BS: Demise of the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:21 AM

'Marxist-Leninists'... ahhh.. that's a quaint old term.. which century is Ian Lucas living in...??? 🙄


..just looking at the parallels between me and Lucas..

near enough the same age, both grammar school educated council estate kids..

.. but when I was sent for an interview for a job as a trainee solicitor, I told 'em I'd rather play guitar in a punk band,
and the interview was finished abruptly as I was ushered out of the office...

Thank Joe Strummer I didn't end up as Ian Lucas.....


[wouldn't mind his standard of living though...]

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:42 AM

Anybody vaguely left of Tony Blair is regarded as Marxist Leninist in today's careerist-crammed Labour Party with its Shadow Education Ministers who send their children to private schools..... et al
Problem with people like Keith is they choose not to read beyond the labels.
Principled people like Corbyn make them shit blue ollies - a politician with ideals "hand me the crucifix and the holy water!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 06:42 PM

Raggytash - 04 Jul 16 - 03:55 PM

Just how much did that "nice Mr Farage" claim in expenses?

One would hope at least as much as the collective twats Kinnock.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:08 PM

I don't think I have commented on the Kinnocks Teribus. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:57 PM

Well as a matter of fact, Teribus, I agree with you about the Kinnocks, shock bloody horror. So why did you bother mentioning them? They're nobody's heroes this end, I assure you!

" Mr Farage would have been allowed no say in how the exit is brought forward He would have to be in government to be considered and the stupid bastards all hate him anyway"

Well it isn't the "stupid bastards" in government who have kept Nige at bay. It's the stupid bastard British electorate, who have decisely rejected his attempts to become an MP seven times out of seven. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:34 AM

MEPs being part of a useless gravy train for get paid inflated salaries, masses in expenses that require no receipts, allowances and upon completion of their elected five year term an 80% salary pension upon which, irrespective of where they live is taxed at the lowest rate of taxation in the EU. If anyone can actually tell me what these parasites have done over the past 43 years I'd be amazed.

So if Farage is an elected member of the European Parliament he is therefore free to claim any expenses and allowances to which he is entitled - whether he actually incurred them or not as is the will of the EU. Now that I would have thought was all fairly obvious to anyone with regard to any MEP - so a bit of a daft question Raggy, the answer to which should have been pretty self evident - even to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 04:30 AM

I am not at all surprised that Mr Farage has not been elected, given the comprehensive media hate campaign to which he has been subjected over the last number of years.....Even now when all mainstream political Parties have belatedly accepted his views on immigration he is still the subject of universal loathing by the "liberal" left (see these pages) Irregularities in the conduct of the last election are still being considered, as public money was pumped into the constituency in an attempt to stop Mr Farage from being elected.

Thankfully Mr Farage and his views have been fully vindicated by the largest vote of all ....a national referendum.

"Get used to it"!

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 04:31 AM

Well done Teribus, you at least acknowledge that the "nice Mr Farage" is on a personal gravy train. His expenses claims have been questionable over and above the allowance that each MEP is given. You could try explaining some of this to those on "your side" who seem to think it is not worth mentioning.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 04:33 AM

It occurs to me that you should recognise the efficacy of such a media hate campaign as it is still in operation and is now directed at Mr Corbyn.......or do you always only see one side of the coin?

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:25 AM

"you at least acknowledge that the "nice Mr Farage" is on a personal gravy train. His expenses claims have been questionable over and above the allowance that each MEP is given."

What personal gravy train are you referring to Raggy? Would that be the European Union Member of Parliament pay/expenses/allowances & pension gravy train set up by the EU Commission/Council/Parliament for the benefit of those who happen to "work" for the highly corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable organisation organisation known as the EU? Hardly personal Raggy even to your fevered imagination.

As to his expenses being questionable. As you have mentioned this it would appear that you actually know what his expenses are which begs the obvious question why ask what expenses he received? You would appear to already know the answer. Why do you ask questions you already know the answers to Raggy? To impress yourself with the extent of your astounding knowledge?

I totally agree with what Akenaton says about Farage being almost totally responsible for there ever having been a referendum on Europe despite promises of one, reneged upon, by major political figures. Akenaton is also correct in drawing attention to the vast sums of money spent by political opponents and the campaign of ridicule and vilification mounted by the media against this man, who guess what? Is entitled to exactly the same rights of free speech as you or anyone else in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:32 AM

The TV and radio media have been pretty neutral regarding Farage and have given him a lot of airtime on programmes such as Question Time and Any Questions. In fact, he and his party have been given a damn sight more oxygen than any other political group you could care to name that has always had no more than either nil seats or one seat (and you love first past the post, remember, before you start bleating about how many votes they got). Most of the print media, especially the tabloids, have supported him. Papers such as the Guardian, which opposes UKIP, do so in a measured manner and in no way could be accused of whipping up a "hate campaign." The good old British tradition of lampooning politicians in satirical shows has treated him no better nor worse than any other politician. Frankly, you want your hero to have been a victim of a hate campaign so that you can moan to us that he's been a victim of a hate campaign. In other words,you're making it up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM

Independent, 2 hours ago,

"Labour officials try to work out who owns party assets as split looms over Corbyn
'You would think that this had been settled after the last split, but it wasn't,' official says"

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM

Believe me Shaw I have no political heroes. Neither of the current leadership wrangles holds any interest for me as they concern members of political parties and I have never been a member of any political party in my life.

