Explosions in London

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

that doesn't answer the question Liz about how do you feel about some muslims in London celebrating in broad daylight the attacks? Don't you want to answer?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM

Again, why not allow this thread to continue as it started, and if someone wants to discuss muslim intolerance, such as cheering muslims in London after attacks then let them do it there?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:27 PM

A peaceful people soiled by lunatic religious fanatics!

My sympathy to the families and relatives of those murdered and injured.

When Oh when will this insanity end? It used be the UDA and the IRA, now it's any buggar with a chip on his shoulder. Can't they see that killing innocent people only makes our resolve the stronger to continue to be democratic and civilised!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:39 PM

America may not have had this problem before but the UK has experience of the unknown bomber for many years. During the time that the IRA were mounting their terror campaign no one could know whether the person sitting next to them on the train or bus was carrying a bomb. No difference in the colour of the skin then, just a different accent maybe and, in cities like London, that was not unusual.

The, as now, most people were aware that most of the Irish did not agree with the terrorists and I think that will be the case now. However, in the case of Northern Ireland, the disapproval of the 'village' made no difference. In fact, a friend of mine many years ago was told by the IRA "If you're not with us you're against us". He came to the mainland to escape the consequences.

I wish it was not so, but it seems that there is a small nucleus of people who HAVE to be right and nothing will make them move from their path of violence.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

if you revere the memory of Martin - remember him at his best when he was opinionated but caring about music, knowledgeable about guitars and occasionally very witty.

we used to put up with the daft stuff. if you want to say daft things, say it on your own account - and even better say it somewhere else.

we like our tolerant multi racial society. most of us vote for it. nice article by Tony parsons about the bombing in the Mirror today, which I think struck the right note. I didn't used to like him much - shows I was wrong, and should have been more tolerant.

Folkies should read derek brimstone's Til I was Twenty which has graphic scenes from the Blitz. I thnk its not a case of London taking it, the people just had to endure the unendurable.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:57 PM

The terrorism unleashed in London yesterday, together with the reaction of the British public, contrasts with the devastation brought upon Spain almost a year and a half ago.

I'd be interested in observations on the different reactions by the different publics, as the Spanish people changed government and announded a withdrawal from the allied forces in Iraq soon after their trains were horribly bombed.

Note should also be made of the continuing suffering of the Iraqi public at the hands of Arab terrorists.

In general, the terrorists win when they cause their victims to behave like terrorists in response.

Again, my best wishes to the Mother Country, Great Britain. I'll look around for a competent charity to donate, and if someone knowledgeable on the Eastern side of the pond can mention one, I'd be glad to know of it.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

At what point do we ask, "Why didn't Bush and Blair pursue the terrorists instead of invading Iraq?"

Saddam is history and all we have done is destroy a country and its innocent civilians. In the meantime, the terrorists continue to recruit and plan more violence. Maybe if we pursued terrorists with the same military might and billions of dollars, this could have been prevented. Instead Bush and Blair have put all of us at risk because they were unable to establish clear priorities.

I hold Bush and Blair responsible for what has occurred in London.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Not at this point.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,ObL Award
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

I hold Bush and Blair responsible for what has occurred in London.

Congratulations Dianavan, you have won the Osama bin Laden Award given to anyone who says its George Bush's fault whenever terrorists murder innocent people anywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:31 PM

"the Spanish people changed government and announded a withdrawal from the allied forces in Iraq soon after their trains were horribly bombed.

That invites people to misunderstand what actually happened in Spain. It's a lot more complicated than people being stampeded into panic voting by the bombing.

Immediately following the bombing in Madrid there was an attempt by the then government to put the blame on Eta and to pretend that the bombing had been carried out by Eta rather than by the jihadists, as an electoral ploy. Rather as if the British government were pretending this week's bombing had been carried out by Irish terrorists, regardless of the evidence, simply because they saw that as more electorally helpful.

This was so transparently a cynical attempt to swing the vote that it backfired, and caused a lot of people to vote for the opposition. There was also a far higher turnout of voters, largely because voting was seen as a way of defying the terrorists, and as in most elections, a larger turnout helps the left.

