BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%

Subject: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:36 PM

Let us please start the new discussion here without reference to past internal disputes.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

From OccupyWallStreet.org:

{Note that this is not an official statement since we don't have officials. It is the opinion of one, but well spoken and widely endorsed and acted upon}

"The Occupy Movement has stated that it is Non-Violent. While this has remained overwhelmingly true, there is, undeniably, a violent element that is using OWS as a place to hide. Smashed windows, paint on buildings, and even horrifically violent stories of rape are coming out of the encampments.

The truth of it is that once any kind of violent element emerges from the movement, the movement ceases to be about stopping corruption and greed and becomes a movement about stopping violence. This simply must be the case. People will look at the violence within our movement and point to it in order to damn us. Therefore, when violence happens from the movement, we must pause and deal with it before we do anything else.

What this means is that there must be an expectation of self enforcement. We have little difficulty standing in front of a police barricade and shouting "Shame Shame Shame" to Police officers who overstep their bounds, and abuse their power. What we haven't come to realize is that we too have power that we can abuse, and some of us do abuse that power.

The moment a person engages in a violent act, they are no longer part of the movement. They are part of the problem. Even more then that, they are the most important problem. If you have gathered in order to protest a banking institution, or a government official, that protest ceases and you should begin protesting against their violent act, instantly. You should be accepting that the protest is capable of changing in this regard, as internal violence is even more dangerous than external violence.

If you see someone spraying paint on the side of a building, you should stop and begin crying "Shame Shame Shame" at them. Whip out those video cameras. Condemn their Violence. Do not allow them to hide in our numbers.

Go even farther. Give the videos of the individuals who do violence to the Police. Report the violence to the media outlets directly. Show those institutions how hard we are working to destroy violence internally. Build a trust between yourselves and those who enforce and report on these things.


Go even farther. Publicly condemn all violence done by your movement, and by others to your movement. This should be topic one in all General Assemblies; to create a statement that you can give to all media outlets condemning the violence done. This should be done every single time a violent act happens that is even remotely connected to the movement. We must show the world that we are entirely intolerant of violence, in all forms. We must show the world that we are more then willing to work with them in order to shine a light on our own internal violence.

Go Even Farther. Set up a working group to educate people about what Non-Violence is. Create a Library filled with works that show Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Make us the primary source of Non-Violent Education.

This movement cannot become perceived as a violent movement. That should be the number one goal, before anything else. Violence is catalyzing and shocking. We need to respond to it with equal fervour, while remaining entirely Non-Violent. We must be able to stand our ground and say to those who detract "We have worked hard with Police Officials and Media outlets to destroy our own violence. We have released statement after statement condemning each individual act of violence. We have turned violent offenders over to Police Officials, and made those people known to all. What more would you like?"

If we are to say we are Non-Violent, we must fight to prove it."

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:42 PM

I do not agree with everything in the above. I would whip out my video phone and give the material to the police. I would not read Ghandi or MLK when the problem is basically vandalism. I also would not go for the public condemnation. There are assholes everywhere. Best to deal with them quietly.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM

Thanks, JtS, for re-posting this great post by TIA... It kinda went down the drain with the pulling of the plug on the other thread... And is is very important because Boss Hog is ready use his vast wealth and ownership of BIG MEDIA to cripple OWS in any manner...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:50 PM

I think it has to be discussed. Obviously if OWS doesn't define its self, others will.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:01 PM

And by the way, to blow a little clean air through the room and forestall any recurrences of earlier claims, the ridiculous attempt to equate OWS demonstrations with KKK rallies, as far as I can trace back, emanated from Brit Hume of Fox News Service. Need I say more?

This, I think, is fairly good evidence that OWS has the 1% and its lackeys trembling in their boots.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

Don, you are not telling the truth about what I said.

Thanks for changing it to something you CAN argue with.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM

I see the next thread on the list is the one about the amazing speech by the war verteran. I hope it is shown at the rallies and all over the world.

BTW... 6 posts in and we get inane crap? WTF is up with you? He didn't post anything about you or about anything you posted. He could NOT have done so because you hadn't even posted to the thread yet. Ya know, when you post inane crap like that, EVERYONE who reads it shakes their heads and says "What an asshole."... more or less.