Truth remains though that had there been no Nigel Farage then there would have been no EU Referendum, something that the British public have wanted for years. He fought, single-handed at times to get one - he did and I thank him for it. If you opponents of democracy do not like that then that is your problem, voice your own opinions and do not presume to speak for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

We will have many years to consider the out vote.

We are already aware of the negative effect on the value of the pound, a 38 year low against the dollar, a fall of over 10% in one week against the Euro.

What will you say to the people who lose their job, oh let me guess "we've got FREEDOM!"

Just as stupid as Wallace shouting it when his guts and gonads were on fire at his feet

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:29 AM

My remarks were in response to akenaton's bogus claim of a hate campaign, not to you, Teribus. I don't think that was too difficult to work out. As for the public wanting a referendum for years, prove it. I'd say that it was quite low on the list of the public's priorities, though of course Nige has persuaded them tirelessly that it wasn't. You have no evidence that Europe has ever swung any general election, for example, and his Euroscepticism still managed to see William Hague well and truly dumped, as I recall. Two days to save us from the euro my arse. Incidentally, I have no heroes of any kind whatsoever except for Beethoven. You are under suspicion of having Maggie for yours, as you often defend her even before she's been attacked, as in go on, blame Maggie for that as well, I know you will... 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:02 AM

The largest media outlet is the BBC....ever tried listening vto politics or news on BBC radio 4, So called comedy shows full of shitty "jokes" about Mr Farage's "racism"....interviews from the likes of Jon Snow referring to "black sheep"......."yet I hesitate to use the word black in your company Mr Farage".

Disgusting creep!.....but the BBC is full of them, mind they do love transsexuals and anything socially radical   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:11 AM

The BBC rags Cameron, Blair, Brown, Corbyn and you name 'em just as much as Nigel Farage. Considering the incredibly poor representation of his party (thanks to the first past the post setup that you and Teribus love so much) he should be thankful he gets any airtime at all. If you have any complaints about media treatment of Farage, give us the links so that we can judge the context, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

(thanks to the first past the post setup that you and Teribus love so much)

Well according to what you said about the way you voted in 2011 in the Alternative Voting Referendum it would appear that you favour it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party...???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:20 AM

Ake - it seems there are two Akes

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:29 AM

Ake - it seems there are two Akes...???

The one I can enjoy a transgressive grin at reading, and almost agree with on socialist analysis...

and the other one who holds views that are perversely out of touch with almost all reasonably and commonly accepted social consensus....

baffling.....?????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

Mr Farage and his views have been fully vindicated

So you believe that xenophobic racism has been "vindicated", Ake?

Thus you must also consider The Trumpshit vindicated in his support of the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:16 PM

"Disgusting creep!....."
Farage or Daniel Snow?
"He admits he wants to change the law so employers can discriminate on grounds of nationality. There was a time when people used to post signs saying: "No dogs. No blacks. No Irish." Nigel Farage, by his own admission, wants to make it permissible to again put up signs that say: "No dogs. No Irish." "
FARAGE
"mind they do love transsexuals and anything socially radical"
Homophobic creep
MENTAL DISORDER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

I reserve my democratic right to not disclose to you how I vote, Teribus, so desist from guessing. Now bugger off, will you, with this thought: there is no black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:57 PM

PFR....You are one of the few who usually deserve a response.

I am a lifelong believer in Socialism as a means of delivering purposeful lives to the people of this country, Socialism will take many years to be absorbed by an electorate who have been bred and educated in the game of financial aspiration.
Someday they will realise the unsustainability of the Capitalist economic system.

On social matters I am extremely conservative. I share this view with most of the serious Socialists with whom I have come into contact.

The "liberal left" are half hearted reformists......those of them who have any vestige of principle left; but in reality they have as much chance of reforming the Capitalist system as Mr Cameron had of reforming the EU.......They are only interested in social posturing it makes them feel as if they are in some way relevant.....that feeling is massively misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM

Mad as a box of frogs. I bet Teribus doesn't come along to wholeheartedly agree with you. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:23 PM

MrT and I have different views on political matters, however he bases his arguments on facts and makes his case for the retention of the current system very well and very sensibly.
There is a possibility which I accept that he may be right and I may be wrong, but there is no possibility that the "liberal left" are correct in their ideology. Capitalism is a cut throat system with no room for the posturing of faux socialists. The "liberal left" see the destruction of society as a victory.....they have little vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:34 PM

So Ake, about that bit of vindicating xenophobic racism..........