The outcome was that the Socialists were elected - and they had already made a firm commitment to pull out of Iraq if they won, in line with their consistent opposition to the war.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:35 PM

Actually, it was Bush and Blair that spawned AlQaeda and Osama bin Laden. They produced and supported these terrorists. The clerics of Iran claim that they are not Muslims but the illegitimate children of Western diplomacy.

Makes sense to me and this is why I blame Bush and Blair. Look at the history and you will see that these terrorists would never have existed if it weren't for the support they were given from their western allies. The fact that they are now enemies doesn't make either of them right. Both sides are wrong.

In fact, there are plenty of people saying that it made no sense to bomb London just when they were talking about pulling their troops from Iran. The only one to gain from bombing London at this time was the Bush administration. They will now, once again, have the support of the people in their so-called war on terrorism.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM



Are you living in some kind of fantasyland for people who love the terrorists who kill innocent people?

Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda was murdering innocent civilians long before either Bush or Blair was on the scene.

Right Dianavan, the United States of America, and dreams of freedom are the true root of all that evil in the world. That explains why so many people in Islamic countries, in former communist countries, etc. want to come here.

YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF WORK, YOU ARE!!!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

Osama was trained by the US government (CIA), and used by them as a proxy fighter agaist the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the cold war. He has used the training given him by the US to help him do his dirty work. GW Bush did not create him, but the government of the US did. So to the extent that what he learned from the US government has made him more deadly than he would have been otherwise (if at all), you can thank them for that.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:07 PM

Thanks Carol for explaining my thoughts so clearly.

Osama is the creation of U.S. foreign policy.

Like the Muslim clerics in Iran are saying, he is the illegitimate son of the U.S.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 AM

I visited London several years ago. It is a magnificent city. Part of it's magnificence is that you can stand on a corner and watch half the world pass.
What AlQaeda did was several different kinds of stupid. To kill civilians of all races and nationalities. To turn the attention of world leaders from global warming and the poor of Africa to terrorism. To create martyrs and make themselves villains to much of London was stupid stupid stupid!
My sympaties to the people of that great and gallant city.


Incidentally, if you can find a copy of Julie Andrews, "The Lass With the Delicate Air", you'll hear a wonderful rendition of "London Pride". Ms Andrews was a fine singer.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 AM

Yes, the first time I arrived at Heathrow airport, i watched as people of all costumes, creeds and colours walked along beside me. It was a wonderful introduction to the UK - and to a people who I admire for their democratic and legal systems that set an example to the world.

it is clear that it is plain to everyone in the UK why this has happened. they are still in the middle of it right now.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST, JB
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM

So many peoplwe are talking about Bin Laden as if he was conducting a war of terror singelhanded from some remote cave. This is really absurd as I am constantly reminded of the words of President Mubarak (spelling?) of Egypt when he warned that blackguard Bush about invading Iraq. His message went something as follows and I paraphrase:
"If you invade Iraq, you will create thousands of Bin Ladens".

Well that`s exactly what has happened and they are all over the place and the real BL is probably somewhere in his remote cave having a good laugh at how his hatred is effectively spreading. You see Bin Laden is not a person but a vile concept and product that unfortunately has been nurtured by the likes of Bush and Blair. I`m not even sure that this guy really exists at all. Winning the war on terror my arse!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Dianavan and CarolC;
During the Cold War, on the basis that "My Enemy's Enemy Must Be My Friend", there were a a number of alliances made with regimes that in other circumstances would not have been touched with a bargepole.
Don't forget that the US involvement with Bin Laden was in response to the USSRs totally unjustified invasion of Afghanistan and the a substantial part of the initial rise of Islamic Fundamentalism was due to that invasion. Mistakes the US and UK Governments have made, but not all the blame is down to them.
Liz;
Whilst I agree with your reaction to the Guest's provocative comments, I think the term "Islamo-Fascism" is an apt and appropriate description of the core elements of the current Jihad against us.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:50 AM

I know that this might sound terrible, but I do feel sorry sorry about what happened in London, but the media coveriage that they gave to what happen in London wass a bit over the top, I mean what about the 30 years of Killing in Northern Ireland, or if it had happened in any other city/town in Britian Somehow I don't think it would of got that much coveriage. It would be a quick, there was several explosions in Liverpool/Glasgow or whereever and now the weather.

