 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Cultural genocide
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:44 AM Israel is far from perfect, but it has much to teach the Middle East – and, indeed, the world – when it comes to religious tolerance and promoting acceptance of LGBT people. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:48 AM Iranian human rights activist, Shabnam Assadollahi, explains to VOI's Molly Livingstone why Israel is often called out in the media and the United Nations for violating human rights, when Iran and other Middle East countries are engaged in blatant human rights abuse. Shabnam spent 18 months in an Iranian jail as a 16-year-old. Shabnam and her family fled to Turkey and finally ended up in Canada, where she is committed, as a journalist and activist, to educating about the real Iran. Listen here |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM "It was abundantly clear that IDF commanders had gone beyond any mandates that international law requires to avoid civilian casualties," writes Stern. He reported how Dabla attorneys have to sign off on a "target card" for each airstrike on terror targets, with the cards enumerating all of the relevant data about the planned strike. In contrast, the Hamas "doctrine manual" captured by the IDF in the Shejaiya neighborhood early last August documents how the terror group urges its fighters to embed themselves among civilians in hopes that the IDF will kill civilians. "Hamas's playbook calls for helping to kill its own civilians, while the IDF's playbook goes to extreme - some say inappropriate - lengths to protect innocent life in war," reads the article. Int'l Legal Experts Slam IDF - For Over-Warning Gazans |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:01 AM Address the facts and figures given instead of lying and distorting Jim Carroll Israel's War on Palestine: It's Bad, but Is It 'Genocide'? August 13, 2014 Charles Davis "It's heartbreaking to see," said US President Barack Obama of the death and destruction his government has helped the state of Israel deliver to the people of Gaza. It's "really heartbreaking," said US Secretary of State John Kerry of the nearly 2,000 innocent people killed by the Israeli military with weapons provided by the US government. "The loss of children has been particularly heartbreaking," said Susan Rice, US Ambassador to the United Nations, of dead little boys and girls—more than 400 of them—being stacked on top of one another in a freezer meant for ice cream because Gaza's morgues are overflowing with corpses. There are a lot of words that one could use to describe the collective punishment of a stateless people living in what a top United Nations official describes as an "open-air prison," but "heartbreaking" is perhaps the most inadequate, suggesting that there's a certain tragic inevitability to Israel's bombardments of Gaza, to which the only proper response is a shrug and a shake of the head. It's acceptable to lament Israel's killing of innocents, but the repeated bombing of UN schools packed with thousands of frightened civilians is, according to the harshest respectable critics, a strategic error—a case of "good intentions" paving the way to hell on Earth for Palestinians—not a reason to withdraw support for the settler-colonial project in Palestine or to "delegitimize" the idea of a state explicitly founded on ethnic supremacy. Israel's brutality is, of course, tragic, and the killing of babies is never a good look, but it's more than just heartbreaking folly. "It is a moral outrage and a criminal act," according toUN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Widely viewed as an ally of the US and Israel, Ban nonetheless has labeled Israel's deliberate targeting of UN schools in Gaza a "gross violation of international humanitarian law." Amnesty International has likewise accused Israel of committing "crimes against humanity" over its targeting of hospitals, ambulances, and first-responders, saying the state should be referred to the International Criminal Court for prosecution. And Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of "blatantly violating the laws of war," with the group documenting numerous instances in which Israeli soldiers went out of their way to shoot fleeing civilians. But no Western official has called the terrorizing of 1.8 million people living in Gaza an "act of terrorism," though it is openly intended to bring about political change and punish the people of Palestine for electing the wrong leaders. And while you'll hear the word at protests, the leading human rights organizations have refrained from calling it "genocide." Defenders of Israel will say that's because it's the wrong word to use. Writing in the Jewish Daily Forward, New York attorney Inna Vernikov goes with Merriam-Webster in defining genocide as "the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group." That's inappropriate with respect to Gaza, she argues, because Israel isn't to blame for the killing—the Palestinians are. Absolutely, the "people of Gaza are under siege and are being denied basic rights to freedom, movement, education, and life," but Vernikov argues that it's their own fault: "Those rights are denied them by their own government, which they selected for themselves." While "you made me hurt you" is a