Folklore: Odd pub names

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:32 AM

Back in the late 70's, when I was living in Thetford, in Norfolk, there was a pub located in what was supposed to be the birthplace of Thomas Paine called, fittingly, The Rights of Man.

    Good place. A free house with some of the old pub games.

    Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Micca
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

Schantieman, "The Royal Standard of England" at Beaconsfield also claims to be the oldest pub!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

Martha Grimes wrote "The case has Altered" and we have a pub in Bolton called "Sally Up Steps" but can't find any history on why it should be called so. I must call in and ask one day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Neighmond
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:31 PM

My great, great etc. great grandparents ran an inn near Prophitt's Crossing (Sp?) that was called the Lion and the Lamb...pretty common name I am told. Their kids had one called the Broken Drum and They had a nephew that ran one called the Blue Yodel someplace down south. I can't tell you if any are still open.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: BanjoRay
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:23 PM

The Dynevor Arms, Pantyffynnon near Ammanford in South Wales is a good one. It's always known locally as the Tenby, because a charabanc trip to the seaside town only made it as far as this pub, back in the twenties. Details of this superb pub are here.
The Bell Hagg near Sheffield lost its name briefly a few years back - it became the John Thomas. I wonder why they changed it back? Maybe somebody told them what it meant.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: mouldy
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:32 AM

Schantieman - no he wasn't outside on his own, and he got his share of the draught Bass when we got home.

There is/was a pub in Wakefield called the "Tut'n'Shive", part of a chain of the Tap 'n' Spile type of thing. The term is used in the building trade for a bit of a bodged up job, I think, and there were all sorts of odd joinery, plumbing and hardware effects in the place, including doors on the ceiling. My abiding memory of it is seeing Castleford Longsword standing in a circle sharing a half-pint glass of a 9% beer because, even though they were going to share it, the jobsworth behind the bar said she wasn't allowed to serve that one in more than half pints. They'd only wanted a bit each to try, but a half between about 8 men...

Andrea

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Bert
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:44 AM

Thanks Dave,

I knew about the Elephant and Castle but not about The Angel.

Manitas, thanks for the update on The Princess Alice. I'm glad it didn't die for ever.

And as a kid, I used to live in a flat just across the road from The Eagle and Child. Us kids shared a front bedroom and were often woken up by the drunks rolling home at chucking out time. We'd go to the window and watch them reeling up the street singing. Ah! precious memories.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:58 AM

Folkies may not know that Bob Copper was once the landlord (in the mid 50's) of the pub with England's shortest name -The 'H.H' Inn, Cheriton, Hampshire. HH stood for Hampshire Hunt, and the name is still on the building, long since converted to a private residence...indeed for a while it served as a Bat Hospital...yes that's right, when the injured nocturnals had flying accidents they were taken there to recover. It was in this beautiful area of Hamshire that Bob collcted some fine songs from some remarkable people and thus formed the basis of his book 'Songs and Southern Breezes'.

Sorry, I digress but I wonder how many 'oldest' and how many 'smallest' pubs there are in England? I've visited two that claim these distinctions...Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem (oldest, in Nottingham) and The Nutshell (smallest, in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk). Now let's wait for further claimants!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: HuwG
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 04:42 AM

Dave Bryant and Bert, the "Elephant and Castle" is a corruption of the "Infanta de Castilla", which is how Catherine of Aragon was known before she became first Mrs. Arthur, Prince of Wales, then Mrs. Henry VIII.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Shuffer
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 04:46 AM

There is a pub called "The Pelican in her Piety" at Ogmore in South Wales, History of the name and the local area can be found on their website http://www.pelicanpub.co.uk/

Good food, good beer and a roaring logfire just right after walking the dog on the beach on a cold winter's Sunday morning.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:19 AM

Actually, HH is by no means the shortest pub name. Many East Anglian towns with large numbers of pubs seem to have got fed up with giving them names at all and started calling them simply by a single letter.