But as I said it is sad that it happened.

But we must get on with life and not to dwell on death

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:52 AM

Ps

Or what is happening in Iraq

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:07 AM

well Tam I imagine that actually came into the terrorists thinking. My sources inside Al Quaida tell me the the original target was Grantham, but the bloke from the Grantham Journal was doing the photos for Stoke Rochford operatic society's production of Oklahoma and he couldn't be arsed to cover both stories.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:09 AM

Ireland was a very sensitive issue and was treated thus by the media, which has itself evolved and expanded since then. When the IRA (or whoever) had actions outside of Ireland - such as the Oxford Street bomb in McDonalds - they were covered fully and considerately.

Media coverage of everything has changed a great deal since the 1970's. Then you had the BBC, the ITN and some American channel if it was overseas, available to you, when they chose to broadcast it. Now, you have 24 hour coverage over something like 95% of the globe which you can access whenever you want to. Technology has improved so much that you can report on things as they happen. Images are shown now all day now, that even 10 years ago, would not have been shown before 9.00pm.

The media coverage given in Britain, to Thursdays' explosions was no greater, and a good deal less than that given to the World Trade Centre/Twin Towers destruction. I can't answer for other countries, but in Britain it was on 2 main channels, plus BBC News 24. There were other channels to watch and the radio stations continued to broadcast near normal programmes. Yesterday, although it was still a main topic, it was not dominating the whole bulletin.

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM

I put my hands up to being naive. However much I read, hear, see or learn, I admit I don't have any understanding how any person can harm another living thing. Understanding should make a difference in this world as we learn from the lessons we create, but I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

My thoughts are with all those affected by this tragic day in London and candles are lit in hope! So glad to hear that so many local Catters are safe, many thanks for all your efforts to keep us informed Liz.

Hil

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

for the most of thursday, the BBC, ITV, SKY NEWS, all they talked about from approx 12pm till Friday morning was the London bombings.

So somehow it dominate the news, as Tam the bam says what about the 3 thousand people that were killed in Northern Ireland or the soldiers and civilans that are dying in Iraq, the news has/had quickly forgot about them.

So sad about the London bombings but don't forget about the wars and past wars all over the world.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 08:20 AM

I remember blanket coverage of both Manchester and Warrington, although at that point the media weren't quite so 'in your face' as has been the case since 9.11.

There was also the major attrocity on 15 August 1998 in Omagh, that was given blanket coverage by the media. Brits were always aware that sectarian murders were taking place in NI on a regular basis, but it takes a major disaster to hit the news in a big way.

I don't think that this latest event has been given extra publicity because it is London, although London is a high profile city, as is New York. The media are just reacting to the public appetite for disaster, probably fostered by 9.11 and the tsunami last year.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

There's a silly season out there, too

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

I'm glad no Mudcatters were directly affected by the London attacks, but obviously there are now many people whose world was shattered by them.

The attacks were not only vicious and completely unjustified, but, as several posters have already noted, they will not even have the effect the terrorists wanted.

These terrorists don't even think--they should know that attacks on civilians do nothing but bond those civilians together more tightly in opposition to the attackers and their cause---as well as energizing the country's military to carry on the struggle. Historically that has virtually always been the case, the only recent exception being the Spanish railway attack, which was vastly different, for the reasons McGrath has cited.

I heard an extensive interview with a leader of the Moslem community in the UK on Thursday evening. He said that he and every other Moslem leader in the UK condemns all terrorism, and these attacks specifically. The more Moslem leaders make this sort of statement the better.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

An Australian journalist learnt this poem from his father, who learnt it while serving with the AIF in World War II. It is titled London Under Bombardment. It begins:

I, who am known as London, have faced stern times before, Having fought and ruled and traded for a thousand years and more; I knew the Roman legions and the harsh-voiced Danish hordes; I heard the Saxon rebels, saw blood on the Norman swords.

