BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:33 PM

"If you ever had a chance to eyeball King Kong face-to-face, you wouldn't have no trouble believin' in God..."

I don't know about THAT, but I likely wouldn't have any trouble believing in King Kong!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:38 PM

Joe:

You might find out what the problem is he is trying to solve. Find out when it really started.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM

"I'm trying to lead him to a gentler, noncombative approach, but he's itching for a fight."

Put him into tai chi chuan.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 12:03 AM

Well, Amos, I've been trying to teach him that the Catholic faith has warts. Part of it is just the new-found religion syndrome. When people come into a new realization, they can get pretty obnoxious about it, trying to share with everyone their discovery that this is the one, true thing. I'm hoping he'll settle down.
He used to be my mother-in-law's physician, and he's extraordinary in the way he deals with elderly patients. Now he's working in hospice care. He'll do fine.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 03:23 AM

Joe Offer: Is the Catholic Church that you belong to the same church that I knew as a child? Is this the church that told me, as a 10 year old, that if I missed mass on a Sunday and then got knocked down and killed on Monday that I would go straight to a dreadful, painful, terrifying hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 03:24 AM

Thank you BK Lick and my sincere apologies to John Prine. Sorry I didn't remember his song correctly. It has been a few years since I heard it.

Why should anyone believe in God? He believes in you! He loves you! He has a great and rewarding plan for your life. That's 3 reasons. I can think of a lot more if you need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:12 AM

Slag: Your reasons for believing in God is meant tongue in cheek - isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM

"Try and find Jesus on your own"

            A lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to find Jesus. I wonder what they finally found in the end."

Didn't spend a lot of time - just a few seconds, in fact, at a most dangerous nad critical moment. But I did finally ask, in real desperation and with childlike humility --- and so it was given. And, although I am (hopefully) nowhere near the end, here's just the short list of what I found in that 2-minute experience:

*the most awesome and immediate and life-changing *SURPRISE*!!   

8-D

* a brand-new lease on life

*instant relief of pain - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual

*deep DEEEP understanding, affirmation and love

*JOY!!!!!

*enough truth to keep my inquiring curious mind most happily occupied for at least another dozen lifetimes!

For what its worth,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:23 AM

(I mean, for what its worth to YOU. For me, its simply priceless)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:27 AM

Daylia:

Wow.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:42 AM

You don't have to believe in a god to find meaning in life.

There are atheists in foxholes as well.

Actually, I don't like the term atheist that much because it seems loaded with all kinds of misapprehensions by those who use it to define people who are non-believers.

I prefer the word "Freethinker" because it doesn't exclude agnostics or others who may have some interest in their brand of theology that isn't institutional.

I think this thread has degenerated into a discussion by religious people about their religion.
Ed, my initial premise is right I believe. There can be no intelligent discussion when it's predicated on metaphysical beliefs that don't allow for any other point of view.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM

"But our lives ARE meaningless in the greater context of things! That's why it's so WILD and WONDERFUL that we can appreciate them!"
How bizarre.
Is it 'our lives' we can appreciate more fully through being meaningless, or 'things'? Both, our lives and the things.

But to say that if our lives are meaningless ***in the grand scheme of things*** does NOT imply that the VT killer (or anyone else that is unkind) is OK, how in the world did you get there?

(Besides, everybody is soulless in the sense of life after death, but we can still be spiritual beings.)

(In French, "il se trouve spirituel" (he think's he's spiritual) really means He thinks he's FUNNY.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: nutty
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM

I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Humanism. Certainly a credible alternative to religion and the nearest thing yet IMHO to the philosophy that Joe Offer has been professing.

For information ...

Humanism

Humanism is the belief that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. Humanists make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values. We seek to make the best of the one life we have by creating meaning and purpose for ourselves. We take responsibility for our actions and work with others for the common good.

What humanists believe

Humanism is an approach to life based on humanity and reason - humanists recognise that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone. Our decisions are based on the available evidence and our assessment of the outcomes of our actions, not on any dogma or sacred text.