Whittlesey, for example, had an "A", a "B" and a "C". Though latterly they were usually referred to as "The Letter A" etc, the pub signs and the names were originally simply the one letter. In Whittlesey, only the Letter B survived into the 1990s and the last landlord / landlady renamed it the "Bee" a few years ago.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Schantieman
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

Andrea: Glad to hear the baby got his share of the Bass! Is he now a confirmed addict?

There is a claimant to the 'Smallest Pub in England' near here, in Southport. Called the Lakeside Inn (coz it's guess where) it has good beer too. It has been demonstrated to be big enough for Longsord and Rapper dancing - and a small audience too - so is probably not actually the smallest!

Steve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM

"The Hole In The Wall", Colchester, also claims to be the smallest ... room for 6 people standing.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

HuwG,

Another possible origin of the Elephant & Castle is that it derives from the arms of the Cutlers Company.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,The Fantum
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:00 AM

The Kicking Cuddy in Coxhoe Co Durham
A cuddy is a horse

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:44 AM

Manitas: The Cutlers co. Coat of Arms dates from after Henry VIII and so maybe the derivation works the other way

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:55 AM

Nigel

You're probably wrong, nonetheless. Apparently, the word Infanta wasn't used in English until 1600 and your story dosn't explain the inevitable Howdah on the pub sign.

Here's a useful comment ...

... it's often asserted that the name is a corruption of Infanta de Castile, usually said to be a reference to Eleanor of Castile, the wife of Edward I (in Spain and Portugal, the infanta was the eldest daughter of the monarch without a claim to the throne). That would put Elephant and Castle in the same class of pub name as those I mentioned two weeks ago but, like the story of the way Goat and Compasses came into being, it's almost certainly false.

Not the least of the problems is that Eleanor of Castile wasn't an infanta (or at least wasn't known as that - the term only appeared in English about 1600); the one infanta that the British have heard about from school history lessons is Maria, a daughter of Philip III of Spain, who was once controversially engaged to Charles I. But she had no connection with Castile. The form Infanta de Castile seems to be a conflation of vague memories of two Iberian royal women separated by 300 years.

The castle here is actually a howdah on the back of the elephant, in India a seat traditionally used by hunters. The public house called the Elephant and Castle was converted about 1760 from a smithy that had had the same name and sign. This had connections with the Cutlers' Company, a London craft guild founded in the 13th century which represented workers who made knives, scissors, surgical instruments and the like. The guild used the same emblem. The link here is the Indian elephant ivory used for knife handles, in which the Cutlers' Company dealt.

The real story here is actually rather more interesting than the one usually told, but a lot more British people have heard of an infanta from history lessons than know about the medieval emblem of a trade guild.

;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Larkin
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:03 AM

There's the cat and Fiddle in the Peak District and The Swan with Two Nicks in Knutsford and I seem to remember that there's also a Swan with Two Necks somewhere in Cheshire and it's obviously a corruption of Two Nicks ( The marks put on the beak for identification??)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:08 AM

Swan Upping

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:46 AM

In Friedberg (Hessen), Germany, the oldest pub existing on the main and market street is Die Dunkel = The Dark One. You enter the pub through a gothic portal (first recorded 1333), down some steps into a narrow long room with no window. Hence the name.
Home cooking, excellent local beer. Irish (and other) singers welcome.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Schantieman
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

The Trip to Jerusalem dates from the 13th century, I think, so it beats Die Dunkel (although that may be the oldest in Germany!) but come to think of it, isn't there an older one in Nottingham itself? The Salutation Inn, if memory serves.

The Hole in the Wall is obviously smaller than the Lakeside Inn.


Steve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:59 AM

I knew we'd been here before. See also Name That Pub (bar)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:02 AM

The Skirrid Inn (Wales)would seem to pre-date Ye Old Trip To Jerusalem. But I suppose you're looking for the oldest pub in England, Not U.K.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Although it's not as small as some of the pubs mentioned "The Little Gem" (I don't think it was named after the lettuce !) in Aylesford village, Kent is quite small. At least it's large enough for Linda and myself to sing in, with a small audience as well.

