. A few will change. The rest will fall prey to inertia and habit (and fear of change), and will keep doing as they have done in the past. And presently a few more will change. Eventually enough people will change, and the old systems and old ways will collapse and give way to something new. The main thing that I see occurring which does give me some hope is the OWS movement, because it's not trying to work within the old system. I think we have to see something entirely new, something like what swept the old Soviet Union out of existence at the end of the 1980s, and it will come through millions of individual people taking power by empowering their own lives and trusting themselves to make change rather than by relying on corrupt old political party machines and party "leaders" to do it for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,999 Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:10 PM I have come to distrust the UN more than the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: pdq Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:22 PM The odd boundries of CA-23 could be legitimate. The legislators were just trying to get a safe Congressional district for sand dabs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:55 PM Did you mean "sand crabs"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: pdq Date: 05 Nov 11 - 06:04 PM I'll take a chance that this is worth watching... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYq1t_sZi6g My ancient computer doesn't "do" YouTube. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: gnu Date: 05 Nov 11 - 06:18 PM Not to be tooo negative, but, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Stringsinger Date: 06 Nov 11 - 06:16 PM Obama is continuing the Afghan fiasco, tepidly acknowledging the economic woes of our country but not mentioning OWS by name or living up to his promise to put on tennis shoes and join the Wisconsin protests as Scott Walker tries to gut the union and shut people out of the statehouse. The Wisconsin Senate has voted to allow concealed weapons into the Statehouse (GOP naturally) and to ban all photographic equipment and picket signs. Fascism comes to Wisconsin while Obama says nothing about it. As to bring home troops from Iraq, the malevolent contractors who outnumber the military are in place as well as the grotesque military base there. Now he endorses the "gang of 12" and that's just what they are as the Democrats on the committee give away Medicare and Medicaid in their opening negotiating gambits. I call Obama now Audacity of Hoax. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Nov 11 - 08:47 PM I call him 4 more years of George Bush, only he talks much more intelligently...but it's still just 4 more years of Bush as far as I'm concerned. I suspect that is because Obama really works for almost exactly the same consortium of corporate/military/imperial/banking interests that Bush did. This is how 2 political parties are used to maintain a corrupt Oligarchy. It's simple: the Oligarchy funds both of them, and they dutifully follow its orders once in office, work with its lobbyists, and very effecfively use their supporters' mutual hatred of one another to keep people divided and distracted from what's really going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 06 Nov 11 - 09:02 PM I call him trying to get to a 2nd term where anyone with any progressive ideas knows is where they can be laid out... A 2nd term Obama can be a progressives dream... This is raw politics, folks, against Boss Hog sitting on $2T in cash to defeat him... For Obama to show all his cards now would be suicidal and bad for any chance the progressives have in ever bringing about any progressive change... Give the man a break... He may very well be the Trojan Horse but, even if he isn't, who realistically is going to be the next president that has any chance of getting the progressive ball further down the field??? If you can't answer those questions then get off his back... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 06 Nov 11 - 10:55 PM Obama's not progressive. He's regressive. He's killed NASA's manned spaceflight ventures. Made Americans earthbound for the first time in decades. He's put Social Security on the table for cutting. A second term would mean he goes ahead and cuts it, because he doesn't have to worry about re-election. He's widened the wars, after saying he'd end them. He's become the first American president to openly kill Americans. He gave his backers half a billion dollars with the Solyndra scam and then said he doesn't need to justify his actions. His administration's been caught running guns into Mexico. People died because of it. He stabbed his environmental supporters in the back with the Keystone pipeline deal. He capped British Petroleum's outlays at $20 billion dollars. The media reported that BP was being FINED, but in truth Obama saved them trillions in cleanup costs with the $20 billion cap. Oh, and he helped install al Qeada as the governing body in Libya, and he's fine with lynching blacks in that country. I never said I'm a Democrat. I'm an independent, moderate. I held my nose and voted for Obama because he said he would end the wars. He had no decades-long history of lying like Songbird McCain did, so I went with Obama. But now I know he's a continuation of the Bush/Cheney/Rice neo-conservatism. We've