Explosions in London

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:20 AM

We have a problem however. Immigration into this country unchecked has indeed imported people whom we have no knowledge of their background. THat is not 'RACISM' but just the reality.

www.bnp.org.uk

Just what we need. The BNP are just as bad as Al Quaida, the same evil fanatics. This disgusting arsehole Hamman wants to make cheap political gains out of the deaths of dozends of people of all ethnic backgrounds, follow up the bombings with a race war, Serbianise this country. He should be interned for our own safety.

No knowledge of their background? We know YOURS, you evil sod.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:21 AM

Death toll just risen to 50

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:05 AM

Presumably the critically ill who couldn't be saved? When I heard that they had all made it through the night I was relieved and amazed, but I guess it was unfortunatley unlikely to continue. Let's just hope there will be no more

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:13 AM

Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine � they all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller�s song �Won�t you buy my sweet blooming lavender�. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel":

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:16 AM

Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine. They all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller's song 'Won't you buy my sweet blooming lavender'. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel":

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine � they all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller�s song �Won�t you buy my sweet blooming lavender�. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel":

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM

I'm alive!

I work in Aldgate East, just a few buildings from the tube station.
(If you saw the news coverage of Aldgate East tube, you saw our
building) I came through about an hour before all the explosions, but
some of my colleagues had closer calls - one on the tube before the
one that exploded, and several on the ones after, that never got in
to work. But we had nobody injured or lost, though lots of people
called to see if we were all OK.
We were blockaded into the office most of the day, as we were so
close to the station, and because there were suspect vehicles in the
streets at the front & back of us. Today there are rail services
running, and a reduced Tube service, but much of the streets are
cordoned off.
London was very strange yesterday - eerily quiet, with no traffic,
just sirens and helicopers, and lots of people wandering about,
shepherded by yellow-jacketed police and a few armed soldiers here &
there. Spooky. But it's not the first time we've been bombed, and it
doubtless won't be the last - although much of the City seems to be
taking the day off for a long weekend, there was & is no panic, and
people are just getting on with it.

I expect most things will be back to normal by Monday - just in time
for the start of the chaos that preparing for the blasted Olympics
will cause! :)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:42 AM

I'm glad all the London Catters seem to be fine, I just hope all the others who might have been in London for meetings from all the other places in the UK are ok My mum was meant to be in a meeting near Russell Square yesterday, but on Wednesday their meeting was cancelled, meaning she didn't have to travel down to London (by train)... enough said really. but Circumstances and coincidence work in strange ways.

Best wishes to those who might not be so fortunate.

Ella who is Sooze.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:35 AM

I hadn't realised there were so many Mudcatters around here. perhaps we should have a mudgather in the Hoop & Grapes when it reopens!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:44 AM

I'm on ! Hoop n Grapes is a favourite !

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:58 AM

Been scrolling up ... " ... still able to bring a city to its knees ???? " Ellenpooly ??????
We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago ....

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM

I'm sure you could count linda in - and if you make it after work I could pop in on my way back from Kingston

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM

Saw a report this a.m. saying that some hoteliers in London upped their room rates last night, in some cases triple.

The source for this was reported as "a number of people who decided to stay in London overnight".

If true, the profiteers should be named in all the media, so that visitors to London could avoid them.

The opposite side of this coin is the report that Marks & Spencer sent staff out with blankets, and bottles of water for the survivers, and walking wounded. When they ran out of blankets they took clothing from the racks, and handed that out.

Deserving of much praise and appreciation.

It just proves that crises can bring out both the best and the worst in us

Don T.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Flash Company
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

Struck by a sobering thought this a.m.
Ten years ago my job involved a monthly credit meeting in Slough. My itinerary each month was to leave Manchester on Wed p.m., travel down to London, stay in Russell Square Wed night and have a meal and an evening at the 100 Club.
Thursday, early breakfast, underground from Russell Square via Kings Cross to Paddington and on to Slough for a 9.00 a.m. start.
I could easily have been caught in the middle of this, makes you think!
On the other hand, The IRA were up to their tricks in those days, and I still walked around London at midnight and felt safe.

