Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:30 AM

"Could you perhaps think of another cuss-word just for a change"
Second that - would only add, sexist and offensive.
Shows a definite lack of imagination
"you lose. You lose."
Ran into Simon Cowell at our local session last night - he says he's happy to put your name down on his list if you contact him
Any chance that you'll desist from making these discussions into a game-show - doubt it somehow?
Your obsession with "win and lose" places you right up there with the airheads - wonder which of your history books you picked this up from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:18 AM

A debate is won or lost Jim.
If you can not support your case, you lose.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:39 AM

"you lose."
That makes 20 times you've said this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:40 AM

No one supports terrorism.
Wild accusations, abuse and insults, but no debate.
You lose.
How many now Jim?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:14 AM

"I'm reading comments that offend the memory of a whole generation slaughtered without regard to them as humans"

Oddly enough Musket so am I.

I am reading idiotic and totally unfounded comments by complete and utter clowns who pour scorn and denigrate and disparage the moral values, patriotism and sense of duty of a whole generation who responded to their country's call to arms. Calling them all to a man, simpletons, idiots and fools who were too thick to know what they were doing - Damn right you are being offensive

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:24 AM

Mmmm... "Simpletons, idiots and fools." If you say so, although you would never hear me insult them like that.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:27 AM

"Prick" -- Makes a change, at least, Poppie.

I myself make it a principle, held for the last 4 years, to avoid that kind of locution, & that kind of abuse, on this forum, because it gets so very tedious, and IMO reflects pejoratively on the inventiveness, and the writing style, of the perpetrator. But such as you, who appear committed to such ways of going on*, and, lamentably IMO, incapable of expressing yourselves without such resort, would do well to vary your epithets and denunciatory terminology , sufficiently at least to enable the rest of us to remain awake whilst otherwise fully appreciating the cogency and effectiveness of the points with which you are so kind as to regale us, rather than bored into a state of unconquerably soporific ennui.

≈M≈

*[Did you, I wonder, as I have mentioned before, go on like this in the course of that brilliant career in public leadership of which you never tire of informing us?]

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:50 AM

Four years eh? So I can be a silver tongued fucker for the next seventy years and still frolick on the same moral high plane with you four years after that?

I'll tell you what me old footballer. Something about stones and glass houses before taking the piss eh?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

"You lose."
Twenty one and counting and you've still not provided evidence of a consensus
Simon Cowell beckons!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:02 AM

I have provided evidence of a consensus by posting lots of historians agreeing with me, and you have confirmed it by failing to find a single one who contradicts me.
Will you produce such a quote now?
If not, you lose.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

What about stones & glasshouses, Poppy? Have been on this forum 5 years, & sedulously avoided obscene abuse of the sort you are perpetually parroting for all but the first of those years. Where do 70 years come in? Were you as confused in all those exemplary years of such sterling public service as you appear to be just now, one must wonder? You really are a caution, my dear old dilli-billi-duckli-pooze. Why not try a nice hot cuppa* & then a nice long lie-down, my ickle sweeting?

≈M≈

*Vilely polluted with cow·juice if you must!

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 12:10 PM

Teribus, the world has moved on and you were left behind, that's all.

You're from a generation of military which was still under the thumb of the old school, and it shows. Since your day, the art of soldiering has moved on: you were trained in extreme force (I know, my very first exercise was the hunting force for green beret candidates) and nothing much else, most certainly not the level of control now required, not that finesse is an RM stock-in-trade even now. The teaching of avoiding the Red Fog of War came in in my time, not yours, c1977. In your time, nobody would have needed the kind of justification Blair had to fabricate for the Gulf War, he needed it because he needed to be able to convince the military top brass he was acting legally, and therefore they were too. The same thing works right down the tree: you rough up a prisoner, you end up in jail. In your day, it was normal (I know first-hand how you RMs worked in 1968, I bear the scar to this day). Tough tittie, that was then, this is now.

And that is why this is changing. We live in a world where the knowledgable living are far more valuable than the valiant dead, let alone what I have just shown was yet another lie from your school. You don't answer my points, you wriggle and twist and you're not worth arguing with, you're too old and mind-numbed to change. It's like arguing with a Crusader, all self-justification and gung-ho over-there. And as irrelevant to the world we now live in, were it not that your mindset actually creates the kind of jihadi extremist we're trying to stop. That makes you your own worst enemy and it's time for you to stop.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 12:13 PM

If Keith were any use, he'd recognise that he might be agreeing with his sources, rather than the other way around. A long list of historians following him? Just possibly, his case officer trying to plumb the depths of his megalomania.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 12:40 PM

Ragere, I have stated over and over that I formed my views by reading the Historians.
Tim, and Steve have different opinions that are contradicted by Historians.