If I had the power, I would turf your ass outta here for being such a dick. Smarten the fuck up eh???!!!

Yeah I am in a bad mood. Guess why... g'wan... take a stab at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM

Bruce, He is constantly doing that to those who present truth, as opposed to what he spews forth, from wanting to be relevant...then he argues against what HE SAYS you said! Get hip to it...then his devotee, Bobert, out of frantic need for convenient 'back up' chimes in..and the bottom line is 'Vote Democratic'..regardless of how, wrong they are!..nor how fucked up the candidate is.

Now, I've saved them from having to froth their false, corrupted crap!

....................you're welcome!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM

Its funny. I was brought up and educated to treat any vandalism and crime that way. We have all been conditioned to look the other way. Not to report crimes. Not demand justice. Not to trust justice. Not to trust government.

Certainly, OWS cannot demand accountability from the bankers if they do not demand it from each other. As with the violence being prevented, the first step for holding the banks to account is for witnesses to speak up.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

NOTHING beardedbruce said was mentioned in Don's post. If he was not defending bruce, he was at least taking the heat off bruce by blaming Brit Hume.

Can we please leave it at that?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:51 PM

My last post in the earlier thread- about the opening of this thread...


Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Good post, Guest TIA. I agree with all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:06 PM

Fuck me! WHAT is it you children do NOT understand? Leave it ALONE. Are youse brain dead? Are youse just fuckin stunned as me arse?

Read my lips... bb and gfs... get some manners and fuck off.

If you wanna contribute, great. If youse just wanna be complete assholes... read my lips.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:17 PM

Bruce. That is one of the reasons I chose that as the starting point of the new conversation. It seems to be a mature stance on the issue with which many of us can agree. I gave specifics of my opinion. Would you care to go the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Barb'ry
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:28 PM

Please don't let this discussion go down the pan as well. It is a genuinely interesting debate, particularly as those of us on 'the other side of the pond' get to hear more about what is really going on in America... so let's debate and not get another thread closed!

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:52 PM

Barb'ry... that's what I was sayin, albeit in a manner I thought might be understood by the posters I was addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:31 PM

It's all a joke...right?
The whole Western world is about to implode and you guys are fighting about a bunch of old hippys, students and the Tea Party!!!

Where is the unity?....nowhere to be seen.

You are all still wedded to your partisan politics...In most "liberal" minds, OWS is simply an antidote to the Tea Party; and I recognise these protesters, they have been seen on every left wing protest campaign since Adam was a boy.
I was even one of them in my "activist" days

Recognise what is happening please, this is not a game, not cricket, we are about to have the life squeezed out of us by the capitalist system.......no regulation nor General Assemblies of the converted can save us.

Time to get serious.....Forget your manufactured political differences and start connecting with each other....start by explaining to our young folks why we failed them, why we bought into the system and sold their future.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:34 PM

There are people who don't agree with the movement so they don't want it to be a civil discussion. They want the topic to be about them and they know that throwing stink bombs into the thread will disrupt the conversation. That's what they're doing and we recognize the strategy as their main technique.

Ignore their trolling and discuss the topic as if they weren't here.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:43 PM

Ake... gee whiz... I seldom agree with you or your ways that you "say it" but I do this time to an extent.

Let us not forget that peaceful protests in the US "recently" lead to a victory by the masses in the US. Unfortunately, there were four dead in Ohio before things got changed. When the bullets flew, the rich backed off and for good reason. I wish the OWS protesters would sing Ohio as a warning to the bastards that subjugate them and their brothers and sisters around the world.

Maybe if The Shat did his interpretation of Young's song at a rally? Sorry... couldn't resist that one. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:50 PM

For those who don't know what happened at Kent State University... google it.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:57 PM

I don't agree with any of you except for the tactics proposed by SRS, even then I think we will do better to maturely engage than ignore. The approach proposed in the opening of this thread are, I think, most effective in dealing with vandals or trolls.

This is not 1969. Certainly protestors and police have learned from those lessons. G20 and other protestors have been infiltrated by police and provocateurs even in nominally civilized places like Quebec, Vancouver and Seattle.