FC

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM

We first heard the news when my in-laws called from Japan to ask if my kids in England were all right. They are nowhere near London so I wasn't worried but several others called to ask if they were. I called this evening and.... they are fine.

I am so relieved to know that our Mudcat brethren and sistren are fine and so heartbroken to know that so many people have had their lives torn apart by this senseless violence.

On the one hand this is a wanderful world when people around the globe can pull together to help each other in times of need. I am in Guam, my in-laws are in Japan and do not speak English. They were worried about two young adults they have never met and possibly never will meet. The two young people in question are literally on the other side of the world from us. Also in this thread are people who have never met and people who are old friends and, with the exception of the trolls and flamers, we are all agreed that violence is not the answer.

And then there are those who reject the future and the melding of the human race into one big family. They strike out with words, guns, and bombs. They are both educated and ignorant. Some of them are rich but most of them are poor. They come from all walks of life and represent all races, creeds, religions and genders. We appeal to them to lay down your weapons. Make a stand for decency and peace.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM

We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago

Trying not to be, eh?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM

Sorry Docktor, I didn't mean to imply that Londoners went down on their knees. On the contrary, the people were at their best; helping each other, donating blood, organizing assistance in all sorts of ways.

What I meant was that the city did indeed come to a standstill for pretty much the rest of the day. Transportation did get up and running (at least some of the buses by late afternoon, and the Docklands Light Rail) but the point I was trying to make is that whether we like it or not, and no matter how much security might have been in place, cities like London will always be vulnerable to those who are intent on creating chaos.

I've been down to London today and though the streets were certainly quieter than usual, what I saw was people getting on with their lives, people who weren't about to let themselves be frightened out of their city for any longer than it took to get the transport back up and running.

Yes, I'm sure there were many who decided that since it was Friday, a little early weekend wouldn't be a bad idea, and this was supported by the transport authorities. But I didn't see anger, or paranoia, or anything other than a city willing itself back to normality.

I love this city, and what happened yesterday only confirmed how amazing it is.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

"We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago ...."

A few more pints of Young's Special and that statement might be doubtful !

I once saw a film (I think it had Michael Caine in it) where there was an incredible pub fight, set in the Lamb.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:21 AM

I was wrong about Michael Caine, it was "Brannigan" starring John Wayne.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

Amazingly some Hotel and guest house owners increased there prices following the bombs, a Manchester businessman told Radio 5 Lve [BBC] he was charged £210 for a London Hotel room, the same Hotels charge the previous week was £90.

A government spokesman has said that there will be an inquiry into this, how low can these bastards crawl?, many of these workers had to remain overnight in London and they were easy picking for these scum, if the Brit government do there duty they should hit them hard.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM

That is the sort of thing that makes me ashamed of my countrymen. Absolute weasels like that deserve to have their establishments publicised so that we can make a choice to boycott them. Hopefully the British newspapers will follow up on this.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Peg
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

I hope all of you and yours are safe and well, UK Catters....sad day. We did a candlelight vigil for the known dead and the injured and their loved ones last night and will keep the candles lit all week.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

Paul Burke:

I am not going to respond again to your disgusting accusation that i am as bad as the terrorists who may have orchestrated this sickening attack.

I will merely repeat what i said before. It is clear that it should NOT be viewed that ALL muslims are labelled terrorists. We have to be careful about this.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Memory of martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

rephrased:

Great Britain brought this on itself with it's tolerance of Islamo-facist groups who have infiltrated their country in the name of tolerance.