On the history of WWI, I believe the Historians know more than those three.
What do you think Ragere?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:14 PM

"On the history of WWI, I believe the Historians know more than those three."
You appar to be getting in a right mess with your historians, but keep it up - all good entertainment value
"you lose."
Twenty three on both threads now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:50 PM

No one has yet found a Historian who supports you or contradicts me.
That is because there are none.
You can not produce any evidence in support of your case so obviously, you lose.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM

Unless you people can produce anything other than assertion and abuse, I am done with this.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

Let's see now... The rest of what Keith's precious "historians" say plus what the other 99% of historians say plus the evidence amply available to form your own opinions.

There. That's enough to be getting on with.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 03:30 AM

There has been a GUEST posting (26 Nov 14 - 12:10 PM ) to which the only response can be WTF??? as it seems to address nothing stated and has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic under discussion - My guess is the unidentified GUEST is chippy former beancounting NCO Rahere.

"Red Fog of War" what the fuck are you wittering on about you clown.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:43 AM

That was such an obvious accidental omission that anyone not wanting to score points would have just read on and ignored it.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

When you can't win the race at the chequered flag, you can still score points whilst losing, according to Williams, Ferrari, Terribulus.....

He picks you up on the slightest thing to deflect the weakness of his assertions.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

99% Musket?
I will come back if you produce any, but not for just assertions.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:51 AM

If I can't be arsed, do you promise?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

No.
Do it.
Produce some or just one of your 99%.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:27 AM

If you can't promise, you can piss off.

however, just for you

If Keith is right, this doesn't exist

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

A link to the the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, because my case was that no one died.
If that is your idea of debate I will stay away.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:50 AM

No Keith I think it is Musket's firm belief that an army can only be adjudged to have been well led in any particular conflict if it suffers no casualties (i.e. No wounded; No dead)

And the prat has the nerve to witter on about "reality"

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:39 AM

Really? Well if you say that's what I think, who am I to argue? In order for you to understand me you have to sink me to your ignorant level I suppose..

I recall all the well run, governance rich, assurance strong hospitals I assessed that had well motivated staff, few vacancies and excellent patient feedback. And it was true in some cases in some categories. Except the teams I led were there because the coroner was concerned about all the Clostridium difficile related deaths.

You know what? If historians in the future dig out the records, they too will scratch their heads over Maidstone, over Basildon, over Stoke Mandeville. Till they came to what we found. You see, we started at the cemetery and worked backwards. There was a time WW1 studies did similar.

Given the thread title, it is nicely ironic that I am reading some Len Deighton at present.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM

"I recall all the well run, governance rich, assurance strong hospitals I assessed that had well motivated staff, few vacancies and excellent patient feedback............... the teams I led were there because the coroner was concerned about all the Clostridium difficile related deaths.

...................Till they came to what we found. You see, we started at the cemetery and worked backwards. There was a time WW1 studies did similar."

Ho hum Musket another reality check for you.

1: YOU didn't start at the at cemetery and work backwards - the Coroner did - you started, or should have done, with the autopsy/post mortem reports and worked back to where those bodies had come from. After all Musket where would they have looked under your system if they had all been cremated?

2: While I can compare the 375 deaths of British soldiers on active service (Note: Active Service as opposed to being at war as in 1914) in Afghanistan being killed in action in Afghanistan over the course of 13 years to the additional deaths to the expected norm of 1,200 people who died attending the A&E department of Stafford Hospital over the course of four years and then make a decision call on which place was more dangerous to be in and in which place you stood greater chance of dying. In studying a conflict or a war (i.e. events where fatalities among your enemies is the planned object and among your own troops are fully anticipated and where sudden and violent death is considered to be the norm) then starting at cemeteries does not really help you.

3: In the early stages of this thread I stated the following:

"The British & Commonwealth Armies in general throughout the entire course of the war were well led in comparison to the armies of any other combatant power and far from that being based on "unqualified assertion" that can be proven by examination of whatever metric you would care to use to judge success."