been under the rule of the neo conservatives since Bush I took office, at least. While Limbaugh says "we're becoming" a socialist country, we're moving past socialism into fascism. We've BEEN socialist since FDR's day, and now Obama (under left-wing cover) is dismantling the last of the socialist programs. His Obamacare is an attempt to turn over all healthcare to a handful of private providers. Fascism. I suspected this might happen, but I also thought that Democrats would spot it for what it was. But they're still fixated on skin color. Go figure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 06 Nov 11 - 11:15 PM Songwronger... Rather than tell us why you hate Obama why not tell us your plan... Or just shut up and join the real world... I mean, there are millions of things happening every day in the US government... You want Obama to stay on top of every one of them... That is impossible... You didn't vote for him... You are a Republican troll or an loonie anarchist.. Don't much matter to me... You have shot your wad here... Get into the real world... I mean, you can be an OWSer and have a grasp of reality... It's very possible if you take the hatred of Obama and put it where it belongs... On Boss Hog where it belongs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Nov 11 - 11:20 PM I don't think they're fixated on skin color as much as fixated on the fact that he's one of theirs instead of being a despised Republican, Songwronger. Sure, skin color may play some part in many Democrats' idealistic notions about Mr Obama's supposed altruism, after being prepared for such idealism by decades of watching feelgood movies about noble blacks fighting the lonely fight against racism, just like all those other movies we've seen about noble gays, noble Native Americans, noble suffering women, and anyone else handy who serves as a symbolic way of allowing millions of guilty whites to expiate their crushing (imagined) burden of shared historical guilt and feel a little better about themselves, etc... But the main thing for his diehard supporters is merely this: He's NOT a blood-sucking Republican!!!!!!!!! ;-) My guess is that Bobert would be defending Al Gore, John Kerry, Hilary Clinton, or any other elected Democratic president if they had been elected in 2008 instead of Obama, and with the same touching but (in my opinion) naive loyalty that he is showing for Mr Obama. It's because he is so horrified at the thought of the Republicans returning to office (and I'll admit it definitey horrifies me too...)! Obama's just GOT to be the Trojan Horse candidate who will turn things around, you see...or my pal Bobert's got NOTHING to hope for in the next 5 years! I sympathize with your plight, Bobert. Everyone wants some kind of hope to look forward with. I can understand why you are still clinging to the hope that Obama will prove to be a genuine progressive. I don't have any hope that he will. Not a shred. Not any longer. I have no hope in either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party...but I don't get to vote for those guys anyway. Good thing. I'd hate to think I'd helped either one of them get into office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 06 Nov 11 - 11:45 PM No, LH... Obama was the first Dem I voted for since Jimmy Carter... As for reality??? The Dems, like they did in the 60s with the Civil Rights Act put their balls on the line with the Affordable Care Act... They knew that it was going to cost them... Boss Hog made his wishes very clear... He was going to throw more money at the 2010 elections at Tea Party morons as it took... No one is allowed to know how much because the Supreme Court says it "none of your business"... Given the massive conspiracy between the corporations and the Republican Party it's not unreasonable to take on the closest enemy... This isn't about Dems as much as it is going after the worst of the bad... Pragmatism... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 07 Nov 11 - 12:38 AM Obama IS Boss Hog. Or Hoss Bog. Big dude on Bonanza by way of Blazing Saddles. And Democrats are fixated on race. How many hundreds of times have views critical of Obama been marked up to racism since he got into office? More than anyone can count. Endlessly parroted. Democrats were told to answer all criticisms with the racism mantra the way that supporters of Israel are told to play the anti-semite card. It's tiresome and tedious. No one buys it anymore, except a few scared democrats. Democrats have been hogtied by political correctness, and moderate America has given them their chance. Backlash will now be to more out in the open fascism, I guess, then back to some hidden fascism, then open, hidden. Sure get tired of people rooting for their teams. Dan Blocker and Cleavon Little. Knew the names would come to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 12:51 AM Who exactly were you voting for in the years between Carter and Obama, Bobert? (just wondering) Was it 3rd party candidates? Or Republicans? I know you think it's pragmatism to vote for Obama instead of for the Republicans, whoever they come up with...but what makes you think the corporates are ONLY engaged in "a massive conspiracy" with just the Republicans? Seems to me that both parties are included in that massive conspiracy you are referring to, and that the corporates have them both firmly in their