Now the price is being paid for unchecked tolerance!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:01 PM

Memory, we can tolerate who we want, and it is not for you to judge. If everyine was as tolerant, perhaps there woudn't BE a problem.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:11 PM

Cire, i take it you do condemn the muslim terrorists who have bombed this country? Why don't you attack them for their intolerance?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:19 PM

Memory, a lot on here are more concerned about proving to themselves and others desperately how 'tolerant' 'liberal' and 'modern' they are in an effort allay their self-loathing.

lets face it, when muslims terrorists are bombing our country and muslims in uk are reported on news as celebrating it means enough is enough. must britain always bend over to the aggressor?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

I condemn no one, because I have no one to pinpoint it on concretely. Give me hard evidence, and the proper names. Then, have them brought to justice by the proper people. I refuse to attack the muslim people for something a bunch of terrorist extremists have done.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Anti Nazi league
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM

GO AWAY Hannam...you have NOTHING to say that ANYBODY wants to hear on the Mudcat and in particular on this Thread and while your going take Guest: memory of martin gobshite, with you.
Now take your Hate Filled Political Diatribe elsewhere. Your one sick puppy Lad with a lot of growing up to do. Go play on your own Party's website. At least you can find other sickos there that will be willing to exchange your same twisted views with.
You are most definetly in a Zero Tolerance towards Nazis Zone here...so...run along


Glad that all the London Catters are safe and accounted for.
Cheers and all the Best

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:54 PM

McGrath praises Ken Livingstone and calls his words effective and impressive. Livingstone used the word 'cowardly' to describe the terrorist action at a time when he couldn't know whether the bombings were suicide bombings or not. I agree with McGrath here. But is this the same McGrath who once said:

And as if it made sense to describe a suicide bomber as "cowardly", as if that was the ultimate insult that has to be dragged in, however absurd. It's a way of filling in the space and saying something that sounds appropriate, but which doesn't make any kind of sense at all. The trouble is, that space could be filled by saying things that did make sense.

Ah, I see: If Livingstone says 'cowardly' that's impressive, but if Bush in a similar situation uses these words that doesn't make sense.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:00 PM

Wolfgang:

Bingo. All judgements here seem to be based on whether one agrees with the politics of the person, regardless of any facts involved.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

Wolfgang, that isn't fair. McGrath said that Livingstone's words were impressive and cited exactly which words. He did not say that Livingstone calling suicide bombers cowardly was.... and if he did, I missed it. Take what people say in the context they say it, not out of it.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,The Truthful memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Brits, your Moslem neighbors are plotting against you!

Your tolerance is probably going to be your downfall.

Tolerate the ones who want to defeat you.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

The last I read there were about 30 people dead--some of whom may have been Muslims; 700 injured--some of whom may have been Muslims. I cannot believe this thread has degenerated so. I am not British. However, if this had happened in Canada, and it well might at sometime in the future, I will beg my government to pull out all the stops, find those who did it, unleash JTF2, bring the killers to justice and send those who dispatched them to a better world--without benefit of trial.

The racists here who are blaming a whole people for what some sick bastards have done are the worst of sewer slime. A whole people did NOT plant the bombs. A few people did. Reserve your vitriol for them and their leaders.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Like all Americans, I suffered emotionally o 9/11/01. Let me pass on what I learned.

You will feel shock, horror and rage. You won't be able to sleep. Lack of sleep will then harm your moods and your ability to think clearly, so be extra careful at work and when driving, etc.

The bombing seems to be over. Turn off the TV and radio. The media survive by manipulating people's emotions.

Give a donation, the biggest you can, to an organization which is helping the victims. It may not be logical, but it will help soothe your racing mind.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

Actually if you read the whole Livingstone statement he did recognise that the kind of people involved in organising these kind of atrocities are often not afraid to die in the process of carrying them out -
"Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life. I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous."

But in fact I think it likely that Livingstione would have been making a reasonable working assumption that, on this particular occasion, these weren't cases of "suicide bombing" ,any more than they had been in the Madrid train bombings.   

It may yet turn out that this was a mistaken assumption, but I'd suspect that the people organising the bombings would wish to conserve their limited human resources, and would be more likely to use timing devices where possible. That appears to be how the London police are reading it too at present.