I think the kids doing this protesting are doing a brilliant job of shining light on the problems and opening up the conversation. I agree with SRS because she seems to be saying that it is our responsibility not to let the conversation devolve into "he said vs he said" over inane comparisons to bad actors of the past.

Maybe we should endeavor to steer the conversation away from metaphor and toward what is happening now.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:00 PM

Here is a side topic which may deserve its own thread but could certainly be discussed on this thread.

Tuesday's elections. Has the Rupublican/Tea Party tide turned? The Republican anti-union efforts were defeated in Ohio. Democrats were elected in Kentucky. How much of this is due to the OWS movement?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

I knew you weren't a lost cause gnu.......:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:03 PM

Has the Rupublican/Tea Party tide turned?

In a word: No. Good proportion of the bible-beating "conservative"[sic] boobocracy still loves 'em.

Next question. (But this probably should, as you suggest, be a separate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:05 PM

Greg F, Unwavering Republicans are about 25% of the electorate. The tide rolls back and forth over the center of the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:06 PM

I still ain't sure about you ake. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:07 PM

We could talk about how or if OWS has taken the media's attention from the Tea Party manufactured deficit scare and put it on theft, mismanagement and corruption where it belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:15 PM

That's exactly it Jack. OWS has changed the national conversation.
Look back one year, and see how many newspaper articles or TV talk shows spent any time on wealth inequality in the USA. Not much at all.
Now we've got people talking about it. If nobody even talks about the real problems, they will never get fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:22 PM

The rich were winning the PR war. Silly accusations of "Class Warfare" were repeated in the press like holy writ.

Now, that has decreased, a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 10:28 PM

If we are speaking of the stuff that the rich can control, yes, they are winning the PR battle... They own 100% of Big Media down to the ads that run...

They don't own the internet... Yet...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:15 AM

gnu: "Fuck me! WHAT is it you children do NOT understand? Leave it ALONE. Are youse brain dead? Are youse just fuckin stunned as me arse?
Read my lips... bb and gfs... get some manners and fuck off.
If you wanna contribute, great. If youse just wanna be complete assholes... read my lips."

Manners????
I take it then if someone doesn't agree with the direction of a movement, that you like..that they don't have manners???????

That's rude!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: John P
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 07:36 PM

One of the things I like about the OWS movement is the short, easy to remember, and damning slogan. "We are the 99%". Everyone who isn't rich or Republican can feel that resonate as they watch their savings dwindle, their kids not finding jobs, and their peers at work being downsized.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:04 PM

GfS... keep diggin... let's see how deep ya can shovel shit on yerself.

Once more... ya got anything ta contribute to the discussion besides crap and spew?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:16 PM

Yo, gn-ze...

Think Tea Partier here... She hates the government because it is the government and not because it has been corrupted by the rich...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:24 PM

Leave her alone Gnu, ain't it obvious she was born on a raft? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:39 PM

I would love to leave it alone and I will... GfS actually qoted me saying those EXACT words. Problem is, GfS didn't contribute... just shovelled shit.

And, now, I shall say gnightgnu, as I often do after I have made my point, supported (it is to laugh, if it wasn't so sad) by those that I have pointed out. I really don't think I can contribute any more than those who will carry on this thread. I just hope this thread is not closed by trolls being nasty... even tho it began early on.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:45 PM

She's clueless, Gn-ze... Leave her the heck alone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:17 AM

99% Time Person of the Year?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:32 AM

Do you guys really live in a bubble, or have you never heard of "trickle down" economics?

The system depends on greed and inequality to drive itself.

Watch my lips! It is impossible to regulate Global Capitalism, or any other form of Capitalism in todays world, given a population with our expectations,

The 99% are as guilty and complicit as the 1%

I'm a builder, and I watched in disbelief as everyone hocked themselves up to the neck to scrabble up yhe property ladder.....and in most cases it wasn't stupidity, It was pure greed, the chance to make a few dollars and always at the expense of the REAL poor.

