BS: Sound of freedom ringing

Subject: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: mg
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:37 AM

I would like everyone who is interested to join me tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. your time to light a candle in observation of the elections in Iraq, and if you have access to bells, ring them out. Even a little tinkly Christmas bell..a cow bell, whatever. It is a momentous day that can go any number of ways as we all know and I am sure we can all hope for the best for all concerned. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:40 AM

oh GAG! is there really somebody so niave as to believe these elections are 'free'?

oh, I get it, U R being funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST,LMFP
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:41 AM

sorry, didn't realize I wasn't signed on. that was me gagging. I'll just use intials for now until I figuire out what my password is.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:48 AM

well it will be a significant improvement on Saddam Hussein whatever happens.

Anyway all mary g said was - let's hope. Hope is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST,LMFP
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:56 AM

Hope? oh please. (gagging again) I'm not trying to start a debate, but:

Who in their RIGHT MIND believes this 'election' is anything but a cleverly orchestrated farce by a desperate administraion (USA) trying to put on good show for the rest of the world. Better than Saddam? If Saddam was so freaking awful, why did WE, the USA that is, bankroll him for so long ..about two decades...and..might I add, sell him weapons when he was our errand boy during the Iran/Iraq War?

Ring a bell? riiiiiight. I might hit somebody over the HEAD with a cowbell if I saw them ringing one in 'support' of this fictious 'freedom' and if it makes a sound, somebody could assume I am participating in this silly exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:23 AM

No need to be all rude about your disagreement, pal. A little civility. The propped up terror-stricken pantomime of a democraticprocess currently under way in Iraq is a beginning. It is preferable to flat out civil war.

If it isn't pure enough for you, I can understand, but it is a step, if nothing more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:32 AM

Oh, joy. Another offensive twit.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:41 AM

Mary,

I agree with Amos, but hope does spring eternal. I will send a prayer for the people there and hope it does some good. Who knows? Might help.

O Guest LMFP with the big mouth and crappy attitude: You are a jerk.

(This givin' up using bad language on the 'cat can be a real a real tough decision to live with at times.)

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:55 AM

A sort of peace has been made with Martin Gibson. In the light of minor miricles like that, it's not too much to hope that the elections will be a significant improvement over what was before, and may do some good.

And on a related note, the thread title was intented to be reminiscent of "The chimes of freedom clashing", wasn't it. Our hopes have changed so much in 40 years.....


Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

Saddam Hussein was awful . A complete shit. He hanged a young reporter for the Observer newspaper. Cold blooded murder, absolutely unforgiveable.

we bankrolled him because he was fighting Iran who was doing all kinds of other awful things.

Thats what happens in a war. we weren't keen on stalin, but he was marching in the right direstion in the 2nd world war. so he became an ally. not a friend, not a decent chap, an ally.

whether the current war was right will be decided by historians. its a bit dumb getting all excited by facts that won't probably come available in our lifetimes. I grew up with parents who figured if stalin was okay in the war , Russia probably wanted nothing but our friendship and wellbeing in the cold war years. we've seen enough KGB stuff since the fall of the Berlin wall to know that wasn't the case.

Anyway we're in it. People are dying. Its a bit irritating pretending that you are in complete possession of what is going on.and that there are no moral complexities.

okay go back to gagging....

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:51 PM

Peace with Martin Gibson? who's sitting on him while he's getting duck taped? ;-) Seriously, I'm wondering when we'll have enough information to be able to draw a conclusion. And I'll pray.

Guest LMFP thank you for at least using a name. Having said that, I think this kind of thing is way past orchestration. It's a crack at history pure and simple, obtained at great cost. You don't have to like it, but think over whether those folk who brave the polls deserve your respect. They've got mine. Actually the greatest humiliation to the US would be if they vote in greater percentages than we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:51 PM

Anyone who believes these elections are the real deal probably is a TV wrestling fan and believes in the tooth fairy as well... These so called elections are as bogas as a three dollar bill;.

