BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

One more vote for McCain's best moment, "you're not running against George Bush." But his statement on woman's health and abortions was apalling. To paraphrase: "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!".
As it happens, this is the first time I have actually sat watching McCain in person for anything like this much time. His facial expressions, much of the time, looked like something a very twisted person would subconciously carve on jack-o-lanterns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should vbe in out Treasury DEpartment. We need folks like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Dick Greenhaus said,

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should be in out Treasury Department. We need folks like that.

Nice thought, Dick, and clever, but on thinking it over, we don't know what he's been doing in plumbing. He may have been a highly-paid manager in a big plumbing company, now looking to buy his boss out. He may have inherited a pile of money, so he has a big down payment. He may have a sweetheart deal with the preexisting owner which allows him to pay off most of the "time payment" out of the profits over a period of years, which is not too unusual. That sort of thing can be very attractive to a seller of a business, for tax reasons.

But it's clear that Joe Plumber doesn't illustrate or establish the point McCain wanted to use him for.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that.

I know that in the UK the health ground for abortion, which was introduced on a general understanding it meant cases where there was grave risk to the life of the mother, has in practice been interpreted far more widely.

Though I'd be inclined to see McCain's priorities here as more founded on a wish to appease his electoral base rather than on any particular principal. I am sure he'd have no difficulty at all in arguing in the opposite direction if it was required.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

The real Joe the Plumber hopes top someday buy a business that will make 250K, but isn't anywhwere near it right now, and is not actually a licensed plumber OR registered to vote. Yet despite this, he wants to get his message out that in his mind, Obama's tax plan might someday hurt him. He sounds a bit unrealistic, and was certainly yet another bad choice for a cartoon icon by John McCain who seems to enjoy playing with symbokls instead of real polciies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Here's the first two paragraphs about "Joe" from the Washington Post report above:

Joe the Plumber is not exactly a plumber, he's "not even close" to making the kind of money that would result in higher taxes from Democrat Barack Obama's proposals and has such an aversion to taxes that a lien was filed against him by the state of Ohio.

Such is the whirlwind of information that has come out about Joe Wurzelbacher of Holland, Ohio, since Republican John McCain made him famous in last night's debate. McCain mentioned him more than 20 times to use him as a symbol of hard-working Americans who would be hurt by Obama's tax policies. Obama and Wurzelbacher met earlier in the week in Toledo, where Wurzelbacher said Obama's plans to raise taxes on those making $250,000 a year or more would penalize him in his plans to buy the plumbing business for which he works.

Interesting! May not be worth a song.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:01 PM

Seems like he's exactly the sort of person who will benefit from Obama's tax plan. And more than likely, he'll benefit substantially more from Obama's plan than from McCain's plan.

In fact, he's exactly the sort of person Obama was telling him about... the people who are making less money now, who will save more on their taxes under the Obama tax plan than under the McCain plan, and who will be able to buy the business sooner than they would be able to under the McCain tax plan.

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

"What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that."

Kevin, what the transcript doesn't tell you, but we all saw on TV, was that McCain made the "air-quote" gesture while speaking the word "health" in a snide tone of voice, with a lift of the eyebrow and a pause before and after ~ the exact non-verbal equivalent of interjecting an expression like "bullshit."

Now, that extra sentence about "you liberals..." was, indeed, a bit of an exaggeration, but one that fairly accurately depicts McCain's tone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

The two items that McCain flippantly dismissed were "Health of the Mother" and "Safe Nuclear Waste Disposal". Both topic deserve more discusstion than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

(it seems that Joe the plumber AND his boss both lack local licenses to practice plumbing...not relevant to the debate, but fascinating side issue.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/the-joe-the-plumber-story_b_135319.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

and..oh my!


"... Joe Wurzelbacher is apparently related to Robert Wurzelbacher. Who is the son-in-law of (are you ready...?) Charles Keating!

Yes, that Charles Keating. The Charles Keating of the Keating 5 Scandal. For which John McCain was reprimanded by the United States Senate, for his involvement in attempting to illegally influence government regulators. The Charles Keating who John McCain has been trying to avoid have mentioned."

more...lots more..here

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

Joe Wurzelbacher, yet another person not completely vetted before bringing them into the McCain campaign. Sheesh, they really are not very good at taking care of the details.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM

I bet they've never heard of the game (or play) "Six Degrees of Separation."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM

I see I was 2 minutes behind heric in noting that item. But I did make a blue clicky!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

And a beautiful blue clicky it was, but this story is moving too fast:

"Andrew Sullivan has issued a correction on this story. There are TWO Charles M.Wurzelbachers -- Keatings' son-in-law was 37 in 1991, while the Ohio Charles is 83 years old."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM

Another subject that McCain was dismissive about during last night's debate human rights violations that have led to the death of labor leaders in Columbia. That was the reason Obama gave for voting against that trade agreement with that Latin American nation.