But, though I am scarred by battle, my grim defenders vow, Never was I so stately nor so well-beloved as now.

And it finishes:

The bombs have shattered my churches, have torn my streets apart, But they have not bent my spirit and they shall not break my heart.

For my people's faith and courage are lights of London town, Which still would shine in legends though my last broad bridge were down.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

Just trying to clarify things, sapper82. However, I think this statement by you is incorrect...

a substantial part of the initial rise of Islamic Fundamentalism was due to that invasion

By the time the US was no longer using the Mujahideen as proxy fighters, Afghanistan had been virtually destroyed. The country was in total chaos. The US government at that time did not see fit to stick around and help the people who had helped them. The US government abandoned the people of Afghanistan when they were most in need of help.

The Taliban arose as a solution to the total chaos. They were composed of former members of the Mujahideen, who now had no war to fight. They were mostly young men whose life experiences consisted almost entirely of warfare, and their sense of order and right and wrong was very warped by their wartime experiences. This accounts for quite a lot of their violent extremist practices. They created order and some degree of stability in Afghanistan. During that period, the US govenment endorsed the Taliban, and may even have given them some assistance.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

I've been following this story off and on since Thursday. First let me offer my condolences to the families of the dead and to the injured and their families.

Actions like this are why the war on terrorism must be won. I am no fan of George Bush but I am even less of a fan of those who war against civilians. London, We stand with you in this time of crisis. Neil

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

As the little boy with the black eye said "It all started when he hit me back."

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM

I read somewhere that this problem between Christians and Muslims goes back to the Crusades in 1099 when the forces of Richard the Lionheart butchered 50,000 men, women and children in cold blood. Yet, we now blame the Muslims for starting it.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM

I also love the way people in authority say "We will not be intimidated", and the like.

Be intimidated into doing what, I wonder?
Bringing justice to the peoples' of Palestine?
(as Bin Laden clearly pointed to as being the thinking behind 9/11)

Why should we need to be intimidated into serving justice?
I thought that was what Freedom and Democracy was all about.

Justice.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

If you love someone don't go out the door without telling them, you may never come back through it to let them know.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:39 PM

"I am no fan of George Bush but I am even less of a fan of those who war against civilians."

George Bush and Tony Blair have killed far more civilians than these terrorists ever have, including those of Septemnber 11th, let alone July 7th.

The military doctrine "Shock and Awe" is explicitly aimed at defeating and demoralising an enemy by means of an onslaght ionvolving high tech terrorism - a war against civilians. In the case of Iraq, in a country which, however unpleasant its regime, had at no time carried out any kind of military action against the USA or the UK, including the activities of Al Qaeda.

Seeking to justifying terrorism and atrocities by pointing at what the people you are fighting against might have done is one characteristic which is shared by the apologists of both sides. And, of course, by the people who actually carry out and direct the atrocities, whether on underground trains or in military command centres.
.......

I think that assuming that the bombers this week have any expectation of getting the UK to withdraw troops from Iraq is not reading their intentions correctly. I would think it more likely that those directing these activities would actually prefer to see the troops stay there, and continue to help strengthen the Al Qaeda ideology by their presence.

The other useful effect to be hoped for would be to generate discord between Muslims and non-Muslims on the streets of London and other cities, and to build support for groups like the BNP. Think in terms of chess, not football.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: heric
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

Here is an interesting project which includes an effort to translate foreign language blogs and assenble the results under subject category. It seems to require a LOT more work, but it is a wonderful idea.

Global Voices Online

("Muslim Blogosphere Reacts to London Blast")

(At present, the "Muslim blogosphere" seems to consist of less than ten blogs, all composed in English. But if the translators get to work. . . .)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Thanks for finding that, heric. It's a fascinating website. I think I'll be spending a fair amnount of time there, especially when the Mudcat is down...

