Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,LTS on the sofa
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:00 AM

Soddit... if Elvis can do it on stage in Las Vegas BEFORE he got ill and Roy Bailey and Martin Carthy have both used crib sheets in concert, then it shouldn't matter a tinkers cuss who else takes the words in wherever. No one walked out on Roy Bailey to my knowledge.. but if that's your habit - to exit as soon as someone takes out a book or notes, then all I can say is you are very rude and have probably missed some damned fine singing.

As for choral works - I've sung in a choir of some sort or another for 35 years, both as a chorister and as a soloist.   I have sung pieces as diverse in size as the Messiah Oratorio and the Vicar of Dibley theme - using a score each time. Even as soloist, I have the score in front of me, be it a 200page tome or a single sheet, so the size argument just doesn't fly.

We have also performed pieces from memory - Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus springs to mind - in several locations, both formal and informal, with and without a conductor. Without a doubt, the worst rendition was the one without a conductor - our 'crutch'.. You see, crutches come in all sorts of shapes. Some are book shaped, some are guitar shaped, some are melodeon shaped, some are tankard or pint glass shaped and some are conductor or friend shaped. Whichever crutch you use, you should never be ashamed of it, and even more importantly, you should never make anyone else feel ashamed of theirs.

LTS

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:10 AM

"I never asked for your crutch
Now don't ask for mine"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:10 AM

I was in a singaround t'other week and someone was using a lap top as an aid, so what's the take on that !

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM

"Books in evidence but not interfering with the performance"
Do you honestly believe that using a songbook doesn't influence the way the Copper's sing - sorry, don't agree.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM

The Coppers don't bury their faces in their books, but use them to keep their words tidy when a lot of them are singing together. When a smaller number is singing they generally don't use them.

I feel that none of us is in a position to criticise the Coppers: they are source singers. Their way is not the only way, but it is a genuinely traditional one.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:32 AM

I agree that it is preferable to have learned the words and we both do that nowadays - however, we always like to give a song a trial run or two with the words usually in a small gathering where we know everyone.

This is to do things like establishing capo position - when you sing a song in public the key sometimes needs adjusting to something different to what it was running through it at home - also I write my own stuff and sometimes it will take me up to 3 weeks to learn the words if it's a wordy song due to advancing years, and a run through with words will gauge reaction and lead to a decision whether it's going to go down OK and sometimes leads to alterations- sometimes problems don't manifest themselves until you try out something in public.

As many of us are now in the Saga generation the rate of forgetfulness is increasing:-

"ask the audience?"

"phone a friend"

What does annoy me is when people spend the whole of the time when others are performing flicking through their folders of words. This is bad manners surely.

Learning the words enables you to really get inside a song and perform it rather than just sing it. Having said that I wouldn't ever walk out on someone just because they were using a prompt.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:03 AM

where in the folk club/singers 'rulebok' does it say that you shouldn.t sing from a songbook. What might be right for you, might be wrong for someone else.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:09 AM

I'd rather sing for them than at them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:24 AM

"I feel that none of us is in a position to criticise the Coppers:"
Me too - I didn't think I was criticising them, certainly didn't intend to. I was just observing that the fact that their singing from a book, when they do it, produces a number of effects in their final output.
From what I have read and learned in discussion, their manner of performance is far more than 'just keeping the words tidy", but a long established family custom.
The only other singers who consistently produce a similar sound on all their songs are those revival performers who have set out to borow from their style.
"where in the folk club/singers 'rulebok'"
Who mentioned rules - I was under the impression that people were giving opinions, albeit strongly held ones.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:26 AM

"I sing in pub sessions, I sing and play with my eyes closed, when I sing though I always have the words in front of me, I f people don't like it then tough shit, I go to a session to sing and enjoy my self. If people want to spoil my enjoyment of singing folk songs from a book then that is there look out. I am not a proffesional singer, I'm a bloke with a crap voice who enjoys singing and sod anyone who has a problem with it"

Me, me, me! What about the audience? Oh yes, "sod" them!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:57 AM

I don't agree with those who say "I'm not a performer, I just want to sing". Any time you lead a song, whether it's on stage in front of an audience or taking your turn in a singaround, you are a performer. You're not simply singing for your own pleasure, you're there to entertain, even if only to a small degree, the people around you. Audiences are generally sympathetic and supportive, but in return you have to make an effort.