Humanism encompasses atheism and agnosticism ‑ but is an active and ethical philosophy far greater than these negative responses to religion.

Humanists believe in individual rights and freedoms ‑ but believe that individual responsibility, social cooperation and mutual respect are just as important.

Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems ‑ so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.

Humanists are positive ‑ gaining inspiration from our lives, art and culture, and a rich natural world.

Humanists believe that we have only one life ‑ it is our responsibility to make it a good life, and to live it to the full.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Shaneo
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:35 PM

Perhaps the non believers would be mare at home on the other thread about monkeys.
My view is you either believe in God and are a Christian [like me] or that we evolved from along the monkey line,,make your choice

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM

I've been a Humanist all my life then, nutty, but I have also developed a good many spiritual beliefs as time went by. I combine them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:07 PM

"If you believe that life is meaningless, then it was OK that that young man down at Virginia Tech did what he did."

Life is meaningless from the point of view of the universe in general...it is just a thing that happens when certain physical laws operate....but it is QUITE meaningful from the viewpoint of sentient beings - who GIVE it meaning in proportion to their degree of awareness.
   The victims at VT would have 'chosen' to avoid their sad fate...the shooter gave life meaning BECAUSE he felt that depriving others of their life meant something to him.

Moral laws are not hard to describe, defend and apply, even with no 'ultimate' meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

Well said, Bill D.
Humanism is the PC term for Atheist, I find. I'm just trying to take the hoodoo off the word Atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:42 PM

Speaking of Humanists - wasn't Peter Wernick - the banjo player for Hot Rize - the past president of a large Humanist association?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:53 PM

"My view is you either believe in God and are a Christian [like me] or that we evolved from along the monkey line,,make your choice" Shaneo

Shaneo, do you mean to say that being a Christian naturally follows from believing in God? Many, many people believe in God but don't necessarily believe in 'Christ'.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Well, my thinking is a lot closer to that of nutty and Mrrzy, than it is to a lot of "Christians." Hey, and Bill D and I could be twins, although I'd never get him to admit that (my evil twin, that is...). But Frank, I gotta say that it wouldn't hurt you to be a bit more open-minded to those of us who see a spiritual side of things. You might find we have more in common than you think. It's just that we might express and explore things within a religious context.

Yes, Tunesmith, it's the same Catholic Church that treated you so badly in your youth. I suppose I was lucky to have a positive experience of that church when I was growing up, or maybe I learned to embrace the good and reject the bad. Every organization (and every person) has a dark side, what I like to call "warts" - and the Catholic Church still has that dark side and many of us still keep fighting to keep the dark side from taking control.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:49 PM

Amos: " From the center of the galaxy or the center of the Universe, anythingn about human existence is pretty meaningless, just as, from a boardroom, the lives of the carpet dust mites are meaningless. "

What is there in the centre of the universe that's so important compared to us? Relatively speaking, the lives of dust mites are of no concern to the members of the boardroom, presumably because the boardroom members are far superior beings (though some might disagree... ha!ha!) to dust mites and are equally unaware of their existence. It's an interesting parallel though since it suggests our lives are *relatively meaningless* when compared to that of a far greater intellect out there in the universe.... not that far off an argument for the existence of a 'superior being'.

Though I would also argue that our lives are not meaningless to God. To think we are too petty to be of any concern to Him is to underestimate His omnipotence...afterall, if you are omniscient and omnipotent it is no great trouble to watch over the affairs of us little people on the third rock out from the sun, while also keeping an eye to everything else... Perhaps we think God is too much like us: easily distracted, easily fatigued, moody and changeable.

John O'L: that was very succintly put!! But I would add "how exactly does one appreciate meaninglessness?"