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

so there are 2 of you....Tam the Man and Tam the Bam........

excuse me, if I have got you two confused with each other in the past.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_9_11_02fd.html

London Muslims "Celebrate" 9/11
Jihadist mullahs urge 1,000 followers to learn the murderous lessons of the WTC attack. | 11 September 2002

An obscene spectacle took place in North London earlier today. A thousand Muslims gathered at the Finsbury Park mosque to "celebrate" the bombing of the World Trade Center. The Metropolitan Police deployed a force 500 strong to protect the meeting, called "A Towering Day in History," from disruption.

A dozen or so menacing-looking men with kaffiyehs over their faces stood on the mosque's steps to prevent unfriendly journalists from entering.

The "celebration" began promptly at 1 PM, so that participants could applaud the action of the WTC bombers at exactly 1:46 London time—the exact time, a year earlier, when the first plane hit its target in New York. Chairing the meeting was Abu Hamza, an Egyptian-born engineer turned Muslim mullah, who presides over the notorious Finsbury Park mosque, where several of the detainees in Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay, captured fighting for the Taliban and al-Qaida, received their theological training. Hamza also reportedly recruited to the jihad Richard Reid, the would-be shoe-bomber who failed to blow up an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami on December 22, 2001. The good Imam is implicated as well in the training and instigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, under arrest on suspicion of conspiring with the 19 murderers of September 11.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

"It is the rantings of a lunatic like dianavan that Martin Gibson threw in the towel..."

Thank-you, I take that as a compliment.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM

Saturday Morning Scott Simon on NPR aired the Noel Coward song quoted above, and I do believe I recognized Sir Noel's voice as the singer.

There'll always be an England, and I mean that in a good way.

Regarding McGrath's clearly written response to my post re: the distinction between the Spanish people's reaction to the Madrid train bombings, and the English people's reaction, I believe that the details of his response are correct, but the point is missed:
Before the actual election, the truth came out that the bombings were the result of Arab terrorists, not Eta terrorists (so far as is known). The Spanish public thus had a chance to respond to Arab terrorism or the poor positioning of their own government. Since as McGrath correctly states, the opposition had stated that it would withdraw from the Coalition forces in Iraq, the Spanish public made the choice, as a response to overt terrorism, to vote for a party which they knew would withdraw. Whether this was primarilly out of reaction to the bombings, or a reaction to perceived governmental propaganda, it is sign of where their priorities lay.

Regarding Dianavan's laying the education and behavior of Osama Bin Laden at the doorstep of the United States, it is interesting to note that no one is laying anything to the doorstep of the Soviet Union, which tried to control its neighbor by political means, then by overt military means, thus spawning the most recent incarnation of mujahideen, who are by no means a new institution. Osama was at first a bankroller, then an outright combatant, and, finally, both of those and a leader besides. He has shown a gift for thinking ahead, charisma, planning, and a commitment to extremist ideals of his faith as he perceives it. One could liken him to an Islamic excursion of John Brown. The United States did not create him at all, and he certainly did not need funding, coming from one of the wealthiest families in the world. If he found a way to utilize anti-Soviet American aide, he certainly used it, along with a lot of other mujahideen.

Getting back to poor Afghanistan, the outcome of the Soviet Union's meddling with the government was to spawn a divided land of warlords, the Northern Alliance, and the Taliban. None of them were what we Westerners would call 'enlightened'. The Northern Alliance was undisciplined and committed what we would call 'war crimes' when they occupied territory. The Taliban was disciplined by comparison, less corrupt, and committed what we would think of as war crimes but they would call Islamic Law (which they got to define).

If you want an interesting insight into the era, the book "Kite-Runner" is set in that time and place.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

The US may not have funded him, but we did train him. Along with other people we used in Afghanistan as proxy fighters. They learned a lot of their tactics from the US. In that sense we did create him.

And you're right... the Soviet Union (which no longer exists, as we all know) was also responsible for what happened in Afghanistan. But the US (as the "winner" of the cold war), had an opportunity to help the people of Afghanistan when we were finished using the Mujahideen as our proxy fighters, and we did not. The Taliban filled a void that the US could have helped to fill in a way that would have been much better for Afghanistan and the world, but chose not to. The Soviet Union no longer exists, but we are still here, reaping what we have sown.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM

Do we have to have this discussion on this thread?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

Regretably, Jacqui, the same half-a-dozen or so people can always be counted upon to hijack any remotely related thread so that they can beat their particular drums yet again.