Don't believe me?

Like, frir all you folks who are gonna be out ringing cow bells, how about checking out just how amny "trained" ouside election inspectors will be in Iraq tomorrow. Okay, like take a guess. Okay?

Oh, you don't wanta guess? I see. Well ley me tell you how many:



























One! That's it fir the entire election and that person will spend the day where? Come on, this ain't like rocket surgery here. Where is the lone outside inspector gonna be?





















In the friggin Green Zone, unner his or her bed hiding! That's where!!!!

Free elcetions, my butt!

Okay, lets get a show of hands.

How many of you folks believe in yer hearts that this election is anything but a sham? Come on, be truthfull... Block out those soundbites that the Bush PT folks have cleverly spent your tax bucks constructing to make you think all this Apple Pie Crap... How amny of you actually think this is a real election???????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:37 PM

I believe, I do, I believe its true
I believe exactly what they tell me to
I believe I do, I believe its true
I'm a simple guy, I believe.

      - T. Paxton

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: hilda fish
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:19 PM

Sweet hope, faith, innocence! Ring bells if that helps you deal with an election that is being cynically described - and deserves it! Ring bells sweetly and innocently as we in Åustralia see the first voters do their free, wonderful, and effective voting here!    How the bells are ringing and life is changing - I think not. I saw a bit of graffiti on a wall in Carlton, Melbourne, in 1975 - DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD LET US VOTE IF IT DID ANY GOOD?   Ah, seize the walls, I thought. I meant it. So ring bells while I spit blood at the awful farce of dooming a people to more bloodshed. Or I guess I could make a really funny joke and we could all laugh?

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: mg
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM

I think it is a real election being held in a world of woe. Some of them will die in the process of voting. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:27 AM

A nation's very first election will not be perfect. All the future ones will be freer and better.
There appears to be overwhelming support for the election from the people themselves. They are marked for death, but turning out anyway.
Shame on those who rubbish their aspirations.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:20 AM

Afghan election thread.

Afghanistan had its first ever election a while back.
It passed unnoticed on this forum, so I started a thread next day.
Few bothered to contribute except to poke fun.
The people there turned out in defiance of the gun men who ordered them not to.
There has been much less violence there since. The gunmen have been shown to have no mandate with the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:21 AM

The US will rue the day it imposed this "gunpoint democracy" (as the San Francisco Chronicle's editor called it today) upon the Iraqi and Afghani people.

Someone above said that these elections were preferable to civil war. I would suggest this smoke and mirrors election is taking place in the throes of a civil war that has been raging for months.

Those of you who favor "spreading freedom" at the point of a gun, are fools, and dangerous ones at that.

So what will you say when a Shiite majority is elected, because the Sunnis boycotted the election, the new leadership tells the US to get out, and forms a cozy new relationship with Iran, and then forms a fundamentalist Muslim regional security coalition with Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:44 AM

Gun point election?
They have not been ordered to vote at gun point, but ordered at gunpoint NOT to vote.
They have defied the insurgents.
The insurgency is shown not to be a popular uprising.
The Sunnis are a minority. Many democracies have minority ethnic groups whose rights are constitutionally protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:02 AM

I'm bloody glad my Dad and his contemporaries went over on D-day and imposed democracy at the point of a gun - even if he was a dangerous fool in your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:02 AM

Oh please. You are preaching to your right wing choir.

"Intense security" means voting at gunpoint from BOTH violent miliarists on BOTH sides--the US/UK and the insurgency.

This election is taking place under US imposed martial law. There are American Bradley armoured vehicles on the streets, US troops on foot patrols surrounding the polling places, American Apache choppers hovering overhead, gun battles in the streets, suicide bombers blowing themselves and those around them up at the polling stations, mortar attacks--the list of violence is endless. That isn't what a "free and fair election" looks like to me. But what do I know? I'm an American voter.