Mrrzy: "We do usally believe that life is all the life you get - but are open to demonstrations of the contrary, there just haven't been any yet. Also, it follows from biology"

Ok, I suppose it goes back to the old question 'what's the difference between a live dog and a dead dog?' Answer: one obviously lacks something the other has. Scientists haven't come up with any convincing explantion for what exactly this life force is. In humans, it's possible that it may survive death with the personality intact. There doesn't seem to be any scientific proof it's true (unless you take Kirlian photography as some kind of rough groping in this direction) but as we talked about on a different thread, this may be due to the shortcomings of science and our conceptual abilities. We may indeed have some form of proof in front of us and not even be able to see it. Now I do accept of course that that's not much use to you if you are an empiricist. (Of course Christians would argue Jesus as being the prime example of life after death, i.e the resurrection. But this is not a scientifically acceptable proof, as science demands an experiment can be repeated at any time by anyone).

But at least we have come to agree that atheism is based also on beliefs / conclusions rather than simply non-beliefs.

"But why O why would you think that "why we think and act the way we do" isn't part of the physical world?"

I'm not saying we do not react to external stimuli or that we do not have an effect on the physical world around us. What I am contesting here is the idea I have come across in some science-focused publications that our lives, emotions and actions are governed solely by physical and chemical laws. E.g we fall in love because of pheromones and chemicals in the brain. We do good things only because it creates 'feel good' chemicals in the brain, etc., Morality comes to have no philosophical meaning but only a chemical one. And as other posters above have pointed out, if morality is simply chemical reactions, once again there is no wrong or right and we should dry our eyes over Virginia Tech.


Little Hawk: "This "God" I speak of is totally beyond the scope or awareness of most conventionally religious people, because they have chosen to focus usually on a set of books, a prophet, a church, some body of teachings which came out of the culture around them. As such, they're focusing on a very small fragment of the whole, and it's limited to the culture they know...on the planet they know"

I think you're definitely on to something here in your main point about God's ...what's the word?.... being-beyond-our-comprehension-ness. I kinda remember some lines in the Bible about Elijah (?) getting a glimpse of God, but only via God's shadow as He passed. God had warned Elijah (who was very close to God according to the same account) not to look at Him directly as He would look 'too terrible to behold' (terrible here in the sense of 'inconceivable' 'vast' 'over-powering to the human intellect'). It seems clear from this alone that God would be quite beyond our human comprehension in His totality. This makes sense if afterall He is the Great Architect (as Blake called Him) and we His creation. We can't expect the creation to fully comprehend the creator. So I think you're probably on the ball in saying God in His totality can't be condensed down into a book.

The way I see the Bible in this context is that it provides *as much as we need to know* (especially in this life) about God and probably as much as we would be able to comprehend in any case. The Bible can guide us as to how to approach and interact with this Being, and hints at His nature and His desire for our welfare. That's its primary function as I see it - to reveal the will of God in regard to us and our lives (and from that we can also deduce something about the nature of God).

There's an interesting book by a guy called John Polkinghorne called 'Belief in God in an Age of Science" (ISBN 0-300-07294-5) which looks at the compatability of many aspects of scientific enquiry with a belief in God. Well worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM

Bill D: "Life is meaningless from the point of view of the universe in general"

Err, does the universe have a point of view? ;-)

Frank: "I think this thread has degenerated into a discussion by religious people about their religion.
Ed, my initial premise is right I believe. There can be no intelligent discussion when it's predicated on metaphysical beliefs that don't allow for any other point of view"

Frank, Frank..the thread title was 'why should anyone believe in God?' Why do you use the word 'degenerated'? Are spiritual and religious beliefs below contempt for you? We are all - atheists / humanists and christians alike - trying to answer the thread question in the best way we can. The atheists may be saying 'you shouldn't believe in something that doesn't exist' while those with some religious inclination and spiritual experience are trying to say 'you should believe in God because it's in your own interest'.