favorite of abusive spouses and nation-states, even dusty old international law—drafted by the world's most abusive powers—holds that innocent civilians may not be killed for the crime of voting the wrong way, though as with many other things criminalized by international law, that has of course happened, usually at the hand of the imperial powers (and de facto jurists). Journalist Michael Wilner also believes it's wrong to use the "G-word" with respect to Gaza. "Genocide is what happens when a people are discriminated against, corralled, and led to slaughter," he writes in the Jerusalem Post, a paper published in the state of Israel—a state that bulldozes Palestinian houses while giving subsidized homes to American settlers of Jewish descent, ethnically cleansed 80 percent of the indigenous population upon its founding, imprisoned millions in militarily occupied ghettos, and just slaughtered one out of every 1,000 people living in Gaza. Wilner means to suggest what Israel has done isn't as bad as some other terrible things in the world, but a bad thing need not be the worst thing in the world in order to still be a bad thing. "It's important to remember that you don't need millions of dead bodies and a Nazi industrial system of extermination to constitute genocide under the relevant convention,"writes Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy, a Washington-based media watchdog. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocidedefines "genocide" as inflicting on a group "conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." As the very title of the treaty suggests, a genocide need not be anywhere near completed—the destruction need not be "in whole"—for genocidal behavior to merit the label. What matters is the motivation, not the body count. "While conflict has many causes, genocidal conflict is identity-based," says the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide, an expert on such things. "These conflicts are fomented by discrimination," as well as "hate speech inciting violence." Now, consider: Israel is a state that openly discriminates on the basis of identity, denying Palestinian refugees the ability to visit their old villages in what is now Israel while granting citizenship to anyone with a Jewish mother who wants it. Israel is a state where the deputy speaker of parliament openly calls for replacing the indigenous population of Gaza with Jewish settlers, and where a leading newspaper just published an article titled "When Genocide Is Permissible." It's the sort of place where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu feels comfortable calling the 20 percent of the population that isn't Jewish—the indigenous people who weren't pushed out—a "demographic threat" to apartheid, their continued reproduction posing a serious challenge to continued ethnic supremacy west of the Jordan River. So why are people afraid to use that word: "genocide"? Amnesty International spokesperson Natalie Butz said that the language her group typically employs is "war crimes and crimes against humanity," which she said both sides in the conflict have committed (though with a wildy varying degree of success). She said that "we want the situtation referred to the International Criminal Court, which is the international institution with jurisdiction over war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide," but did not respond when asked why Amnesty doesn't refer to Israel's actions as "genocidal." Human Rights Watch was also reluctant to explain its linguistic decisions. Their press office would only say that the group "condemns Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza but does not refer to its actions as genocide," which I, of course, already knew because I asked them why they do that. Not getting very far by asking the groups to explain themselves, I turned to Ali Abunimah, publisher of The Electronic Intifada, a news site devoted to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "The popular definition tends to make people automatically dismiss or diminish claims that anything short of Holocaust-scale extermination of human beings can be considered 'genocidal,'" said Abunimah, author of The Battle for Justice in Palestine. By using the word "genocide," some may simply be looking to avoid appearing insensitive, to avoid the appearance that they're equating an awful situation in Palestine with one of the worst crimes humanity has ever known, the genocidal killing of 6 million Jews. Indeed, some might point out, and many people do, that the slaughter in Gaza isn't even the worst contemporary case of mass murder. Syria's civil war has left more than 100,000 people dead, with atrocities committed by both Bashar Assad and the rebels fighting against him. But that's a civil war being fought to preserve a regime's hold on power, not to eliminate ethnic minorities. It's horrific, but it's not genocide—it's a fight for power, not a fight to extinguish an ethnicity—and, crucially, there's no shortage of people willing to condemn what's happening there. It takes no courage in the west to condemn the crimes of the Syrian government or, for that matter, the Islamic State. Israel, on the other hand, is supported by a super power that gives it a $3-billion-a-year allowance for weapons that it then uses to carry out war crimes. It has