Singing is a art, and a craft. There are skills and techniques which need to be learned. Remembering words is one of them. It's a skill which comes with practice, like any other. Unless you suffer from some neurological disorder you should be perfectly capable of remembering vast amounts of information. Unfortunately we live in a culture where we don't need to rely on our memory, because it is so easy to look up information we require in books or online, so our memory gets lazy. We are all capable of much more, it just requires practice and finding a memorising technique which works for you.

I don't have an especially retentive memory, but I am capable of remembering a lot of songs and tunes, including long ballads, because I've practised them. If I'm intending to perform them in public, I rehearse them beforehand, even if that just means singing in the car on the way there.

As for the person who asked if he is expected to practice a song 100 times before performing it in public - why not, if that's what it takes? No one said it should be easy.

Someone said an amateur practices until he gets it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong. Amateur or professional, if you're going to inflict your singing on other people in public then you should be prepared to put in the work, the study and the practice to do it to the best of your ability. Why should it be "good enough for folk"?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:16 AM

Excellent Howard - that really is what it should be about, and until it is folk music will never be taken seriously and will only survive on bookshelves and in archives.
Anybody can sing (our sadly, now demised cat, could give it a fair try) but it takes work to become a singer.
MacColl, (who, admittedly, was porone to exaggeration) said that it took three months from the finding of a new song to his performing it in public. I have no way of verifying the accuracy of his claim, but I do know several of us were singing his 'Alan Tyne of Harrow' in public before he did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RamblinStu
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:43 AM

I agree with the last two posts

Like it or not when you lead a song you are performing, so be as good as you can be, practice practice practice and then practice some more. If this gets boring, remember it will be boring for your audience as well. However at some point the song will "click" and you will be happy with it.

This is the time to start to sing it in public, you will enjoy it and the audience will enjoy it too, and this will increase your enjoyment

Strive for perfection, avoid mediocrity

So for me it's no books, but loads of practice

I'm off now to practice……

Stuart Pendrill

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

Well said Shimrod, I agree,

So Chris, look forward to seeing you and your book in the coming months.

BOOKS R US.

What's everybod's take on sticking a finger in yer ear when singing, whilst reading from a book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:19 AM

Down Muppett, sit !

You naughty boy you !!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

When I saw this topic on the list of threads, and saw the huge number of posts, I naturally assumed that one of the old threads on this question had been ressurrected, and figured I'd scroll to the bottom to read two or three recent additions.

Boy was I wrong ~ all these many comments have been made within the last couple of days! Which goes to show just how controversial a topic this seems to be (at least to some folks, or to some communities).

My answer: It's OK in some places, not at all OK in others. Suss out the venue first!

If you play an instrument to accompany yourself, of course, you can't hold a songbook at the same time. If the venue provides a music stand, it's probably OK to put your notes, book, binder, etc. on the stand.

Personally, as a performer, I resort to my cheat-sheets on some numbers but don't need 'em on many others. It's a way to expand one's repertoire more quickly, right? I do try to be subtle about it, just glancing down occasionally.

As an audience member, I am not at all offended by a singer referring to notes, but I do not enjoy watching someone read every line from a book. It's disconnects singers from listeners and looks at best awkward and at worst offensive.

If you are too obviously reading an entire lyric, not even trying to look up and engage your listeners, they are going to become uncomfortable. At best, they'll feel sorry for you; they are not likely to feel that they're being entertained.