Now, do I respect the Iraqi people who showed up to vote despite the threats? Sure. If I were an Iraqi I might do the same. Do I also respect those who refused to show up to vote? I certainly do, because if I were an Iraqi, I might do the same.

And those who didn't vote, BTW, includes the 4 Sunni provinces, who have the power to veto the constitution in the October referendum. Their streets are polling places, it is being widely reported internationally, were deserted, and no one was voting. Let's not forget about that, either.

Tomorrow, it is back to the civil war business as usual in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:04 AM

The exercise of the voting power in definace of terror and armed force is all by itself a rejuvenating and awakening experience and thousands of the people of Iraq have now experienced what it feels like to have a franchise. Much to their credit, thousands and thousands more have stepped out and cast their ballots in spite of fear.

This election was to elect and build a parliament which could take on the task of building a viable constitution.

And just holding it has done some good.

Sure, it has flaws and under the circumstances anyone expecting it not to would be unrealistic, but it was a tonic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:17 AM

They are getting to vote, but they have no control over their own lives, their resources, or their nation. That is classic textbook "sham elections".

The Anglo alliance is orchestrating this bloody charade. Many Iraqis do not know the names of the candidates, let alone their policies.
They have no control over their own oil, no authority over the streets of Baghdad, let alone the rest of the country, no workable army or loyal police force. Their only power is that of the American military and its 150 000 soldiers whom we could all see on the main intersections of Baghdad.

The big television networks were given a list of five polling stations where they were "allowed" to film. Close inspection of the list shows that four of the five are in Shi'ite Muslim areas - where the polling was expected to be high - and one in an upmarket Sunni area, where it was expected to be moderate. Every working-class Sunni polling station was declared out of bounds to the international press. I wonder if the lads at CNN and MSNBC will tell us that today when they show voters "flocking" to the polls?

No, probably not.

The "Iraqi" government paid unemployed young males to brandish Iraqi flags by the truckload, as they drive around Baghdad putting up the US paid for election posters, to "advertise" the election.

According to the story filed by Robert Fisk:

"The "real" story is outside Baghdad, in the tens of thousands of square kilometres outside the government's control and beyond the sight of independent journalists, especially in the four Sunni Muslim provinces which are at the heart of Iraq's insurrection.

Right up to the election hour, US jets were continuing to bomb "terrorist targets", the latest in the city of Ramadi, which - although US President George Bush and Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair do not say so - is now in the hands of the insurgents as surely as Fallujah was before the Americans destroyed it."

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:19 PM

Which flag are they using for Iraq now, this one:

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/may2004/iraq19631991.jpg

or this one:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2001915275.jpg

Or have they come up with another flag design that they are using now?

My opinion is that the answer to that question will tell us whether it is freedom ringing, or imperialism reigning.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Megan L
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:33 PM

A journey of a thousand miles begins with just one step however faltering that step may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:41 PM

Mary Garvey, I will say a prayer for freedom in Iraq. I am hearing there are record turnouts of voters.

I believe that says quite a bit of what those people want.

The ones who piss and moan want to see this fail because it will make them happy that America failed.

Guess what? It could just be a success.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:51 PM

it's safe to ring those cowbells now. If I had one I would tie it wound my neck. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM

Whatever the election result, it is a better country for it. Let us hope that they will create a better nation because of it. It took 11 years of peacefull debate after 1776 before the 13 colonies could agree on a document now known as "The Constitution"

Iraq has not even known democracy for any length of time, let us not spoil an historic moment for them, by inane vacuous ranting on Mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:18 PM

God, you people are gullible. The propaganda and lies really work with you "let freedom ring" cheerleaders.

And people wonder how it is that Bush got re-elected. Read the Iraq election threads, and see how many posters are mouthing the propaganda platitudes about the "great success is being able to vote" and "inspirational Iraqis" bullshit being peddled on CNN.