The link to Swan Upping was quite interesting - I used to go up the Thames with them on my boat and we had some good sessions in some of the pubs. The landlord of "The Two Brewers" at Shoreham, Kent (now no longer a pub) used to be a member of the crew of the Vintner's "Hat" boat.

Wrotham, Kent, has a pub called "The Three Postboys" which I haven't seen elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:17 PM

There was talk not long since that the Bell Hagg was up for sale and doomed to become bijou residences, but I don't know what the current state of affairs is. Dark rumours about the last(?) landlord, anyway.

I was forgetting The Q on the Corner, which was in Paradise Square in Sheffield. It's long since been converted to offices, but worth a mention if only as an historical note; the famous Blind Fiddlers used to meet there in the late 18th/ early 19th century.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Train Guard
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:46 PM

Nothing to do with a race horse!

   "In the course of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the greater part of the property in this area of Manchester was acquired by the Mynshull family. Barbara Nabb, the widow of Thomas Samuel Mynshull, became the sole heiress of this estate upon his death in 1755. One fateful day in 1769, she attended the fashionable Kersal races and met Roger Aytoun. 'Spanking Roger' (after his pugnacious manners, and not a reference to some personal habit!), six foot four inches of a handsome physique in military uniform, swept the lady off her feet. Less than one month after this meeting, the young Scotsman and the sixty-five year old widow were married in the Collegiate Church.
    Aytoun nourished a military career. With some financial assistance from his wife, he raised his own regiment, the 72nd Regiment of Foot (Manchester Volunteers) to serve in the latter stages of the American War of Independence. He paraded the Manchester streets with a watch pinned to a banner, promising it to the day's first recruit. Other times he would challenge likely candidates to a fight – on the understanding that they would enlist if he won! The local archive still preserves a poster advertising a football match as a recruiting ploy. The Manchester Volunteers never went to America. Instead, they formed part of the garrison of Gibraltar, which was then besieged by the Spanish. The long siege produced conditions of great privation, and members of the regiment were driven to desertion and suicide. Nevertheless, Gibraltar was held.
    Aytoun returned to Manchester as a hero, but then revealed a dark side to his nature. Barbara died in 1783. Roger had squandered the entire family fortune by 1792, and had mortgaged the landed property. His debts were reduced (!) to over £11,000 by 1797, and finally cleared by the sale of Chorlton Hall. But Aytoun had already left Manchester for pastures new. He married another heiress in his native Scotland in 1794, and died a rich man in 1810! His entangled affairs resulted in land sales that led to a rash of speculative building on the south side of the town."

    I've pasted a passage from 'Discovering Manchester', a guide book 'wot i wrote', and available from Sigma leisure.

   Hurry while stocks last!

Regards,
   Train Guard

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Train Guard
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

The Prestwich pub is a combination of the names of two former pubs. One was called the Railway, and probably originated round about 1879 when the railway through Prestwich was being built. The other would have been the headquarters of the amateur (working class) naturalists who visited Prestwich Clough (an attractive wooded area that still exists) in the late nineteenth century.

   Regards,
    Train Guard

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Train Guard
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM

Particularly common in Lancashire, where property was owned by the Stanley family, Earls of Derby - the family crest is an Eagle and Child. It relates to a family legend in which one of their offspring was stolen from his cradle by an eagle, but fortunately retrieved safely.

Regards,
   Train Guard

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: conan the blackburnian
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM

There wasa pub in Blyth called the Burglars dog alocal euphemism for an ugly woman

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:04 PM

Alas, the Smiths' Arms in Godmanstone,Dorset, is no longer a pub... it did for a while hold the record as the smallest PUB being almost 6 sq inches smaller than the Acorn. There are smaller bars in pubs, but this was the whole pub, bar included.

Also in Dorset is a delightful place called 'Knights in the Bottom', also a pub, in a dip along a lovely road between Chickerell and Abbotsbury.


Martha Grimes - that was it.... There's another one about a fox too. Must get round to reading them again.


LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

Interesting about Roger Aytoun, Trainguard. Spanking Roger (Racehorse) Dam - Jolly Roger, foaled 1759. No mention of when Spanking Roger (Also a mare btw) was foaled but Roger Aytoun was at Kersal races in 1769! Coincidence? I think not... I wonder whether the horse was named after him or he got theidea from the horse?

The other thing. I looked into the piece of music by the same name. Written by James Nuttall of Rossendale. See this for further details. It seems James' father, John, was co-founder of a music 'club' in Rossendale on 1742. John was minister at Goodshaw Baptist Chapel until his death in 1792. James wrote the tune 'Spanking Roger' and I wonder why the son of a Baptist minister would name a tune after either a racehorse or a gambling (and womanising apparatly!) soldier?

I have not been able to pin down the tune but the Wrapper Band list it amongst their favourites here.

So, we come full circle. A Thread with no apparant music content has some after all! I think should be now counted as a classic!

(Are you listening, Joe...;-))

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

Anyone know the Spanking Roger tune btw? Should I start a new thread?

DtG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

I used to go to one in Essex (Corringham) called The Cat Cracker. Nothing feline, it was an oil refinery term.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: mouldy
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:50 AM

The Salutation in Nott'm isn't as old as the Trip, which goes back to 1189, and was reputed to be a watering hole for the crusaders. (Schantieman - the offspring now drinks mainly lager or vodka: where did we go wrong?)
The Sally is 13th or 14th century, I think. Both are in the Castle area, but of course you couldn't really get much closer than the Trip is! There was another pub just down from the Sally called The "Royal Children" and some used to say it referred to the Princes in the Tower.
A village a few miles outside Nott'm (Lowdham) has a pub called the "World's End". Then there's the "Bramley Apple" across from Southwell Minster. The Bramley was first grown in Southwell, and I think it may have been in the garden of the pub itself (before it was a pub). If not, it was in one of the nearby gardens.

Andrea

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:31 AM

The Muscular Arms in Exchange Square Glasgow plus a pub in the protestant part of Airdrie/Coatbridge called by it's nickname 'Lucky C*nt Murphy's'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM

And then there's the "Antigallican" in Charlton, London SE - a reference to anti-French sentiment during the Revolution and after. There's supposed to be another "Antigalican" in Plaistow or thereabouts, but I've not seen it, nor have I come across the name elsewhere.

There is (was) a pub in Holland-on-sea, Clacton, called the "Roaring Donkey" which name always intrigued me.

Alan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

My understanding is that the "Antigallican" was the name of a ship. The Charlton pub sign shows a ship. I don't know of an "Antigallican" in Plaistow, London - perhaps its Plaistow Green near Bromley or Plaistow in Kent?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 10:04 AM

As far as I know, an Antigallican was a generic name for a ship built to fight the French - or a person who advocated it. Perhaps Doug Hudson would qualify !

There's a pub between Chelmsford and Maldon just called "Cats".

There's a pub on the River Cam between Ely and Cambridge called
"The Five Miles from Anywhere No Hurry Inn".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 10:29 AM

The " Antigallacian" was also the name of a 'Newspaper' during the Napolionic Wars.

Tho speaking personally - remember - The French have never honoured any treaty that has not been enforced by the :-
Welsh Long Bow,
A British Broadside,
or
A Prussian Bayonet.

I challenge any Catter of historical bent to dispute this !

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Ian
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 04:19 AM

The Romping Donkey see early ref was the nick name of I think THE RED LION it was just that the picture on the sign looked nothing like a lion. At one time a new landlord tried to change the sign but was forced to return it

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 04:39 AM

I know of several pubs officially named "The Black Swan" which are informally known as "The Dirty Duck".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:19 AM

The former Black Swan in Stratford-upon-Avon has officially been the dirty duck for some time now.

Local signpainters were often no Michelangelos: there are several "Romper"s in Cheshire, which were originally Red or White or Golden Lions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:43 AM

There used to be a pub called the "Spread Eagle" in Hollingworth (it has since changed its name); the artwork on its sign featured a Romanov (Czarist Russian) double-headed eagle.