When you find it necessary to use notes, perhaps you should try to get the crowd on your side with some kind of good-humored self-deprecating introductory remarks about not yet having the song entirely memorized, etc., and then proceed to REFER to your songsheet, trying not to focus on it constantly to the exclusion of your listeners.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: ossonflags
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM

No one came out the womb with a collection of songs perfectly honed.If it gets you going use a crib sheet or two, but always remember learning a song is like learning to drive a car.Pass your test and you are learning to drive; learn the words and you are starting to learn the song.

What I canott accept are professional musicians( whoever they are) using books/ monitors/ crib sheets.This is an insult to the people who have paid to see them. Would you go and see a play and the actors read from the script?

Keep at it Chris, I always enjoy your company in singaround or drinkaround and we all realise and respect the amount of guts it takes to get up and sing for the first time - or any time - to a crowd of people. Respect my man, keep doing it and more to the point keep enjoying it!!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:58 AM

At risk of appearing to contradict myself, I accept that crib sheets are sometimes necessary, even for professional performers. Sometimes you simply need a prompt for something which refuses to sink in, or sometimes you might get asked to perform something new (or long dropped from your repertoire) without sufficient time to rehearse properly. And not just singers - even professional actors invariably have a prompter in the wings.

For example, my band was booked to play for a dance, and we were asked to learn a number of tunes which were for specific dances. We didn't have much time, and they weren't in our usual style so we wouldn't be keeping them in the repertoire. We learned the tunes, but not as thoroughly as we normally would before playing them out, so we kept sheet music handy, just in case.

On another occasion I was asked to sing two specific songs during a gig. Again, I learned them specially for the occasion, but kept a prompt handy. In this case I had no opportunity to give the songs a "trial run" in a less formal setting, which I usually like to do with new material.

The important thing is, prompts should be used only when necessary, for prompting not reading off, and in such a way that the audience won't be aware of it - on the floor or against the monitor are good options.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM

"Would you go and see a play and the actors read from the script?"

Possibly yes. I think the term's something like a "staged reading".

Classical musicians usually play from music and get paid. Possibly the origin of folk musicians not using words and music lies in roots in pre-literate societies.

There are times when your mind goes blank, no matter how well prepared you are - I went through a phase many years ago when I couldn't remember choruses - so if I'm doing a singing gig I'll usually have the words with me just in case. When I played in a ceilidh band we never used music - just a tune list with keys, but for an RSCDC dance I'd always use music, as the custom there is for the dancers to stipulate the dances and hence the tunes.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 01:23 PM

Thank you Ossonflafs for your stout support Sir. That means a lot to me.

I never thought I would stir up such a hornet's nest with my question, but I am thrilled that I did because the standard of contributions and debate on here is fantastic!

I asked the question in all innocence and with no intention to be contentious or contraversial but I knew that I might have to duck behind the parapet occasionally!

"There are many wise and well considered opinions on this thread from all kinds of performers.I think it's a valid question and a wise decision to ask it" (thanks 'Joybell'),
And as 'Susan of DT' said: "I am pleased at the supportive tone on this thread"
I agree with Joybell and Susan 100%. I am learning so much from people who know the folk scene inside out and live it and breathe it every day of their lives.
The tone has indeed been mostly supportive and I am delighted by the generosity of encouragement and the many ideas and duggestions received on ways to learn songs, use prompt cards,how to sing from and not to a song book , use of repetition etc etc etc.

Thankyou everyone for your contributions to this thread.

You have doubly enforced im my mind what a brilliant bunch of people folk people are!!

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM

One group of performers who nearly always use sheet music is Scottish dance bands. Particularly when playing for country dance - the programme will usually include dances calling for specific tune sets, and there are hundreds of dances involving thousands of tunes.

This usually involves folders far too heavy for any music stand, sitting flat on an accordion case.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

If you are going to insist that nobody ever perform a song in public until they have learned it so well and practiced so many times in private that they can guarantee they will not flub the lyrics or forget verses when they do take it public, there's going to be one helluva lot less public singing done, from the best singers as well as the lesser ones.

Some of us would much rather not take a chance on having a momentary brain fart (to use a technical term) mess up the flow of a song than take the chance that someone will walk out because we have a lyric sheet in front of us as a cue card in case of such an event.