CarolC, I like the "imperialism reigning" thing. Thanks for that, and for not caving in to the American tendency towards right wing smiley face politics as usual of the majority here. It's a real relief to see that there is still a sane minority around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

I'm willing to hope that ordinary Iraqi show the incredible courage needed to vote. Certainly they'll have hardly a clue of the candidates they are voting for, and there will be a long period after the vote in which the militants will challenge with guns and bombs.

The militants appear to be making a tactical mistake in threatening those who would dare to vote rather than keeping the focus on the occupying troops and the Iraqi police and troops.

Martin, welcome aboard for civil debate.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:32 PM

They aren't voting for anything meaningful though, so what exactly is the point of getting all teary eyed over their voting?

What, exactly, are these Iraqi elections being held for? Do any of you even know what the purpose of these elections are? Or are you easily swayed by American democratic nationalist sentimentalism about voting, that if a rigged, corrupt, or sham election takes place, you just don't care because it's just nice and inspirational that people bother to vote?

So--who can explain what the purpose of today's Iraqi elections actually is all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM

I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

Let's hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

Oh yeah, and please, while you are at it, explain why it is so damn inspirational to vote when ordered to do so by occupation authorities who have declared and extended martial law to get through the election period?

God knows, the Iraqis have no place to run, because their borders and airports have been closed, curfews imposed, and travel by car banned.

And of course, they have to be able to show that indelible ink on their fingers to the occupation forces tomorrow, too. And if they don't have "the mark" of voting, what do you suppose will happen to them? Not that they have ANY reason to fear what the occupation forces would do to them...

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:57 PM

I didn't know they were ordered to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:11 PM

Yeah well, the Salvadorans were never ordered to vote either. Just told that there would be consequences for not voting--or at least getting their papers stamped by the polling stations.

So let's see. There is a visible mark being made on the hands of each and every voter in Iraq. Each polling place is being guarded--literally--by US and Iraqi occupation forces. Guns, choppers, tanks, the whole shootin' match (pardon the pun).

Allawi, the interim prime minister "asked" and "urged" and "pleaded" with Iraqis to vote (depending upon your news source).

Reuters points out that:

"The Iraqi interim government imposed extraordinary security restrictions to try to safeguard the polls, closing land borders and banning travel between provinces banned. An extended curfew was imposed in most cities from 7 p.m. to 6 a.m."

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM

first time I've been accused of being right-wing. In England I am regarded as slightly to the left of Pol Pot.

however you REALLY do believe you know whats going on, don't you guest. Its a common delusion. Have you considered politics as a career - you would be able to indulge your fantasies to the full.

Anyway if you're a guest, you should respect our house rules and stop insulting us. We've all decided to try and be nice to each other - see mudcat nastiness thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:37 PM

See what I mean, GUEST... Many of these folks have allready drunk to coolaid...

One actually suggested that Afganistan's election signaled the beginning of democracy there!!! Ha... Outside of Kabul, you have warlords still runnning what they ran prior to the US invasion and you have Taliban making back into their enclaves... Some democracy, they fot there...

Oh yeah, I'm prepared to watch the news tonight. It oughtta be real entertaining since the Bush PR team has had months to prepare the scripts. Think I'll just get out my American flag and wave it as I watch.

Lets face it, Bush has lied repeatedly to the American people about why the US had to invade Iraq... Each lie has been found out and now it's the "democracy" lie. It too will be found out hust as the others.

You know, I think I could have accepted (but not supported) Bush if he's just come to the American people in the first place and said "My fellow Americans, I've decided to invade and occupy Iraq because it will secure oil for our nation and make me a war president so that I can get re-elected so that my corporate sponsors can fleece all you dumbasses". Yeah, that, at least, would have been honest.

But no! All we get is one lie stacked on top of another... I mean its so danged rediculous that if you sifted thru the various lies you'd be hard pressed to get back to the first one...

Might of fact, for extra credit, can anyone name the first lie? See what I mean?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:53 PM

I know Bobert, I know. Hell, even Peter Jennings, Mr. Mainstream Media Head coming to us from Baghdad last week said "The Bush administration is expected to declare the Iraqi elections successful, regardless of the outcome..."