It attracted several local names during its chequered history: "The Skipping Chicken"; "The Tandoori Chicken"; "The KFC"; "The Squashed Budgie"; "The Roadkill Eagle" (or just "The Roadkill"); "The Flat-chested Bird"; etc.



The "Trap" (which was at one time a rather notorious den of iniquity) was known as the "Pony and Trap", in an odd piece of reverse rhyming slang (you can work out for yourselves what that phrase rhymes with). It was not entirely myth that the carpets there were so filthy with spilled drink that your shoes stuck to them. [It has since been redecorated, and has cleaned up its act].


----

Note to US and other non-British 'Catters: Public houses in Britain are represented in tourist books and Hollywood genre Sherlock Holmes films as being all tradition and olde tyme musick (sic). In fact there is not nearly as much continuity as one might think. If the pub is a "tied" house i.e. is owned or controlled by a brewery, the brewers will change tenants usually at the rate of every two years. Breweries often will force name changes and new decor and other gimmicks on the place, with each change of tenant.

"Free" houses are obviousy less vulnerable to the whims of a brewing interest, but the drawback here is that they may change their suppliers at little notice, and the beer [NOT the lager] may swing from being nectar to being poisonous with worrying rapidity. Still, they are often the best places to drink.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: jimlad
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:58 AM

Around here,Bolton UK,pub mames are often known by names derived from the signs hanging outside thus...

The Golden Lion-----------The Brass Cat
Black Swan----------------The Dirty Duck.
Eagle and Child-----------The Bird and Bastard
Dog and Partridge---------Dog and Duck


The above are obvious some are not....

The Kings Arms-----------The Canary(we are in a coal mining area and
                                    the miners had Canaries
Lawsons Arms-------------Three Pigeons(Coat of arms of the Lawsons)

Stanley Arms--------------Sally-up-Steps(Sally was a 19c Landlady)

The last three names have been changed by the breweries from the former to the latter to satisfy us natives.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,Tábhairne
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 11:11 AM

There is a pub in Newry, Co.Armagh, n.Ireland called The Brass Monkey and has a big picture of a brass coloured monkey on the outside.

Pretty unusual, but it just comes from the saying to describe cold weather, "it would freeze the b*l*s off a brass monkey".
A brass monkey was acutually the device used for holding cannon balls in times past and when it became really cold, the brass would contract and the cannon balls would fall off!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 12:29 PM

There is a Mudcat thread HERE which tended to debunk that definition of Brass Monkey - post any further discussion on that topic there.

Two pubs in the Plumstead/Bexleyheath area were known by the ladies who had owned them in my parents' day.

"The White Horse" Wickham Lane was known as "The Fanny on the Hill". When it was rebuilt twenty odd years ago, the name was included on the sign, but I think it has been dropped now.

"The Royal Oak", Mount Rd, Bexleyheath, still has a small sign proclaiming it as "The Polly Cleanstairs" - my mother told me that the original landlady had been a skivvy until she came into some money.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 12:50 PM

Hope it didn't drop on anyone's head! ;-)

We've got a pub in Southport called the Up Steps, which has several of them outside the front door. Beer's good, but it's a bit smoky.

Now I'm off to see about this brass monkey......I always thought is was a shot garland....

Steve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM

I've just remembered The Shirley Poppy, called after the flower of that name. That's Shirley in Croydon, where that strain of poppy was bred, not one of the other ones.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 11:28 PM

Leave Town on the Horse You Came in On pub in Fell's Point, Baltimore MD. U.S.ofA.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Odd pub names
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:10 AM

When Harold Wilson was Prime Minister he was also MP for Huyton Liverpool and a pub there was named The Pipe and Gannexe after his style of dress.

In Ormskirk there was a pub called The Kicking Donkey and I used to know of one called The Eureka but can't remember where.

The Eagle & Child On East Precot Rd Liverpool was known affectionally as The Buzard & Bastard

There was also a pub in Liverpool named The Cockwell Inn but not to sure if that was its official name.

Drank once in London in The Case is Altered.