pocket. They just use the fact that there ARE 2 big parties to make you Americans think you have a real choice in an election. A real alternative. A real way through the ballot box to remove corporate control of your government. In my opinion, you don't. Not at the ballot box. And you know what? That's exactly the problem Canadians and people in the UK have too. They cannot do a damn thing at the ballot box to change the fact that a consortium of huge corporations and banks are in truth running their governments by buying out all the political parties that have any chance of forming a government. The financiers are in control of the system. And what is the goal of a financier? To make MORE money. And how do they do it? Well, we've all seen how, haven't we? Through war production and fraud. Through moving jobs to other countries. Through generating massive debt by perpetrating giant pyramid schemes that end up bankrupting a society. And they got bailed out after doing it, didn't they? You think Obama is gonna fight those guys? I don't. I think he's working for them. And the Republicans work for them too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 01:20 AM Jesus...! Bobert...you have to see this: Jack Abramoff - The whole system is corrupt" - The story of a Washington DC lobbyist I just finished watching it after seeing the link posted on the OWS thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 07 Nov 11 - 11:29 AM Jack just got caught... The Koch brothers make him look like a Boy Scout... As for presidential elections... I sat out quite a few... Voted for Carter when he lost to Ronnie Raygun and then just voted for local contests and abstained from the presidential election until '96 when I voted for Nader... Then in 2000 I worked in Nader's campaign... I brokered my vote in 2004 and voted for Kerry in West Virginia in exchange for a Nader vote in Virginia... And I will vote vote for Obama again next year because I hold out hope that he has some Trojan horse in him and will be a much different 2nd term president... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 11:42 AM Well, Jack may look like a Boy Scout compared to some, but his story sheds some powerful light on the situation, doesn't it? I bet you can count the congressmen who haven't been corrupted by lobbying in some way on the fingers of one hand. (If there are any at all who haven't been.) In a situation like that, how does one get a government to behave responsibly and serve the people who elected it? I don't know, frankly. I don't think the present form of government even can be reformed without some sort of revolution...but I am not talking about a violent revolution, because that would probably result in some sort of fascist takeover. I'm talking about a completely nonviolent revolution. That requires a massive mobilization of ordinary people who simply refuse to go along with the present system. It's been done in a few places. I expect it can be done here too, the only question is "when?". Until it is done, I don't see any way of preventing Big Money from tacitly running the government. Abramoff points out that the feeble legislative efforts that have been made in recent years to prevent lobbyists from influencing Congressmen have been easily outmaneuvered by the lobbyists. I think it's almost impossible to draft a body of law that blocks every possible route someone with a lot of money has to influence the legislative process. There are simply too many different ways of doing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 07 Nov 11 - 01:38 PM Here's the problem... In order for a senator to have enough campaign money to run a successful re-election campaign he must raise an average of $8,000 a day... That sad reality is why we have a corrupt government... Public financing of elections (no exceptions) is the one biggest thing we can do to restore democracy... Right now, we don't have democracy... We have taxation without representation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:44 PM I couldn't agree more. And how the hell do you change such a system from within when the very people benefiting from it most are the same ones who are empowered to legislate change? It's a Catch-22. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 11 - 03:09 PM First up, I don't think there's anything "naïve" about Bobert. He's been there, done that, and in the immortal words of Douglas Adams, he knows where his towel is. There is a very hopeful sign in a story I heard on my local NPR affiliate this morning: Ranked choice voting. To me, this sounds like the same thing as "preferential voting" or "instant run-off voting." Although, according to the NPR story, some people find this confusing, PROBABLY because it's a bit more complicated than the system we have now—AND voters would need to be a bit more savvy about the various candidates. A GOOD thing, that! Some cities in the U. S. already use this system, as do several countries. The advantage of this—which the two parties undoubtedly will not like at all—is that it gives the voter a slate of viable candidates, not just a choice between REALLY bad and not QUITE so bad. It makes it possible for the voter to vote FOR the candidate he prefers, even if the word is that that particular candidate doesn't stand a chance. For example, Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich. If that candidate