How short can a note be?

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:50 AM

I have heard the effects of missing syllables in speach and a lot depends on context because something that is missing in a familiar passage (say speach) might not be where the stress of recognition lies, or it might sound like a glottal stop and stand-out. In terms of music - with a familiar genre &/or a tune it will be more obvious but if it was Karl-Heinz Stockhousen (in a John Cage) how would you know? And that is before we consider the listener, as has been mooted.

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:03 AM

I resemble that remark, Amos!

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:16 AM

We once had stereo radio in our kichen with only one speaker.

It happened when we moved the speaker from one corner to another and the brain kept hearing it from where it had been as well as where it actually was.

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:21 AM

Well there seem to be some fairly well defined limits in amongst the replies so thank you.

The more I think about it the moreI realise that there are huge problems in setting up an experiment to produce a sound that actaully is the length that you want and avoiding complications of prolonging the sound with echoes. You would have to use a high quality in ear earphone I presume and even then you would have to check that it didn't have a decay vibration after the note stopped.

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 07:36 AM

You would have to do the experiment in an anechoic chamber.
I suspect that the time threshold- the shortest note of which the pitch was detectable, would relate to the frequency of the note, but also to the quality of the mental processing of the listener. I know sound engineers who can detect a "flam" the difference in timing between two supposedly simultaneous sounds as little as 2 milliseconds. From experience, I believe that this is a learnt skill not an inborn talent.
The brain is known to be capable of massive interpolation in the process of making sense out of deficient data. The Law of the missing fundamental illustrates this. One can determine the pitch of a note from hearing the harmonics that one would expect to hear accompanying a note note, even when the fundamental frequency is missing or filtered out, and only the harmonics are played.

Below the time threshold, like Wolfgang's textbook says, any sound is perceived as a click.
And Joe, in America, in Jazz and Rock music, musos tend to use the numerical values of notes Quarter, Eighth, Thirtysecond etc.
Can't be doing with strings of synonyms for half.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: redsnapper
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 09:22 AM

It is certainly possible to perceive a sound with a duration of 10ms (1/100 s) but characteristics such as pitch or timbre will only be resolved by most subjects when the pulse width is within the optimal range (say above 25ms or 1/40 s) and more so when the sound is repeated. Frequency is also a factor as mentioned by Wolfgang above.

RS

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 08:16 PM

And, on top of the excellent info above, is the trick used by most digitally-reproduced music, whereby only some frequencies (out of the collection that would be recorded and discernable in an analogue recording) are recorded. The ear (brain, actually) "reinstates" much of what is "missed".

I suspect a similar "ability" is at play in other circumstances, such as where relatively elderly musicians can perceive frequencies even though age has removed those elements in the cochlear that are required to detect such frequencies. The ear's/brain's ability to detect harmonics plays some part in this but the effect persists for pure tones for some musicians.

But I'm not sure whether minimal "duration" affects this.

And, for frequencies below 26Hz, the human ear is known to be able to detect the sound but not discriminate between pitches; I have no information about minimal durations here, either.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,OLD - TIMER
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 03:27 PM

The infinite brevity of a note is constrained only by the limitations of our human and scientific resources.For example the illustrious Professor De Selby of "THE THIRD POLICEMAN "fame , proved beyond all scientific doubt that the point of needle extends many inches beyond where the human eye percieves it to end---such is the acute and fine pointedness of most stitching needles that the invisible point can be detected by a finger prick, frequently many inches away from the visual tip. This is convincingly more evident in the case of surgical needles.This same therom can be successfully applied to our human &scientific audio limitations.

Q.E.D.