But still the dumbasses get all nostalgic and teary eyed about how lucky the Iraqis are that we "liberated" them from tyranny (uh, so what about that martial law thing?) just so they could vote for nothing.

Now everybody wave your US flags and repeat after your fearful leader:

"we are hearing the voices of freedom ringing" in these "free elections".

Actually, these Iraqi elections cost WAAAAY more than the US elections. Billions and billions and billions of dollars more than US elections.

But hey, purty soon we'll have 'em trained to vote just like we do, and we can cut those elections down to maybe say, oh $100 billion a year or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM

Good on, Mary. Don't let these "doubting Thomases" rain on your parade. It has been a historic day that the lefties prayed (well they would if they prayed)would be a collosal failure.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:29 PM

What makes you think watching four *selected* polling places in Bahgdad a successfull slection? What you will see on the news tonight is nuthin' but propaganda. Like GUEST has pointed out, soon as martial law is lifted, the civil war will be back on full speed.

No "doubting Thomas" about it!...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:57 PM

martial law is far from tyranny. It is inconvenient, expensive, costs businesses etc. But sometimes it is unavoidable. If we got rid of the tyranny and kept the martial law, which is what I would have done in the first place for as long as it was needed, but not one minute longer, they still would have been better off. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:08 PM

Define tyranny, mg....

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:17 PM

Naw, define how far martial law is from tyranny! That's what I'd like to know (I one upped ya there, Bobert). Just how is it that martial law has been in place for going on 90 days, people can't leave the country (which means they are kinda sorta being held hostage by their so-called government), be out past curfew, drive their cars, move from one city to another, etc etc.

Civilians are being indiscriminately killed by trigger happy, terrified American kids who won't ever recover from some of the horrific things their government is having them do in the name of "loving freedom" or Iraqi suicide bomber kids with nothing left to lose, and you mary garvey, want to split nose hairs about martial law not being exactly the same thing as tyranny?

Why if I were an Iraqi, I might just tell you to go sit at the right hand of yer Xtian Satan, mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

Martial law is when you can't go out past curfew, have to show ID every 20 paces, can't drive in certain areas, etc. Tyranny is when you still can't do those things and they put you in the paper shredder. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM

You stickin' by your over simplified defination of tyranny, mg? If so, how do you explain folks voting in certain areas because the felt if they didn't they would be suspect of being part of then resistence movement? And please, if yer gonna provide a bumper sticker length response, don't even bother...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:21 AM

"Duck" tape! Hee hee!

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

wee little drummer wrote:

"I'm bloody glad my Dad and his contemporaries went over on D-day and imposed democracy at the point of a gun - even if he was a dangerous fool in your eyes."



I'm right wing in Boston and left wing in Anchorage, your comment is perfect. Full marks!

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

Sixty per cent of that population, according to the press, came out and cast a ballot.

All by itself that is a huge step. Do not undervalue it.

The fact that it was reached through the most insane of all possible paths of action is a different issue.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sound of freedom ringing
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

We really won't know for a week or so what the real turnout was, if we ever do. I agree that the Bush PR machine has been gearing up for this election for weeks and the scripts have been carefully combed. However, THEY really can't force people to vote, and it does take courage to place your life on the line to do so.

So if the turnout were actually 60% or so, I think it would be a resounding victory for the people of Iraq in itself. It's not exactly democracy but it's a lot closer to democracy than anything else the Iraqi people have experienced, at least since the 1950's when we staged our last coup.

The conservative media is certainly celebrating, It will be very embarrassing if the actual turnout figures are more like 40%. But some will say we'll never know the actual figures.

And there's a lot more work to be done in Iraq. I do think the militants made a strategic mistake by threatening prospective voters. They've isolated themselves even further from their base, with the possible exception of die-hard Sunni.

Charley Noble