And we're all of course going to refer to the sources that make sense to us. The atheist will stick to the empirical sciences first of all, as he seeks physical evidence. The Christian will refer to the Bible, since we believe it contains the explanations of what difference belief in God will make to your life. No one is stopping you from having your point of view, but surely that does not imply I have to agree with your point of view or all your terms of reference in order for the discussion to be 'intelligent'.

Perhaps it would also be useful to once again make a distinction between institutional religious practice, and spiritual beliefs. As Joe has pointed out, the Catholic church has its problems, and there isn't uniform consent among Catholics over all the teachings etc., There is also a lot more questioning of central authority than in the past, but that has happened more in the secular world too (though this may not always be apparent in some of the media!)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

The way I see the Bible in this context is that it provides *as much as we need to know* (especially in this life) about God and probably as much as we would be able to comprehend in any case.

Dear Jumpin' Holy Murgatroyd. I am afraid I, for one, must vehemently disagree wtih you. I find the Bible to be ethnocentric, chauvinistic, sexist, racist, and in many ways petty-minded, and I find that it tells me hardly anything at all about God worth knowing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 01:38 AM

Amen daylia. Guest Tunesmith, my tongue is firmly at home between the molars.

More reasons:

God will set your priorities right.
God will give you assurance of life eternal.
God will give you a peace that the world cannot have or comprehend.
God will give you understanding of His Living Word.
God will never, never leave you or forsake you.
He is the source of your physical being and the waiting Father of your spiritual life. It is He Who sustains you.
None of this can you know until you come to Him with empty arms.
All He has is a free gift (that's Grace) In Jesus Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:02 AM

Oh, dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:12 AM

Joe: The Catholic Church changes because it has to - not because it wants to! If the church could get away with treating children the way it treated me it would. But, in today's world, it can't. If, today, the church threatened a child the way it did me it would be accused of child abuse and find itself in big legal trouble. That's why it changed.
   And, this idea that you can seperate the church from the true spirit of God is silly. The church is God. People learn of the existance of god through the church. Without the church, god would not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: guitar
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:42 AM

I agree with slag

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:51 AM

Well, my dog convinced me this evening that life has true meaning. He says the meaning of life is FOOD, and he wonders what all this religion garbage is all about.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:14 AM

I think we are confusing 'meaningless' with 'insignificant' or 'unimportant', the first being absolute, the others relative.

In the universe we are tiny and possibly even irrelevant, but in the cosmos it is size that is irrelevant, (if not meaningless, heh heh). In the cosmos we have meaning, purpose, and worth, not just to each other, but to and within ourselves as well.
Try saying that three times really fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 11:56 AM

Nickhere-"Err, does the universe have a point of view? ;-)"

Nope...and that is the point ;>)

(Joe Offer- twins? TWINS?? well...ok, as long as I can be the PRIMEevil twin)


Slag.."None of this can you know until you come to Him with empty arms."

Sorry, mate...but "believing so that you may know" doesn't fit my idea of how to be confident...I prefer "KNOWING so that I may understand what to believe".
   This 'surrender' of the mind to a proposition which has no efficacy unless you decided it does literally means that you can believe ANY claim, including outright lies, and it will "be true for you".

   There are many religions, yet a set of phrases like the ones you post assert that there is only one which is correct.

I am reminded of a line from the writings of Fredrick Nietzsche (translated in various ways)

"...and one old greybeard of a god stood up and announced, "I am the Lord thy God...thou shalt have no other gods before me!"...and all of the other gods died laughing"

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 01:54 PM

My dog is in full agreement with yours, Joe. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:34 PM

What I am contesting here is the idea I have come across in some science-focused publications that our lives, emotions and actions are governed solely by physical and chemical laws. E.g we fall in love because of pheromones and chemicals in the brain. We do good things only because it creates 'feel good' chemicals in the brain, etc., Morality comes to have no philosophical meaning but only a chemical one. And as other posters above have pointed out, if morality is simply chemical reactions, once again there is no wrong or right and we should dry our eyes over Virginia Tech.