And I still think it was a pretty good statement, especially in the way it set out to derail attempts of racists to exploit the bombings. It's worth clicking on that link I gave and reading it in full.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

Current death count is 50.... it was 38 when I went to bed last night without counts from the bus. There are possibly more trapped in one of the trains, and they aren't sure if all the ones from the bus are accounted for.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

Incidentally, I don't think that the racist/sectarian trolling in this thread is necessarily quite what it seems. It could equally be someone who shares the ideology of the bombers, who is working away at trying to encourage the kind of anti-Muslim reaction they would obviously like to see happening. Either way it is best ignored.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM

Erm...as i said, it is USELESS TO BLAME ALL MUSLIMS FOR A MINORITY OF MUSLIM TERRORISTS that have carried out this attack.

It is not racist to condemn muslims however who have been seen celebrating the attacks in London. It is Sick Sick Sick.



Oh and anti-nazi league whoever you are you coward, please update your website, it hasn't been updated for 3 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahaha

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Well....I've been reading this since yesterday...felt too upset to post then....but I'm glad that I've come in right below this nasty message.

First of all, there is so much love and concern on this thread. DON'T lose that. DON'T let the people who want to hurt you and others get to you everyone. Just keep this thread as it started out....strong and filled with concern and love. Ignore them and they'll go away.

A few posts back 'Naemanson' said this:

"And then there are those who reject the future and the melding of the human race into one big family."

Those are some of the most important words on this thread. Remember them and don't rise to the bait you are being given.

We are all one family, one nation, one people and one world.

This joyful and terrible week has shown us both sides of human nature. We have seen the possibility, now being taken up, of new life being given to Africa and we have seen life being torn away in a terrible and unfeeling manner in one of the world's capital cities. We have also seen people at their best, rushing to help, being there, comforting, uplifting. People of all colours and backgrounds were killed, injured, shocked.....but everyone came together as one, no divide.

Please don't let this wonderful thread be brought down to anger and aggression. If you want to deal with the idiots who are now coming on here, then you deal with it with love. You make your posts become even more filled with hope and unity.

We need to change this world around so very, very badly, for our children and their children and for the terrorists children and their children too. No-one should have so much hate in them that they want to kill their own species.

We are all one people.

Keep the uplifiting spirit of this thread alive.

Please

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Also, to be fair if people want to discuss muslim intolerance there was a thread specifically geared towards that end/debate.

Let us end the bickering on here really simply accept this is a tragedy that has indeed killed people of all backgrounds and races in London.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,TF/NY
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

Yesterday's bombings in downtown London are profoundly disturbing. In part, that is because a bombing in our mother country and closest ally, England, is almost like a bombing in our own country. In part, it's because one assault may have involved a suicide bomber, bringing this terrible jihadist weapon into the heart of a major Western capital. That would be deeply troubling because open societies depend on trust - on trusting that the person sitting next to you on the bus or subway is not wearing dynamite.

The attacks are also deeply disturbing because when jihadist bombers take their madness into the heart of our open societies, our societies are never again quite as open. Indeed, we all just lost a little freedom yesterday.

But maybe the most important aspect of the London bombings is this: When jihadist-style bombings happen in Riyadh, that is a Muslim-Muslim problem. That is a police problem for Saudi Arabia. But when Al-Qaeda-like bombings come to the London Underground, that becomes a civilizational problem. Every Muslim living in a Western society suddenly becomes a suspect, becomes a potential walking bomb. And when that happens, it means Western countries are going to be tempted to crack down even harder on their own Muslim populations.
That, too, is deeply troubling. The more Western societies - particularly the big European societies, which have much larger Muslim populations than America - look on their own Muslims with suspicion, the more internal tensions this creates, and the more alienated their already alienated Muslim youth become. This is exactly what Osama bin Laden dreamed of with 9/11: to create a great gulf between the Muslim world and the globalizing West.

So this is a critical moment. We must do all we can to limit the civilizational fallout from this bombing. But this is not going to be easy. Why? Because unlike after 9/11, there is no obvious, easy target to retaliate against for bombings like those in London. There are no obvious terrorist headquarters and training camps in Afghanistan that we can hit with cruise missiles. The Al Qaeda threat has metastasized and become franchised. It is no longer vertical, something that we can punch in the face. It is now horizontal, flat and widely distributed, operating through the Internet and tiny cells.