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:16 PM

He's barking, Greg. Regard your interventions with him as entertainment only. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:33 AM

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM

You've lost your bet Shaw, I see no reason at all to disbelieve what Akenaton states as being his beliefs regarding both capitalism and socialism, I can accept fully that he is stating his view plainly and honestly. As he states in a subsequent post we hold different views, but only on some things, not all. I wholeheartedly agree with what he states in his last paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:10 AM

"I share this view with most of the serious Socialists with whom I have come into contact."

So... if you don't share Ake's opinion you're not a serious socialist. This type of argument is called a fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:32 AM

Ake seriously reminds me of old socialists I used to know 30 odd years ago
when I was a student learning to understand 'everything'..

The recent Brit movie "Pride" excellently depicts that era.

- A time of Working class militants with ingrained regressive attitudes towards 'minorities' and women.. -

His analysis helps stir memories of who I used to be, and what I used to think,
before my mind eventually became fogged & torpid with all the shit life constantly throws at you..
and I find benefit in that while I'm struggling to piece my intellect back together again.....

But Ake.. it's you your conclusions leading you down a blind alley re farage and 'gays' where I part company...

I think you sincerely believe what you say on those subjects.. but like most others here, I can't accept it.
and hope you could positively rethink your position on those issues...???

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 10:22 AM

it's the weekend... "Pride" - Trailer

yeah.. ok.. it's a shamelessly emotionally manipulative feel-good comedy drama movie.. but so what..
Wallow in it.. have a good laugh and wipe a few tears...


If you haven't seen it, you can find the DVD for 3 quid..

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:09 PM

I don't quite understand the link between Mr Farage and homosexuals PFR...... I admire Mr Farage's bravery and his clear sightedness regarding unregulated immigration from the EU and the effect it has on society. I am opposed to Mr Farage's views on the economy but am quite prepared to give him credit on other issues.
The trouble with The "liberal left" is that they suffer from ideological blindness, if people do not conform to their views on one subject then everything else is ignored or seen as invalid.
I judge people as I see them on each separate issue.

Observe the language used by so called liberals here, they are chock full of hate for everyone and everything which does not fit into their ideological agenda....Fascist, xenophobe, racist, homophobe, it never ceases long enough for these people to listen and consider what has actually been said.

On Homosexuals, my views are well known and unlikely to change.
I consider the behaviour dangerous and unhealthy, I have given incontrovertible stats which prove my point.
I do not "hate" or even dislike homosexu8als, I supported de-criminalisation. I simply do not agree that legislation in favour of this sexual minority is good for society or even for homosexuals themselves.   They urgently require a medical inquiry into the reasons for the huge anomaly in hetero and homo sexual health rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:21 PM

Now, Ake, about that bit on vindicating Farage's xenophobic racism...

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:25 PM

I do not believe for one second that Mr Farage is "racist" or "xenophobic".   He is a highly intelligent person his views are purely political.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:31 PM

I wasn't linking them Ake, just mentioning 2 separate issues of contention...

I remember the anguish of being a young lefty and having to conform to peer pressure
to tow the ideologically correct line on all issues
for fear of being ostracised/vilified if harbouring any personal 'doubts' on any particular one...

[I've known some very scary thatcher voting feminists, and unhinged animal rights activists in early 80s Leeds & Bristol...]

But I hoped we all grew up to realise life aint as simplistic as that...

Even so, I guess because I'm younger and matured through the inclusive culture of the 70s and 80s, that's maybe why my chosen path is different to yours...???

I might be persuaded to grudgingly consider Farage's personal 'strengths',
but no way could I ever respect him as a role model......!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:37 PM

Stu, a socialist is clearly defined politically.
Blairite "liberals" who make up the rump of the present Parliamentary Labour Party are as far removed as you can get from being socialists.

These are the people whom I describe as "not serious socialists"
They are career politicians without scruples.
There are perhaps two or three "serious socialists" on this board, but they rarely post.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:39 PM

I do not believe for one second that Mr Farage is "racist" or "xenophobic".

Now THERE'S your problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

I do not believe for one second that Mr Farage is "racist" or "xenophobic".

Now THERE'S your problem, Ake.

Or are you suggesting that Farage only PRETENDED to be a racist xenophobe in order to gain personal political advantage and votes for "Leave"?