This is an excellent statement of an idea that I keep hearing, and am glad to have the chance to try to clarify.

Various sciences have demonstrated:

1) The lives of our cells, just like the lives of any other mammal, are, indeed, "governed solely" - in the physiological sense - "by physical and chemical laws." We are no different from a blade of grass in that sense.
(2) The *perception of* love is indeed brought from your brain (body) to your mind (spirit) through the actions pheromones and neurotransmitters, but to say that "we fall in love because of pheromones and chemicals in the brain" conveys a seriously misunderstood interpretation of that datum.

But we don't live our lives at the cellular level. What I referred to above as "spirit" is what you do with the mind you happen to have, given to you by the brain you evolved and the experiences you've had with it. Your soul in the interpersonal sense - your core, your essense, what makes you You, what brain-dead people have lost - I prefer the word Spirit to describe this because it literally means Breath.

Life is biochemistry at the fundamental level, not at the level at which we experience it. And consciousness is electro(bio)chemistry.

But through a wonderful fluke of nature, because of becoming bipedal, we got the outgoing, movement/motivation parts of our brain - the parts that run animals' bodies so they can Eat Survive Reproduce - in close physical proximity to the incoming, perceptual, monitoring part, that brings in the information needed for the brain of any animal to decide which way to move its body. That presented us, who were already environment-manipulating little animals, with a sudden connection between motion and emotion - which is usually not the case.
So we can actually *make decisions about* all kinds of things related to eating surviving reproducing that other animals just do naturally. And suddenly, we invent things like Morality, to guide *whether* we should do anything.
But morality is a human invention. Cats playing with their birds are not being cruel, and the bird is not offended. So when you say "Morality comes to have no philosophical meaning but only a chemical one" again, you are conflating biological reality (it is certainly brain chemicals which provide you with guilt feelings, or righteous indignation, or that virtuous glow you mention) with the reality of living as a human, at the spiritual level (in my sense of the term Spirit).

To us, it matters a great deal. And our intelligence tells us that that poor crazy VT guy who slaughtered all those people did a terrible thing, that it is terrible for the dead and for their survivors, that it's just as well he killed himself so we won't have to deal with having to either kill him provide food, clothing and shelter for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

And consciousness is electro(bio)chemistry

This is an untenable proposition, in my opinion. I see it as going to the movies and getting stuck among the characters on the screen, confused by all the drama going on around you, as distinguished from being able to enjoy the fiction with knowing suspended disbelief, while still being conscous of the machinery behind the projection and the authors, actors, producers, and directors who braiught the film into being. I recognize this is only one interpretation and somewhat of a Socartatic one.

But in any case there is, to my way of thinking, an inescapable jump in basic quality, not just quantity, in certain actions attributable to consciousness whihc are entirely inconsistent with everything we know about matter and energy and chemicals and electrons.

1. Being there (as an act of intent). This is the simpllest act of consciousness and cannot be duplicated by an electromechanical device.

2. Perceiving. This, too, is the simplest act of consciousness. Electronic and biochemical systems can react to stimuli, but perception itself is something else again.

3. Intent. Consciousness can energize matter, and arguably even bring it into being. It can generate the will that a certain change shall occur and see that it does. Matter and energy cannot do this; they are entropic, passive, and constrained to the laws of mass and condensation, generally. They do not envision r intend; they do not create new communications and send them out for review.

You could argue that physical particles cannot exist entirely in the present, also, but that is a far out proposition that I won't belabor here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

There must be a god. The alternative is to believe in evolution and that despite the many millenia we have been on this planet we still inflict the maximum possible pain on each other - and call it childbirth. So for that reason alone not only must god exist - but it proves conclusively that the deity is male.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:05 PM

Joe, does your dog make obeisance to you before you feed him or is he faithful to you all the time? Well, it's OK. I know you'll forgive him. He's just a dog, after all.

Open and empty arms because He has done it ALL, for you. You don't want to insult the barer of a gift by offering to pay him for it, do you?