And for group singing, especially when it's a sing-along, not a rehearsed choir, having at least a lyric sheet -- and maybe even the "dots" too -- can be absolutely necessary if the lyrics or tune is not really simple, repetitive, and/or predictable.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM

Word to this post, Liz.

Liz The Squeak, on using "crutches"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

Word to this post, Liz:

LizTheSqueak, on "crutches"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM

I get the impression that to some people, in the UK at least, a song-circle/singaround is a fairly large group in some sort of commercial venue (such as a pub), in which each person takes a turn singing a song while everyone else listens more or less attentively...that is, there is a performer (who is a moving target) and an audience. In the ones in which I have participated in the US - in several different locations - the locale is usually somebody's living room and it is much more likely to involve group singing than a single singer and a bunch of listeners. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the very diverse set of opinions.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 02:09 PM

Howard,

"Unless you suffer from some neurological disorder you should be perfectly capable of remembering vast amounts of information."
This is true. But having something stored in your memory does not guarantee it will be immediately retrievable when you need it.   It is not that uncommon for someone to "blank out" on the lyrics of a song that they've not only learned and overlearned but may have performed before audiences many, many times.
Perfection is not guaranteed, no matter how long you've taken to memorize something.   Most artists use song sheets or the like in the recording studio; not having to be searching their memory for the next line frees up your attention to focus on things like your interpretation, sound, etc.

I can see practicing a song 100 times in private before you perform it in concert, but before you share it with a few friends at a small, informal song circle? Why??

The hardest lyrics for me to recall perfectly are often my own songs. That's because I've often revised some of them a number of times before arriving at my (currently) final version, so there's a lot of interference.   And if I want others to sing along with me, it's almost guaranteed that they won't be able to if I don't pass out lyric sheets (or even sheet music, if the tune or harmony is unusual).

"Someone said an amateur practices until he gets it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong."
Whoever said that is wrong.   There are few, if any, professionals who never make mistakes — whether they are doctors, teachers, mechanics, journalists, or musicians.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM

I was singing a song in a Dress Rehearsal last night - one that I have been singing for more years than I care to remember - and then, in the middle of the 3rd chorus - I totally blanked out.
It was because I was concentrating more on where I was on stage, than on the song!!!
It can happen anywhere, any time and with no warning - even when you know the song.

Tim radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM

Hi genie

< " "Someone said an amateur practices until he gets it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong."
Whoever said that is wrong.   There are few, if any, professionals who never make mistakes ">

True true.....but the professional knows how to cover up the boobs much more than an amateur.

This thread is very interesting but as often happens here we are not always comparing apples with apples.

Some comments are made about relaxed sing-a-longs and are then argued as if it were a paid guest at a concert and vice-versa.

I don't mind song books in relaxed surroundings but I don't particularly like to see them employed by professionals......although I know it is done.

But I wouldn't get up and walk out if someone did it. !!!

cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM

NO

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

I think the true professional is the person whose mistakes appear to be a part of the arrangement. I'd better say the professional quality because I know there are many armatures that are so good that they could be pros if they chose to live the life. The life ain't easy because like it or not it is a very competitive life. And it takes every edge you can develop to be a success as a touring performing musician and singer. The bar is awfully high.
        In the 20 some years that I have been going to Old Songs I remember only one single stage performance where sheets were pulled. These were shape note singers working from The Sacred Harp.   In the work shops for instrumental playing and shape note and ballad singing every one worked from the same sheets because it was efficient as a learning tool. Song sheets and books were used in the sing a round's at The Dutch Barn and in the group sings in the camps. But on the stage I can't recall a single individual, duo, trio, quartet who relied on sheets other than the Shape Noters .
        I'm sure you have seen Martin Carthy and The Copper Family and Elvis Presley using song sheets on rare occasions. At their level of performance no one is gonna tell them they can't. I am not at that level of the business and probably never will be.
        I'm still scrumming for gigs in the locals with the locals so I'm after every edge I can get. When I'm set up in a saloon and singing with Two Feet Short it is just Jim and I. We know the others moves so well we make the same mistakes at the same time. We don't use sheets because we don't need to. We can second guess the others next move. If I'm looking at a book I'm not flirting with the girls at the bar. I want to be remembered as the Dirty Old Man with nice voice and easy smile, not the bald head only seen over the top of a book. In my case competing with the young guys with the Dave Mathews style I need all the help I can get.
       I'm not trying to explain why people shouldn't use note books and sheets, I am explaining why I don't.