Which would make him even slimier than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM

Ake - how can you know who is a 'serious socialist'? This is an internet forum and despite having been here for around 16 years I can't say I know anyone at all, expect those I meet personally.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, unless it's invalidating everyone else's opinion because they don't meet some arbitrary personal criteria of yours that means their views are uniformed or less relevant than those of the chosen few. Hardly the grounds for reasonable debate, especially when the Brexiteers are accusing others of doing precisely that.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

Nothing to do with "Brexit" Stu, I have socialist friends who are anti and one or two who are pro.
This issue crosses party or political divisions.

The issue is how the country should be run given the large number of problems which now affect the economy, the change in demographic in the population , our ability to compete in "globalism" etc.

The "liberal left" have fooled themselves into thinking that the present economic system can be made to work fairly when in reality it requires extreme inequality to survive and prosper. Under the correct circumstances it can prosper and some of that prosperity "trickles down" but the effects are transient and in the long term bound to fail the mass of the population
Socialists are aware that the whole edifice requires to be demolished and re-constructed few are under the impression that this will be quick easy or pain free.......but it is a necessity.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM

Ake your one trick pony argument that 'liberals have become knee jerk reactionaries when it comes to responding to Conservative assaults'

is valid.

Beyond that I don't see what else you contribute as to improving freedom and prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 12:12 PM

I never suggested that socialism would "improve freedom and prosperity" Don.
Both of these would take a hit in the short term......We lead extremely wasteful lives, we poison the planet, we are greedy selfish an acquisitive.......We demand "freedoms" to do exactly as we please regardless of the effect on society.
I we want real benefits like free education, a properly functioning health service and other public services which are fit for purpose, we will be required to relinquish many of the faux freedoms which have been handed out as sops to a nation completely without any sense of personal responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

"I am a lifelong believer in Socialism as a means of delivering purposeful lives to the people of this countr"
Then why do you spend so much time opposing it and advocating exactly the opposite?
Your arguments are National Socialist - and we know what the abbreviation for that is
Homophobia and the racist attitude you express towards immigrants is an anathema to socialist ideals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:15 PM

What is it with Angela Seagull...
Is she seriously the best leadership contender the plotters can muster...???

In terms of charisma and voter dazzling prime minister potential
she's so insipid, she even makes Corbyn look on a par with Las Vegas era rhinestone jumpsuit Elvis...!!!??? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

The plotters also want Corbyn excluded from the ballot. This is a real problem for them: if he is not excluded, the likelihood is that he will receive a massive backing and they lose whatever credibility they have left. If he is excluded that the word 'coup' is pretty well unavoidable and the likelihood of a mass resignation of members is significant. Getting rid of a leader who is 'unelectable' by ensuring the party as a whole is unelectable is an odd move.

Clearly another example of entering something without reflecting on the consequences then.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

By the way, if he is excluded from the ballot I would expect there to be a massive campaign to encourage people to write the name in by hand. These may just be reported as 'spoiled ballots' but if spoiled ballots substantially outweigh the valid ballots the legitimacy of whoever is elected will be challenged constantly and especially when the next general election takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:28 AM

So a plotting MP is supposed to be able to simply put her name forward, thereby ousting the leader. In theory, if no-one else puts their name forward and he can't get his 50, the Eagle has landed it. Blimey, even the Ayatollah couldn't do it as neatly as that. That isn't a challenge, is it. The plotters want to split the party in two, but, unlike what happened in the 80s, they want to form the big bit. Well they've got another think coming. They have shown themselves twice already to be unelectable, lest they forget. Two-time losers against the shabbiest bunch of Tories ever. Being seen, as they will be, as a ragbag collection of devious chancers (and Murdoch is waiting in the wings to do the branding), who ignored the wishes of the massive party membership, is going to make them a damn sight more unelectable than Jeremy Corbyn could ever achieve. And to think that John Major thought that HE was surrounded by bastards. The NEC had better make the right decision at their next meeting. A challenged leader who doesn't want to step down has every right to democratically defend his corner. Otherwise, I'm out, and I won't be the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:38 AM

The problem is that a Blairite Party led by someone like Hillary Benn, would be very electable, they would have the complete support of the media and the electorate are willing to support anything which they "think" gives them a voice.
What we need to ask ourselves, is electability that important if we are to be represented by a bunch of self-serving career politicians?

The rank and file of the Constituency Party want a Party which reflects their views, regardless of short term political success. As I have stated before, it will take years for people to come to terms with what socialism means.
A split would be best for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:52 AM

I am not sure, Ake. I agree a party led by Hilary Benn might have been electable if we had got there by another route, but if a lot of the rank and file knockers on doors and leaflet distributors and drivers-of-housebound-to-vote feel they have been disenfranchised from the party, it would be unsurprising if a lot decided they weren't interested. As to whether the media would support them: I doubt it. If can hear the pre-election interviews from here....