He paid the full price in order that you may have eternal life. Just say "Thank you".

Man's insignificance ? "Oh LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy Name throughout all the earth Who has set the thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

When I consider thy heavens the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars which thou hast ordained; what is man that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels and hast crowned him with glory and honor.

You have made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: all the sheep and oxen, yea and the beasts of the field: the fowl of the air and the fish of the sea and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the sea.

O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy Name in all the earth!" (Psalms 8).

A little ancient poetry there but the theme is Man's insignificance and the question why God would even take notice of Man. We are the Bee's knees as far as God is concerned.

As stated in other threads (by yours truly and a few others), God is solely a "faith" proposition. Human logic and reason cannot prove Him. Good works, "holy deeds" will not attain Him. The secret knowledge is hidden in plain view for all to see but it is hidden, nonetheless, from the hearts of men (women too!)who will not acknowledge Him and the great thing he has done for you.

Why should anyone believe in God? To not believe is to miss completely the meaning of life, Life itself.

Believe? Not just a "head" concept or a metaphysical acknowledgment that "Yes, there is a God." but an entrusting of your life into His hands. That's belief.

Again, it's NOT an argument. It's a "take it or leave it" proposition. God won't force the issue if you opt to do things your own way. (Mt 7:13,14).

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:22 PM

Is this a real person?
Are there many of these in America?
This person has just posted in favour of all citizens owning or using firearms

Are you getting scared yet??....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:41 PM

akenaton. You kind of scare me by making assumptions based on some kind of stereotyping. 99.99% of legal gun owners are not going around killing people or robbing liquor stores. Grow up! I'm not selling anything and I am not IMPOSING my beliefs on you or anyone else. I, being a member of the set "Anyone" am expressing my opinion just as others have done. You, however, in your attempt to ridicule, make an ad hominem attack rather than a rational appeal. I'm sorry you are so easily frightened!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM

The problem is that I am not easily frightened....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: guitar
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

I was brought in a very strange household, my father was an athiest and my mother was Church of Scotland, and my father taught me a wee bit about the bible, and and as a youth he went to church, and he liked God.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM

There is nothing so vain as a talking human brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity saith the prophet! Hi LH. Chongo avoids all this. No original sin. God's stamp of approval on all he does. Ahhh, to be a chimp!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM

I don't know about original sin, Slag, but Chongo has picked up a great deal of brand new self-made sins along the way. ;-) However, he seems to be able to live with them. Occasionally he gets morose when things aren't going so well.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

"But morality is a human invention. Cats playing with their birds are not being cruel, and the bird is not offended. So when you say "Morality comes to have no philosophical meaning but only a chemical one" again, you are conflating biological reality (it is certainly brain chemicals which provide you with guilt feelings, or righteous indignation, or that virtuous glow you mention) with the reality of living as a human, at the spiritual level (in my sense of the term Spirit)."

There has been research on animal behavior to find that they do have their own brand of "morality". The term "spirit" has no scientific meaning. It's an abstract concept that is vastly confusing because it means so many different things. The human brain after years of evolution has adapted its own brand of morality in order to survive. The brain is composed of chemicals and cells that create feelings of awareness and consciousness. These are mechanisms that initiate our survival. Morality is not some foggy airy misty unknowable thing but is built in to the human consciousness. That consciousness is found in the human brain which is not abstract. It's a function of the human brain.

There is so much in science that we don't know, therefore it would be reasonable to want to apply scientific principles to the study of religion.

There is a fear of mortality that guides feelings of wanting to explain phenomenon in terms of religion and spirit and to attribute some imaginary concept to soften the blow of death.

The acceptance of death, however, is the embracing and loving of life in the now and not some imaginary hereafter.

The abstract notion of "spirit" would have to be carefully defined in scientific terms for it to maintain any semblance of reality.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

Mrrzy - I have seen animals that were deeply offended about having been attacked by another animal or a person. They didn't forget about it. They carried a grudge about it. They plotted their revenge.