So let us use your preferred metric for success and start at the cemeteries and look back from there:

Here are the statistics relating to those who ended up in cemeteries for the principal combatant nations engaged on the "Western Front" from the outset:

Britain - Population 45.4 million, % deaths 1.79% to 2.2%

France - Population 39.6 million, % deaths 4.29% to 4.39%

Germany - Population 64.9 million, % deaths 3.39% to 4.32%

Straightforward military deaths:
Britain - 888,246
France - 1,397,800
Germany - 2,037,000

OK then Musket which of the principal combatant nations engaged on the "Western Front" from the outset ended up requiring the least amount of space in these cemeteries you would be looking at?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:13 AM

Two dozen already
This kind of mindlessness needs all the abuse it can get
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 11:22 AM

What's all this shit about coroners and cremated? Are you being literal through bloody mindedness or lack of mental capacity? Either way it isn't impressive. The investigations I either carried out or assisted in came from either coroner rule 43 (now superceded) or concerns from NPSA (now NRLS.) Dead bodies and the work of coroners were irrelevant other than cause for investigating systemic issues. This work is carried out these days by CQC n England if such things interest you.

Last week you decided to compare wartime leadership with health care leadership. I totally agreed with you, which seemed to piss you off. I then (above) took the analogy further to say cemeteries full of dead soldiers or full of dead patients and everybody saying how good the leadership was. Grounds for concern.

I don't investigate incompetence in military circles but for me, the huge daily casualties, red tops patrolling behind the lines, the lies being spread to encourage faith in the military and the white feathers all add up to enough to investigate.

And people have.

And incompetent indifferent leadership has been found wanting.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Broken Poppies
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM

I don't think folks here mentioned the astonishing display of 800,000+ red ceramic poppies that were in the moat of the Tower of London until recently.

These were purchased in their thousands by members of the public for £25 of which only a small amount went to Forces charities.

However apart from the small proceeds of each one to charities, there were two other scandals.

1/ At the time of the display the Tower of London hosted an International Arms Dealers event -

"Guests, who included senior officials from the Ministry of Defence and foreign security companies, paid up to £3,000 for tables at the LCCI's Defence and Security Dinner but were told they would be advised on its location after registering.

"The Tower of London was accused of 'crass insensitivity' for hosting the £240-a-head black tie dinner for weapons manufacturers at the Tower of London, where poppies from the Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red memorial are still being removed.

"Andrew Smith, of Campaign Against the Arms Trade, told the Independent: 'On Remembrance Day, the Tower of London was a focus for remembering the horrendous loss of life in the First World War."

"'It is disturbing that just weeks later it can play host to the very arms companies which profit from perpetuating war and conflict today.

"'It is crassly insensitive and in extremely bad taste that this historic monument would do this so soon after providing such a high-profile focal point for Remembrance Day.'"

Arms Dealers at Tower of London

and

2/ Yodel the courier company have been delivering numerous broken poppies due to the appalling handling by their staff - one of which (at least) was been filmed throwing said package over a garden fence.

"Dozens of ceramic poppies which were planted at the Tower of London to commemorate those who died during the First World War have arrived at customers' homes broken into pieces.

"Disappointed customers who bought one of the £25 red blooms - designed to represent an individual British or Colonial death - have been faced with missing parts, smashed petals and shattered edges as the ceramic flowers arrived on their doorsteps.

"In one shocking incident, a courier was caught hurling a poppy package 25ft over a garden fence when he was unable to reach the customer's front door."

Broken Poppies Delivered By Yodel

CJB

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 06:14 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04p5q8c/songs-of-praise-remembrance-sunday

23 minutes in a children's choir sing the poem In Flanders Fields, by a Canadian Army doctor in WWI.
Heartbreaking.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 06:17 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04p5q8c/songs-of-praise-remembrance-sunday

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:23 AM

That's interesting. Can we say "all the poets" in the same way you say "all the historians"?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:35 AM

Broken Poppies' posting more or less sums up what the lads where sent to die for - profit and the continuance of war.
Keith and will glorify that fact by ignoring it.
Now that's what I call "heartbreaking", but then again , it takes all sorts....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:38 AM

They fought to save Europe and their homeland from a militaristic tyranny.
You should be grateful.
I am.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:41 AM

Brian Bond - A Victory worse than a Defeat?

Well worth the read.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:30 AM

Didn't realise you had to admire the mistakes and arrogance of the Ruperts in order to be grateful for the sacrifice.

I still think it ironic that Keith can say what he does and still be comfortable with the word "sacrifice."