McCain brushed off Obama's comments about the lack of basic worker protections in that nation and repeated his talking points about how much money US workers {or somebody in the USA} could have made had that agreement passed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

You can search the Ohio Construction Industry licensing board online.
It comes up with the last name Wurzelbacher for only one person in Ohio, Lawrence Wurzelbacher. His license expired in 2002.
There is no Joe Wurzelbacher. Does anyone know if Joe goes by the name Lawrence?

Go to:
http://elicense1-lookup.com.ohio.gov/SearchCriteria.asp

You"ll need to enter:
Board: Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board
Last Name: Wurzelbacher
State: Ohio

you don't have to fill in all the fields

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

geez, there is already a wikipedia page about Joe the Plumber!

'Wurzelbacher likened Obama to Sammy Davis, Jr. in an interview with Katie Couric of CBS Evening News immediately after the October 15, 2008 presidential debate. Of his encounter with Obama in Holland, Ohio, Wurzelbacher told Couric: "I asked the question but I still got a tap dance…almost as good as Sammy Davis, Jr."

yuk

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM

From the Wikipedia page, this info reveals some things about Joe the plumber that may get him in some hot water ;-)

---------

"In his interview on ABC's Good Morning America on October 16, Wurzelbacher stated that his two current plumbing jobs were for a gas station and for a shopping center, Levis Commons. Both are commercial enterprises. [6]

This small firm is the business Wurzelbacher described to Obama as making more than $250,000 per year.[8] According to MSNBC, "While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that." [9]

The county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, does require plumbers who perform work including sanitary drainage, water supply, storm drainage, and natural gas piping, to have licenses.[10] Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

""While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that."

You're damn straight it would be even less than that. Total revenues do not include wages, materials, office expenses, transportation, health care, or any of another dozen items. I strongly suspect that with a total gross revenue of $100,000 in the plumbing business you'd be lucky to take home a quarter of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM

With a name like "Wurzelbacher" there could be quite a few ways of spelling it and misspelling it.

......................

The most alarming bit in the debate when McCain said that wanting nuclear power plants "to be safe" was an "extreme position". Wow!:

"We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess.

Sen. Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

Okay, I smelled this rat in real time. I've been running a small business for 16 years. We celebrate when we break even at year end. A profit of $250,000 in one year would be unheard of in my business and all related businesses that I deal with. As we watched, I asked my wife and business partner why the hell we're doing this instead of plumbing!

BTW, I *am* the engine of job creation that McCain-Palin screech about, and I am damn sure not voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM

We have a small (very small) business, and we will do very well under the Obama plan. Both as individuals, as well as business owners. Our business will not be taxed for capital gains (yay!) and we'll get a 50% tax credit to provide our employees (me and JtS) with health insurance. And we'll get a big tax cut on our personal income taxes.

Sounds good to me!

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

The debate swayed at least one undecided voter to Obama. Had a client who was undecided arrive a little late today because she went to vote early. The debate last night convinced her to vote for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM

It's quite fascinating to watch these bloggers working at lightning speed, beating out the more professional news orgs, and getting cited by the lesser news orgs with less exacting standards. They get the scoop, but then have to apologize and modify.

On one of skarpi's Iceland threads, Emma B tracked down what seemed to be the original source of blogged news that was inflaming the sentiments of Icelanders, such as an alleged mob attack on the Iceland embassy, while no one else could find any reference to it in google news sources.

One can imagine some harm resulting from a wave of emotion caused by temporary misinformation (although it would have to occur very quickly.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

As Azizi 12:07 PM and Amos 2:13 PM (Trailhead link) note, Joe's name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, (obviously of German descent (Wurzel: root, Bach: brook).

Amos' link also points out that Joe is such a strong tax opponent he's already been in hot water with the state of Ohio--lien by Ohio against him for $1,182.98. I have a copy of the docket record by the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, Toledo Ohio.

I wonder how closely McCain wants to be linked to such a tax protestor. Or maybe he's making a play for the Libertarian votes.

And as others have noted, Joe is not remotely close enough to $250,000/ yr. profit to be affected--especially since he's not even a registered plumber, nor does he have the money to be buying a company any time soon. And he himself has stated this.

He sounds more and more like a malcontent who thinks none too clearly. I wonder about the current status of Ohio's case against him. Has it been settled?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Bloomberg says the tax lien--back taxes-- is still active.

Perhaps such a high profile was not the best idea for Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

I'm also sure that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher has some regrets about the media exposure but he's also taking advantage of it by appearing on morning talk shows at the national level.

You reap what you sow!

Charley Noble