Animals do have a moral sense...it's just not usually nearly as complex as the moral ideas we humans come up with...because animals don't use such complex language as we do.

You're quite correct that the cat is not being consciously cruel when it plays with the bird...but the bird is offended (in my opinion). He reacts with horror and outrage, as is understandable.

The cat, like most creatures, is concerned with his own feelings, not those of the bird. If he became human, he might begin to question his own feelings...provided he was a rather advanced human. We are capable of further dimensions of moral thinking than animals, for sure.

You assume we made it all up. Fine. I don't necessarily assume that. I figure we made up some of it, allright, we're making up some of it all the time, but maybe not all of it. But I'm just theorizing. I don't know. Neither do you. Neither one of us has any way of knowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:22 PM

I had a dog (German Shepherd) who would NOT pee indoors because she'd been gently led to understand that that was wrong. One time I ended up in hospital over night and was unable to get home until about 10:00 AM. She'd been inside for over 14 hours and she had peed. When I got home she was slow to come greet me and when she did her head was down. I saw the puddle and mopped it up and called her over. I gave her a hug and said stuff like, "It's OK", "Alright". She knew she'd done wrong, but stuff happens. I don't know that a moral sense necessarily involves notions of right and wrong (Bill D is better informed to speak to that), but that dog knew the difference. I have numerous examples that demonstrate it, but getting into them here is a no-go.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:57 PM

I believe that stringslinger may be ignoring the primacy of language, its evolution and acculturation. To read "science" back into the language in order to dispel the notions of "spirit" ('pneuvma' in the Greek, 'nephesh' in Hebrew/ Aramaic) and "soul" ('psyche' in the Greek and again 'nephesh' in the Hebrew) is a wrong headed thing to do. It corrupts our language and destroys meaning.

Scientific thought and method is a wonderful tool for understanding the physical world we live in but it is NOT the know all, end all of ALL things. Science cannot adequately explain things like beauty, love, nobility, righteousness or spirit. And it seems like the very things that make life worth living are what science is least capable of dealing.

If God be the Author of Mankind, it is certainly he who has given us the ability to reason and the ability to comprehend things beyond reason. The human brain and its logic allow us to survive and prosper in this 3 (4) dimensional world. Our hearts allow us to look beyond the creation to the Creator. To assume no Creator takes the same amount of faith to account for the being of anything. Existence is, itself a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:29 PM

Yessir, it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: The Hiker
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

Jasus lads all this is too deep for me all I can say is thank God Im an athiest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:43 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM

"Is this a real person?
Are there many of these in America?"

yes, Ake....there are quite a few of these in America.

Slag...you move back & forth from poetic musings to facts & reason, and yet you assume you have stated an obvious truth in the poetry because it sounds so...ummmm...wonderful and uplifting.

I have NO difficulty in appreciating "...things like beauty, love, nobility... " without recourse to assumptions of " righteousness or spirit" as causal forces. I have no problem with contemplating the complex majesty of the Universe without ANY assumptions as to its origin. It is not an issue that I am capable of dealing with, so I just follow what astronomy & mathematics are able to deduce about what we CAN see, and don't try to evalute what various religions try to tell us about what we CAN'T see.
   (did you ever hear the story about the lady who asserted that the world was supported on the back of a giant turtle? An astronomer asked her, "but what does the turtle stand on?" ..she replied, "hmmmppf! Don't try to fool me with THAT trick, young man! It's turtles all the way down!")
Silly story? Yeah, but people BELIEVE things like that, and the real point is that the astronomer didn't know either...he just knew that "turtles" was not a convincing theory. Saying, "I can't understand it, I guess God did it" is an understandable conclusion in historical perspective, but no stronger than "turtles" if you demand evidence. That IS why we talk about 'belief' in God...he sure doesn't pop in regularly to clarify confusing details.