I'm afaid we suffer from an infection wich wont respond to aspirin.
Which is the remedy being prescribed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:59 AM

MSNBC:

A woman wielding an "exacto razor blade attached to a pen or pencil-like object" slashed one officer as police tried to keep marchers at the Embarcadero near Broadway from blocking the intersection where light rail tracks are located.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 09:47 AM

Uh huh. And having mentioned that, what IS your point?

###############################################

To the rest of you: it's fairly obvious that a few people do their best to have threads of this nature shut down. The longer you engage with them the more vituperative the thread becomes. IGNORE them, completely. They will then stand out like the lone nudists at a football game. Getting angry back just makes you wear the shit they're slinging. IGNORE THEM!

You have stuff to post about the good being done by the 99ers, post it. People ranting and you ranting back means you're losing the plot. IGNORE THEM. Ignore trhem, and their posts will be deleted, not the entire thread closed. WTF cares what they say? WAKE UP ffs.

imo

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:47 AM

Hmmm- whaddaya s'pose a "pencil-like object" IS, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:56 AM

Bankers Looting the Country While Obama Turns a Blind Eye

Banks took all that bailout money and didn't increase lending, because Congress didn't add even minimal strings to the cash.

And we've certainly noticed that the president has pulled in $15.6 million from Wall Street for his own campaign and the Democratic party. That's why we Occupy!

    The largest banks are larger than they were when Obama took office and are nearing the level of profits they were making before the depths of the financial crisis in 2008, according to government data.

    Wall Street firms   independent companies and the securities-trading arms of banks are doing even better. They earned more in the first 2 1/2 years of the Obama administration than they did during the eight years of the George W. Bush administration, industry data show.

      Behind this turnaround, in significant measure, are government policies that helped the financial sector avert collapse and then gave financial firms huge benefits on the path to recovery. For example, the federal government invested hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in banks low-cost money that the firms used for high-yielding investments on which they made big profits.

    "There’s a very popular conception out there that the bailout was done with a tremendous amount of firepower and focus on saving the largest Wall Street institutions but with very little regard for Main Street," said Neil Barofsky, the former federal watchdog for the Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP, the $700 billion fund used to bail out banks. "That’s actually a very accurate description of what happened."

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

There is a certain profound stupidity in the right wing opposition to the movement. A woman trips on a step, a minor incident, here and there and they try to make us think it is armed insurrection.

A little perspective and balance is in order. But the so called right in this country is not known for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:22 AM

I have one of those objects, Greg. It's got a handle that is gold-coloured and a blade on it like #11 in the following link. I used it for fine cutting of leather, cloth, skin (when I get the odd splinter), paper and a few other things. The blade is very sharp and about 1 1/4" in length.

http://www.tedpella.com/dissect_html/549-9-scalpels.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:38 AM

"the right wing opposition to the movement"

What makes you think the right wing is opposed to the movement?

Have you ever asked anybody or investigated on your own?

Could it be that the assumtpion comes from the movement itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:39 AM

They earned more in the first 2 1/2 years of the Obama administration than they did during the eight years of the George W. Bush administration, industry data show.

Probably true!(Source??) And all due to the policies and legislation of the BuShites, preceeded by the Reaganoids, wch, with an obstructionist Republican cadre in both branches of the legislature, the Obama Administration has so far been unable to reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:32 PM

>>What makes you think the right wing is opposed to the movement?

Have you ever asked anybody or investigated on your own?<<<

Yes. I have.

Part of my investigation is a known "right" wing reactionary posting an insignificant tidbit attributed to MSNBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:14 PM

The homophobic football coach gets canned at Penn State and the students riot and throw rocks at police and overturn cars. They get off easy.

OWS resists peacefully and get the crap beaten out of them by cops.

What's wrong with this picture?

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM

"Do you guys really live in a bubble, or have you never heard of "trickle down" economics?"

What century to you live in, Ake? Who here has NOT heard of "trickle down" economics? That was Reagan's big economic slogan. Even AT THE TIME, people were saying, "If you actually do feel something trickling down, that's because there's someone standing on a huge pile of money and he's peeing on your head!"

Don't ask silly questions!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Occupy Wall Street; The 99%
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:33 PM

"What's wrong with this picture?"

I think I'm immune to the picture, Frank, having watched it with minor variations for most of my life. SSDD