gets insufficient votes to be in the running, your vote moves up to your second choice, and so on. This means that you can go ahead and vote for the candidate you prefer without fear of throwing your vote away, rather than having to vote for the least crooked of two crooks. Works for me! Maybe we should start a movement!! One modus operandi: get it started on the local level (which it seems to already have!), then when it catches on, demand that it go national. Don Firth P. S. I am NOT willing to just sit on my hands and whine, "Oh, woe! Oh, woe!" like some people seem to be! |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 03:25 PM Don, you are unfairly mischaracterizing people who point out an existing problem as just "sitting on their hands and saying "Woe! Woe!". To talk to other people about a problem and articulate it clearly IS one of the things that inspires people to seek change, and that is the purpose of protest songs, protest literature (like Dicken's novels about the appalling social conditions in Victorian England), and public discourse in general. That aside, I think your suggestion about ranked choice voting is an excellent one. You're right that the established parties won't like it, but it's a reform that is sorely needed, and the more people who hear about it, the better. We are discussing things not merely to utter "Woe! Woe", but to do the following: 1. Clearly identify the existing problem! 2. Clearly understand it. 3. Make others aware of it so they can understand it. 3. And look for ways to solve it. The more these things are discussed, the more it will eventually percolate through to many other people, and that's how change is eventually accomplished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 11 - 03:42 PM Touchy touchy, Little Hawk! I was not necessarily referring to you. And I don't need to be lectured to. I am FULLY AWARE of the dynamics of the situation. But you DO have the habit of repeating the difficulties over and over again without offering any practical suggestions, or even suggesting that there might be any. Quite to opposite. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:11 PM Do you feel that I am lecturing you??? Why? I'm simply explaining and articulating my own thoughts on the subject. I am no more lecturing you than you are lecturing me...or whoever else you might be talking to here. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think we are both quite aware of the dynamics of the situation, and I wasn't suggesting that you are not. I was voicing my thoughts. That's what we all do here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: akenaton Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM Silly fuckers!.....Do you really believe that you will be allowed to change anything, from within this system, in the the timespan that you envisage? Change in the time that you seem to expect, would take a civil war....which would be almost certainly lost and as Hawk says would result in a Fascist State. The people who run this system and the political Parties which provide a bit of diversion for the intellectually challenged ("liberals"), would not hesitate to slaughter us in our thousands. The only hope is to recognise the nature of the problem with Capitalism......for it is the capitalist mindset which has perverted the way we live.....in every walk of life it leaves its grubby fingermarks, turning humanity into greedy unfeeling selfish ultra consumers. Dont bother occupying Wall St.....these people are beyond help, they have no feeling, no empathy with the folks struggling at the bottom of the Capitalist cesspit. Start by occupying the minds of your brothers and sisters who still believe the "American Dream".......this needs to be played as a long game, OWS means to most people, that "the system can be fixed", but most of you Dems know that full well, I'm sure you promote that idea on purpose. To paraphase Mr Obama......."NO IT FUCKIN' CAIN'T" |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:20 PM Well, Little Hawk, just about every time someone makes a suggestion of what can be done, you seem to come back with your same observations on how hopeless the political situation in the U. S. is, so it's really easy to get the impression that you're saying, "Give it up! Nothing can be done! You're stuck with it." Now, Ake's post just above goes even further than that, suggesting the only thing Americans can do is break out the Red Banner and storm the Winter Palace. Been done. Didn't seem to work out real well. . . . Shades of the back booth in the Blue Moon Tavern. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:48 PM Actually, Don, Akenaton plainly says in his post that to "break out the Red Banner and storm the Winter Palace" (your words) would probably result in "a civil war....which would be almost certainly lost and as Hawk says would result in a Fascist State".