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM

Whatever works.
But, having said this, it's a helluva lot easier to reach your audience when you don't have a book in the way..

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:14 PM

I repeat... *IF* I can close my eyes and not tell whether you are using a help sheet or book, I have no problem. If it flows and sounds good, I'll be fine. I'd hope you can eventually do without a crutch, but just....PLEASE.. be able to sing it WITH the book.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM

Mike2,
I think you summarized the issues pretty well.

This discussion has gotten long, and I think we may have forgotten
SongBob's original post and query.

It was pretty clear to me that he was talking people singing in informal or at least unpaid settings, not professional gigs.

I agree with Bill D that if I can close my eyes and not tell whether a book or lyric sheet is being used, its presence is no more disruptive than teleprompters are when used by skillful professionals delivering the news or a speech.

And, Don M, I like the way you think! LOL

You're right, of course, that a true professional doesn't let the audience know it when they flub their lines or lyrics.
But, as I said earlier, every time you improvise, increase the likelihood of flubbing the line again. If the original script (lyric) was really good, this "folk process" will probably make the song (or play) worse, not better. That is one reason for using some sort of cue card. But if you use it right, it will hardly be noticeable or lessen the impact of your song.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

You are right Genie, I was talking about people singing in informal or at least unpaid settings, not professional gigs.
I am just a lowly folkie layman who enjoys a sing in fairly informal sessions, often on the 'fringe' of folk festivals in a more informal setting of a pub or a club room etc. So I guess the key word here is 'informal'!

I've only started to do a song or few myself in the past two years so I am still very much a novice at it.
But having said that I am fascinated by the view point and sage comments of all the professional and semi-professional performers here on this thread.
They have a lot of wisdom and years of hard fought experience which is invaluable and I think that even some of the old hands themselves are learning something from each other here in the many suggestions and techniques that have been discussed.

Hey, it's all good stuff folks!

And Genie, - who is SongBob ?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM

The original post was about singarounds in the UK folk scene. And yes, these are usually round-the-room with each person taking a turn to sing. The rest of the audience will join in the choruses, and sometimes if a song is well-known they may join in the verses as well (not always desirable if you're trying to sing a different version). Group singing as such is less usual at these events, in my experience, but at that type of event then shared songsheets are probably acceptable, even necessary. However I interpreted the OP to mean a solo singer taking their turn.

I still fail to understand why it should be regarded as too difficult to prepare two or three songs ready to be sung without the need for the words in front of you. Most folk songs are quite short, after all. In most cases you go to the event expecting to sing, and you should prepare and rehearse beforehand. Or is that too much to ask?

As for the longer songs, if you can't sing, say, Tam Lin without the words in front of you then imo you shouldn't be singing it at all.

I wonder if some of the singers who rely on books are setting the bar too high. If you expect to have 50 or so songs ready to performance standards the whole time, or not ever to repeat a song over a 12 month period, that's asking a lot. Most performers, amateur or professional, will have (I would guess) not more than a couple of dozen songs at most worked up to performance standard at any one time. They will know many more, and they'll be learning new ones, but they'll be resting those and they won't be ready to perform. Some they probably could nevertheless perform with little or no rehearsal, while others will require more work before they're ready to take out.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: dwditty
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:43 PM

nope

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:11 PM

If you asked me to perform at this minute, I'd say I had at least 138 songs I could do at the drop of a hat, and as I've said elsewhere I try to have 6 songs a week without repeating myself.