Terribulus. A bit short by your standards? I actually like the idea that you type away for ages, fuming like a half pay Colonel writing to The Times, when once you have posted it, no bugger bothers reading it through anyway.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:49 AM

The historians are clear that the leadership was good.
What is your assessment worth, because it is only yours.
No living historian takes your view.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:24 AM

They fought to save Europe and their homeland from a militaristic tyranny.

That would be news to the millions of Congolese massacred by Leopold's Belgium and the French colonialists, or the Jewish population of the Pale obliterated by Tsarist Russia. Brave Little Belgium probably killed three times as many Africans as the Nazis did Jews.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 10:00 AM

Shhh... He's delicate.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 11:02 AM

Germany carried out an actual genocide in its African colonies.

British people went to war to halt an invader threatening Europe and Britain.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:14 PM

Like I said. Shh..

Keith differentiates between colonial powers. It would destroy him to realise we just about perfected concentration camps in The Boer War, or that the best way to command respect in India was to tie a few natives to the mouths of cannons.

Two legs good. Four legs bad eh Keith?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:09 PM

"Germany carried out an actual genocide in its African colonies."
So did 'Gallant little Belguim - to the tune of 10 million deaths and innumerable thousands of rubber workers having their hands removed for failing to meet their quota.
Britain continued to carry out atrocities in its colonies, in India and Ireland, to name just two, in order to hold onto them as did all other colonial powers
World War One was a fight for colonial power
"They fought to save Europe and their homeland from a militaristic tyranny."
Meaningless Imperialistic cliché
You choose not to comment that the powers that be in Britain commemorated the anniversary by holding an arms fair to sell weapons to some of the words worst despot - "land of hope and glory, mother of the free" eh, what??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:54 PM

I am telling you why the British people went to war.
You clearly think they were wrong to do so, but you will not find many historians who agree with you.
The consensus is that the people were right and it was a necessary war.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:14 PM

I am telling you why the British people went to war.

Indeed YOU are. But that don't make what you say true, even if Mr. T backs you up...

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:31 PM

That is why they went to war.
If you had read anything of those times, you would know that.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:43 PM

Have you read those books yet, Keith?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 02:35 AM

Greg F:

The reasons Keith gave for Great Britain's entry into the First World War are perfectly correct. Your:

"That would be news to the millions of Congolese massacred by Leopold's Belgium and the French colonialists, or the Jewish population of the Pale obliterated by Tsarist Russia. Brave Little Belgium probably killed three times as many Africans as the Nazis did Jews."

I do not think for one nano-second that millions of massacred Congolese (Actually massacred by Leopold - NOT - Leopold's Belgium, you see King Leopold of Belgium regarded what was known as the "Belgium Congo" as being his own personal private property) were in a position to give two flying f**ks as to why the British entered the fray in August 1914 - same to be said for the entire population of metropolitan France (In 1914 Great Britain was bound by no formal military alliance to either France or Russia) or all of those Russian Jews.

As far as "Brave Little Belgium" goes it should be remembered Greg F that "Brave Little Belgium" was formed after a revolution in 1830 which saw the southern provinces of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands break away and declare independence. The United Kingdom of the Netherlands refused to sign the Treaty of XVIII Articles in 1831 and negotiations were entered into which resulted in the Treaty of London in 1839 which the Dutch did sign along with the United Kingdom of Great Britain, the Austro-Hungarian Empire; Prussia and Russia. ALL signatories promised to guarantee Belgian Sovereignty AND Neutrality.

The "country" was allowed it's existence because it suited the national interests of THE principal victorious combatant of the Napoleonic War - Great Britain.

It suited Great Britain's national interest to have a small neutral country "parked" immediately opposite the entry to the Thames.

It suited Great Britain's national interest that the sovereignty and neutrality of that small country was guaranteed by all the powerful states of Europe, because as long as Belgium remained independent and neutral Great Britain really did not have to worry too much about Europe, and Great Britain between 1839 and 1914 was rich enough and powerful enough to expect that all the signatories to the Treaty of London (1839) would honour their obligations under that Treaty.

So to put in a way that would be acceptable to you - Great Britain entered the First World War on the side of the French and the Russians in order to protect what she saw as her own vital self/national interests. Much better for Great Britain to fight Germany with Allies in 1914 than attempt to fight a much more powerful Germany on her own later.

Great Britain fought the First World War to protect her own national integrity and in order to protect and preserve her empire - roughly the same reason that Great Britain has fought any war in Europe since 1690.