(his words) Therefore he is not advising what you say he is advising. He is saying that change to this existing system is going to take a lot longer than most of us would like it to. And he is saying that we have to work change in the minds of millions of our fellow citizens in order to change things, and that will take some time. It may take a generation or two to do it. I tend to agree with that. Anyway, there's a problem in human relations that keeps happening here, and it goes like this: If you deliberately interpret (or misinterpret) another person's words in the way that best suits your low opinion of him, meaning in the worst way...rather than trying to understand what he is actually saying to you...you will probably be doing him an injustice and erecting a straw man in his place to hurl invective at. It would be really handy for the gratification of the ego if everyone we disagreed with about politics was stupid, evil, wrongheaded, and an idiot to boot...but it just ain't so, Don. Yet people here keep dumping on other people as if it were so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:53 PM There are OWS groups in every major city in the US... It's not hopeless... It's hopeful... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:09 PM Little Hawk, it's not a matter of my ego! Nor is it a matter of misinterpretation. My observation that the suggestions offered about what U. S. citizens can do being met by floods of negativism is a matter of direct observation. And it's predictable! E.g., "If I say this, I know darn well that is going to come in and tell me why it won't work!" What I'm saying is, let's not dwell on how difficult it's going to be. Let's figure ways and means. Then, let's GET CRACKING! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:41 PM Yeah, everyone gets pretty predictable when you've know them awhile, Don. ;-) That's why so many people can't stand some of their close relatives. We have all become very predictable to each other on this forum. Anyway, I am very much in favour of the OWS movement. I have far more faith in it that Akenaton does, mainly because I remember what Gandhi did in India and what (most of) the Warsaw Pact did in the late 80s. They accomplished a revolution without major violence (except in Rumania). That revolution did not attain all its hoped-for objectives. The people in general were not mature enough to grasp the vision of social transformation that Gorbachev was offering them, and they opted instead for parochial fractionalism and division. In some places it was taken over by corrupt politicians (such as Boris Yeltsin, for one) and criminal oligarchies. But at least it proved that you CAN bring a mighty system down without killing hundreds of thousands or even millions of people in a civil war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:00 PM That's the beauty here in the US... We have a good foundation... Yeah, the government has been corrupted by the rich... That is fixable without a violent revolution but... ...if it doesn't get fixed then we could see it get messy... I would hope that OWS is helping to jack some folks consciousnesses up to where they will quit supporting and voting for people who are not part of the solution... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:13 PM Agreed, Little Hawk. This OWS movement that has not only spread all over the country, but much of the world as well, I see as a really hopeful sign. Despite the attempts of some folks to attribute it to sinister motives on the part of the usual Powers That Be, it appears to me that it has said Powers That Be trembling in their boots. Didn't I hear yesterday that some 600,000 people shifted their bank accounts from the BIG banks (Bank of America, Chase, etc.) to small local banks and credit unions? As far as the biggies are concerned, that's gotta smart! And that campaign was pretty much set up on the internet. I know I got several e-mails urging me to move my account to a neighborhood bank or credit union, but I wasn't able to sign a pledge to do that because my wife and I already use a credit union, and have for years. We have ONE credit card, which we got through them also; no fees or charges if you pay off your balance every month, which we do. I think this OWS movement is a good indication that the genii is out of the bottle and is just starting to test his strength! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 11 - 11:10 PM So do I, and it's the Internet that has made it possible, because ordinary people all over the world can talk directly to each other now and share information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 11 Nov 11 - 08:55 AM I did vote for him. And I have been very disappointed. However, as I watch the Republican campaign, I am struck by the fact that Obama has more mental horsepower than the whole Republican field combined...times three! Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:12 PM Oh, he's a smart man, all right. No doubt about that. But what is his intelligence really in service of? Did you vote for this? Speech by an veteran of the Iraq War Keep in mind after watching it that this is what you get with Bush, McCain, Obama, Hillary Clinton, AND anyone else whom the Republicans will pick to run for them in 2012...you get it with all of them. This is what you get, because they all work for the same basic purposes which are imperial in nature and in design. The election is to make you think you have a choice in the matter...and it serves well to keep you divided too, which is always handy for your rulers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM And what should we, as citizens, do about that, Little Hawk? GfS? Anybody? I KNOW what's wrong with the system. I'd like to hear a few viable suggestions from some of the chronic doom-sayers as to how to change it. Again, anybody? Don Firth |
