The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?

Subject: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 24 - 07:54 PM

I just noticed that Matt McGinn's "The Red Yo-Yo" and Andy Stewart's "The Midgies" use the same tune.

What was it before they got hold of it?

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 24 - 08:08 PM

Here's Matt McGinn's "The Red Yo-Yo": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGfG11tV8bA

Here's Kenneth McCellar singing "the Midges": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGYX1eTKbk

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 24 - 12:48 AM

Yup, same melody, but it sure is familiar.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Jim mclean
Date: 22 May 24 - 03:02 AM

I noticed that years ago and I think it was Jack Campin who suggested the melody was around “MacLean’s Welcome”

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 24 - 04:31 AM

very similiar to you chose a fine time to leave me lucille

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 24 - 09:51 AM

COULD IT BE A TUNE OF HARRY LAUDERS?

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 22 May 24 - 11:32 AM

The rhythmic chorus of the two novelty songs has a definite kind of similarity to that of 'come o'er the stream Charlle', but with their own added originality. Kenneth McKellar obviously took Matt McGinn's mid 1960's street song type parody, and did his own take.. but naughtily used the same tune almost without alteration. I say naughtily, unless someone can find that McGinn himself used an earlier note for note tune. McGinn was already dead by the time McKellar's song was written/recorded, and the 'Red Yo' Yo' was circulating as a kids' type song. So he may have chanced his arm. I should say that McKellar is the writer/originator of the Midges, not Andy Stewart.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 22 May 24 - 12:01 PM

Since writing the last bit.. I do find on the PRS/MCPS database that their registration credits McGinn with the words, but they have rightly or wrongly allocated the tune as trad. and many releases on their database state that.   So if that is correct, McKellar was legally entitled to come up with his own version using the same tune and changing the title and theme.   There are actually two registrations, one with full song credited to McGinn, the other as above.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 May 24 - 07:46 AM

I'm surmising that it's an old "music hall song" as opposed to "traditional" in the true sense of the word.

So, Sandman might be on the right track even if it wasn't Harry Lauder. I've no idea one way or the other.

Incidentally, there's some familiarity with this well known Irish ditty..

https://youtu.be/SViPByHqvk4

I'm not sure if the tune is "related" or not. of course. However, whoever wrote either tune first might have influened whoever wrote the second. ;-))

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 May 24 - 10:25 AM

I'm hearing the Manchester Rambler by Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 24 - 07:20 PM

Jim (crediting me!) is on to something with Maclean's Welcome (Come O'er The Stream, Charlie), which in turn is a variant of "Ach du lieber Augustin", but the two recent songs are more similar to each other than either is to that - so I'd guess some intermediate later song came into it. Music hall sounds plausible.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 May 24 - 04:56 AM

ok there are similarities between songs & tunes- hardly surprising really.
Seems you've all been listening to the awful pseudo-intellectual drivel on BBC Radio 4 'Add to Playlist' where the most tenuous links are created between such as the music of Prokofiev and Dolly Parton.

I think Sandman's comment is of most use to me- it's reminded me to start singing 'Lucille' again after all these years- I remember once walking along Buckingham Palace Road about 1980 when a loud inebriated voice yelled 'hey Kenny, gie's a song'- reminded me to get my hair cut & trim my beard.......

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 May 24 - 01:12 PM

Jim, Matt McGinn was a stalwart of folk music. Though most of his work is original, there is some debate over the tune used for this song. Lucille has got bugger all to do with it. This is a folk music site where the origins of tunes come up quite often. The MCPS/PRS now seem to have the tune down of red yo yo, as being trad. with the words being McGinn's, So what is the tune it's supposedly derived from, or are they actually wrong? The first releases just have McGinn's name and no mention of trad. but the last few decades of releases that the MCPS?PRS have state Trad./McGinn crediting the tune as trad, but why? And if correct what was the original source. Kenneth McKellar would likely have known of Matt McGinn's song, so it's not some tenuous cross cultural linking of vaguely similar works from different countries or times. McKellar himself though often thought of as a stuffy opera type and formal baritone Scottish singer, was actually a humourist who occasionally wrote sketches. It seems likely he based his work on the NcGinn tune.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 24 - 04:38 PM

tell us something we don't know next time

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 24 - 03:10 AM

McKellar was a tenor.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 26 May 24 - 06:12 AM

Sorry about that Jim, I was in a hurry to fire off a keyboard warrior reply to the last troublemaker, even my typing is dodgy.   Heck, this was a great discussion forum for trying to get some sense into where music originates from, and give due credit to those who wrote it. Something that with the rise of AI and false information being put out may one day be a lost cause.   Still, at least I did manage to correct the initial premise at the start of the thread that Andy Steward wrote 'the Midges', when it was tenor Kenneth McKellar, we all make mental slips.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 27 May 24 - 07:17 AM

No problems, Rossey. I knew both Kenneth McKellar and Matt McGinn, both have recorded songs of mine.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 27 May 24 - 10:24 AM

I did it again! That should have read Andy Stewart not Andy Steward (sic). I wish Mudcat had an edit button for typos. Of course innumerable singers have recorded Jim McLean songs, including my own brother - who did a DVD and audio recording of the obligatory "..Glencoe". Luckily for the world I have not recorded anything, as I can't sing. My voice won't be irritating anyone, unlike the legendary midge, that Kenneth McKellar humorously wrote about.

Subject: RE: The Red Yo-Yo/The Midgies - what's the melody?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 03:01 PM

And it gave Jim MacLean an idea...

Apologies to Matt McGinn’s Wee Red yo-yo.

Have you seen a red Tory, red Tory, red Tory
Have you seen a red Tory with a wee yella streak?

There’s Sarwar and Starmer,
A knight in red armour,
They’ll tell ye what you want tae hear.
But if they win power,
Within half an hour
They’ll slap 50p on your beer!

Have you seen a red Tory, red Tory, red Tory
Have you seen a red Tory with a wee yella streak?

There’s Sunak and Starmer,
A nyaff and a charmer,
They’re wanting your vote, what a farse!
They’re ‘honest and true’ but it’s you that they’ll screw
They’re cheeks o the same Tory arse.

Have you seen a red Tory, red Tory, red Tory
Have you seen a red Tory with a wee yella streak?

Keir Starmer loves Maggie,
The auld Tory baggie
The wan wha stole milk frae the weans.
She mucked up the miners,
The shipyairds and jiners,
But Starmer thinks Thatcher had brains.

Have you seen a red Tory, red Tory, red Tory
Have you seen a red Tory with a wee yella streak?

There’s Tories in Moray,
And red wans CA’ED Murray
There’s nothin atween them ata’.
So mind when you’re votin
Don’t turn your wee coat in
The difference they’ll mak is …….hee haw!

Have you seen a red Tory, red Tory, red Tory
Have you seen a red Tory with a wee yella streak?