The BBC news is now talking about the desparate efforts being made in London to locate loved ones...at least one of whom is a devout Muslem...who have been missing since the blast. I can only hope that they are all found safe, in hospital, but I know that this isn't likely. Like all sane people, my thoughts go out to all of them, their families and their loved ones.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Travelled through London today, coming back from the Hampton Court flower show. The tubes and overheads were all subject to delay (at least the ones I used) due to 'security alerts'. But got there and back in the end.

Lots of extra police around the stations, all wearing those bright neon yellow vests, so very visibly visible, don't think they always used to wear them.

Less people milling about and a hushed vibe, but other than that business as usual. If not a little friendlier. Got chatting to a couple visiting from Boston and another from S.Africa, all extolling the virtues of London, but shocked that they hadn't been asked to have their bags checked by any security people.

I didn't really feel any more apprehensive than normal whilst standing in a London station, I was brought up in the 70's expecting the bins to bang at any moment.

But was hurtling along on the tube, and one of those flashes occurred, like they often do, very bright sparks coming off the tracks and lit up the side of the window where I was leaning my head, and it gave me a real jolt.

There are apparently bodies in the tunnel, as structurally it is unsafe to remove them, or get close enough to them yet. There families must be out of their minds with worry.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:39 PM

There's no way of eliminating all the dangers, but it is possible to reduce them.

And one thing that would make a hell of a lot of sense would be to bring back conductors on the buses, which would make it much easier to do something effective in face of a passenger acting suspiciously. (And bringing back conductors, for quite other reasons, was one of Ken Livingston's election pledges when he ran for mayor.)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 12:59 AM

I see this thread, which was intended to provide news on our brothers and sisters in London, has degenrated into finger pointing and name calling. The trolls and flamers have unleashed their weapons and are using them to try to get a rise out of the rest of us. And, by and large, they are successful.

When we feel the pain of all terrorist bombings, whether they are in New York, London, Bagdad, Kabul, South America, Africa, Asia, no matter where, when we feel the pain and respond with kindness and healing then we will have taken the first step to setting the terrorists back in their place.

The authorities will hunt down the particular guilty parties. It is not our place to seek vengeance. All we need is justice.

Those people who celebrate the bombings are not guilty of the bombings. They must feel they have reason to react like that. It is not our place to condemn them for dancing but to ask the hard questions. Why do they feel joy at the death and destruction in London? What is it that justifies such a reaction? Once we find that reason we can fight terrorism with the one weapon they cannot stand against, education and tolerance. This is what makes a civilization great. Wars and bloodshed have been the traditional way of handling international difficulties but this is not the same thing. these are people who feel they have been wronged. We need to go out among them and ask them why they feel anger. Then we can find the cause of terrorism and end it for good.

One other hard question is how many people were dancing? The media can make a small group look like a huge crowd. Always remember the purpose of commercial media is to sell soap, not tell the truth.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 02:03 AM

I am so glad to hear from the Mudcatters in London who are alive and well. My sympathy goes to everyone who has been directly affected and to their friends and families. Many, many more people have been indirectly affected. Many people now live with fear. It must be even worse for people living in war zones, who live with this fear every day.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:34 AM

Naemanson wrote:
"Those people who celebrate the bombings are not guilty of the bombings. They must feel they have reason to react like that. It is not our place to condemn them for dancing but to ask the hard questions. Why do they feel joy at the death and destruction in London?" end quote.

What bollocks! They must have reason to feel like that? It is not our place to condemn them for dancing to celebrate the bombings? Why do theyt feel joy?

You are either one seriously disturbed individual or a left-wing crackpot.

There is NO excuse for dancing in celebration at the bombings of innocent people from ALL backgrounds!

I said this before, and i will say it again, instead of using this thread to discuss muslim intolerance, why not move the debate to muslim intolerance thread, and leave this thread for its original purpose.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:36 AM

Please don't hijack this thread, stick to the topic or open another one if you wish to vent your spleens