In the good old days, of course, I'd just ask the audience for a subject, and improvise a blues.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM

Dang it, Soldier Boy! I knew I should've gone back 3 pages one more time to check on your name. I remembered the S B - and I think maybe someone in another thread had used a name like "SongBob" - but I just guessed.
Wrong, obviously.   
My bad.    (blush)

Genie

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

"learning a song is like learning to drive a car."
This evoked a wonderful picture of somebody driving a car with a copy of the highway code propped in front of them!
In a way, the two things aren't that different - the objective of the driver is to get from A to B: the objective of a singer is (or should be) twofold; to recreate the song in order that you (the singer) get the maximum enjoyment out of is, and to communicate that enjoyment to the listener.
As a singer (at one time) I cannot conceive of being able to enjoy a song while being so worried about remembering the words, I need a crib sheet in front of me, (remembering words is a technicality, not part of the re-creation).
As a member of the audience, if I see a singer has to have a prop in order to get through the song my attention will be diverted to "willhe/she, won't he/she", thus preventing me from enjoying it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:47 AM

Coming back to the Coppers' "Sweet Lovely Nancy" video above, which I've only just found after a day or two away from this thread: I don't think I saw one of them so much as glance at the book he was holding. The books themselves looked rather like replicas of old Jim Copper's book that Bob & Ron used to hold between them as they sang — I suspect as a sort of family tradition rather than as an aide-memoire: don't think I ever saw either of them actually look down at it either. I suspect likewise that the present-day Coppers generation hold the books as a sort of 'family-tradition' prop, rather than to help in their singing.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM

I've seen the present generation live quite a few times (living about eight miles away) and the books are definitely used, but not allowed to interfere.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

NO it is not. Learn the songs and when they are a part of you then sing them out.
If you want to do that then stick to Shape Note as it is O K there.
It is not O K to sing from a lap top or a palm top scrolling at the "right" speed
The songs that you sing should mean something to you as it is the songs that have credence not the singer. As one of my favourite trad singers put it"Some people stand in front of the song whilst others stand behind it"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

Valmai - interested in what you say of the Coppers. Do you agree with my suggested reason, a couple of posts back, as to why they carry them but do not let them interfere?

Michael

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM

Don says: "I think the true professional is the person whose mistakes appear to be a part of the arrangement."

I'd go one further... sometimes my mistakes DO become part of the arrangement!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:41 AM

Not entirely, because they do glance at the books as they sing, although not for every song. The very important thing is that the books are by no means allowed to act as a barrier between the singers and the listeners.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM

>>>> Not entirely, because they do glance at the books as they sing, although not for every   song. The very important thing is that the books are by no means allowed to act as a barrier between the singers and the listeners.

Valmai

But - isn't just as important for the listeners to be ignorant of the books as a barrier?
It can all depend upon the pre-conceived notions of the Listeners.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:05 AM

I forgot to add the following.

I was at the Fo'c's'le Folk Club way back in 1972 'ish for a gig by The Copper Family, well just Bob & John together.
At the interval I asked Bob if they would sing a particular song in the 2nd half.
The conversation went thus:

Bob: "John, this young gentleman asked if we would sing.......(A Song)"

John: "Sorry Dad, we can't sing that tonight, because we don't have that book."

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

hi

A thought just struck me as we were debating this thread.

Is this reading from a book/sheets thing in folk clubs a new new phenomena??

Due to illness I have not been around folk clubs for some time. Before that I was involved with it for some/many years in one way or another.

I can hardly remember any singer at what-ever kind of session resorting to reading as they sang.

Could it be that in our time we either couldn't read or were too poor to be able to afford to buy books???

Or is this some form of recent explotation and pressure selling to we gullible folk performers??

just a thought.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

I don't. But the older, the more I sometimes see where a crib-sheet mightn't be a bad idea.

A small crib-sheet is not a book; and no music stands.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM

No worries Genie, you're forgiven.