Because there is no obvious target to retaliate against, and because there are not enough police to police every opening in an open society, either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists - if it turns out that they are behind the London bombings - or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way - by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.

And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

What do I mean? I mean that the greatest restraint on human behavior is never a policeman or a border guard. The greatest restraint on human behavior is what a culture and a religion deem shameful. It is what the village and its religious and political elders say is wrong or not allowed. Many people said Palestinian suicide bombing was the spontaneous reaction of frustrated Palestinian youth. But when Palestinians decided that it was in their interest to have a cease-fire with Israel, those bombings stopped cold. The village said enough was enough.

The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. When Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial novel involving the prophet Muhammad, he was sentenced to death by the leader of Iran. To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden.
Some Muslim leaders have taken up this challenge. This past week in Jordan, King Abdullah II hosted an impressive conference in Amman for moderate Muslim thinkers and clerics who want to take back their faith from those who have tried to hijack it. But this has to go further and wider.

The double-decker buses of London and the subways of Paris, as well as the covered markets of Riyadh, Bali and Cairo, will never be secure as long as the Muslim village and elders do not take on, delegitimize, condemn and isolate the extremists in their midst.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

Do we have any evidence that they were Muslim terrorists? Do we have ANYTHING to suggest their religion other than a spurious claim on a website from a faction that no-one in the Anti Terrorist squad or Muslim leaders had heard of?

Please, stop posting your anti Muslim trash on this forum.

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

The Door opens and they rush in falling over themselves to spout their hate Liz. Like you say before anything is known.

Please..Please, I ask you, as Liz asked you and as a few other Members have asked. Stop posting your anti Muslim trash on this forum.
None of us have any desire to read it. Please Stop it.
It is VERY unwelcome here.

Jude

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM

And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

The Muslim extremists are using this exact same rationale for their violent actions against western countries like the US and Britain, who have been bombing and shooting tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who are propping up brutal dicators in other largely Muslim countries. They are saying that by not adequately standing up to our politicians and making them stop, we, the innocent civilians of the US and Britain are just as responsible.

Personally, I think both premises are equally faulty.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM

Been listening to Clapton today

Further On Up The Road
by Joe Medwich Veasey and Don D. Robey

Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road,
Baby, just you wait and see.


You gotta reap just what you sow;
That old saying is true.
You gotta reap just what you sow;
That old saying is true.
Just like you mistreat someone,
Someone's gonna mistreat you.


You been laughing, pretty baby,
Someday you're gonna be crying.
You been laughing, pretty baby,
Someday you're gonna be crying.
Further on up the road
You'll find out I wasn't lying.


Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road,
Baby, just you wait and see.

ADRESS THE CAUSES OF TERRORISM!!!!

Otherwise it will be deja vu all over again

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Truthful Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM

Liz the Squeek, you win the award for either the most naieve or ignorant.

If it makes you feel better, it wasn't Moslems. It was that other sick extremist religous cult, roman Catholic nuns.

Face it, it was your jihad neighbors who you tolerate in your country in droves.

Want to get rid of them? Put a padlock on all of the mosques.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM

liz how do you feel about muslims celebrating in London about the attacks?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM

And someone accused ME of supporting the BNP..... looks to me like there's a new candidate.

I do not 'tolerate' Muslims. I accept them, I welcome them and I'm proud to include some of them as my friends.

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

That GUEST,TF/NY post is in fact a cut and paste from from the New York Times, an article by Thomas Friedman.

I suppose that label "GUEST,TF/NY" might have been itended to identify it as such and say where it came from, but if so it was a bit obscure, since it could have meant just about anything.

The generally acepted etiquette is to give a link and a quote, to avoid turning the Mudcat into a collection of articles by strangers who aren't in fact part of the discussion.

Unless of course our Guest in this case actually is the Thomas Friedman who wrote the article...

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

Considering how quickly the BNP have jumped on this and are opportunistically using it to promote their agenda, if I were the one conducting the official investigations into the bombings, I think the BNP would be one of the first groups I would be looking at.