nuclear weapons. As journalist Max Blumenthal argues, Israel's not David but Goliath—and right now it acts with impunity. It's not just the thousands of people—Palestinians—that the state of Israel has killed over the years in its regular assaults, dwarfing the handful killed by Hamas's rockets. Israel has, for decades, been carrying out what Israeli historian Ilan Pappé describes as an "incremental genocide," one that has since 1948 seen Palestinians steadily removed from their land, their homes destroyed, and their families forced into fenced-in refugee camps, for no reason other than that Palestinians were born to the wrong mothers. "It's been going on for a long time, the killings, the incredibly awful conditions of life, the expulsions that have gone on [since 1947], when 700 or more villages in Palestine were destroyed, and in the expulsions that continued from that time until today," said Michael Ratner, president of the left-of-ACLU Center for Constitutional Rights, in an interview with the Real News. "It's correct and important to label it for what it is." And that label, he said, is "genocide." It's in these types of situations that the supposedly civilized nations—the ones that go to war for petroleum, not to ethnically cleanse—are supposed to invoke their "responsibility to protect." In Libya, that meant dropping bombs from the safety of the sky and leaving it worse than it was before. No one wants that. Israel should not be bombed. But Israel can be prosecuted for being an apartheid state carrying out a slow genocide. Western governments can stop blocking legal actions aimed at providing consequences for genocidal behavior and stop giving Israel the weapons it uses to slaughter Palestinians. At the very least, Israeli leaders should be as afraid to travel abroad as a Bashar al Assad or Dick Cheney, fearing that at any airport, at any time, somone could come up to them, slap on some handcuffs, and carry them off to a war crimes tribunal. But it's best not to wait for the political establishment to act. Indeed, it's all too clear that the United States, the country in the best position to protect the people being bombed by its client-state—which has a responsibility to do so—has no intention of protecting any Palestinians. It's up to the people, then, to make Israel a pariah, something that can be accomplished in part by calling its behavior what it is. There's a lot of war and evil in this world, but kicking people out of their homes and bombing them because of who they are—because they aren't the same ethnicity—has a specific name: "genocide." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:39 AM The "Palestinian" Refugee Industry Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are "people whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict". Not only that – UNRWA's definition encompasses also the descendants of the original refugees, as we can see from UNRWA's own website. There does not appear to be any basis for such a sweeping definition in the UN resolution which established UNWRA and it would appear that this definition was a later development. Once again, when it comes to the Israel-Arab conflict, the goalposts have been moved and just like the concepts of "genocide", "ethnic cleansing", "apartheid" and "democracy", so too the word "refugee" has been re-defined. "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees able to "bequeath" their refugee status to their descendants. Furthermore, "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees in the world to have a United Nations agency dedicated specifically and uniquely to helping them. UNRWA has a staff of over 25,000 to deal with some 5 million "Palestine refugees". Of these, 99% are locally recruited "Palestinian" Arabs. No wonder it has become politicised! In contrast, UNHCR deals with all the other refugees in the world (about 33.9 million persons in 125 countries) with a staff of less than 8000! It seems clear that UNWRA has become a self-serving organisation, which has helped to perpetuate the "Palestinian refugee" problem rather than to solve it. THE VIEW FROM THE PALACE |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:52 AM Jim, "UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185" These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel. They are the descendants of those displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948, many voluntarily in the expectation of returning behind victorious Arab armies to become the beneficiaries of the newly deceased Jews' properties. A greater number of Jews were displaced then, but they were quickly settled in the tiny and overcrowded sliver of land that is Israel. Millions of ethnic Germans were displaced fro E.Europe in 1945, the greatest number of refugees ever created. All quickly settled. The Palestinian's Arab brothers refused to settle them or give them any citizenship rights so that they and their numerous descendants are still refugees well over half a century later. No ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel. You lied Jim. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM The Palestinians' Arab brothers... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM "the number of "Palestinian" refugees in the aftermath of the Israeli War of Independence was estimated by the UN as between 711,000 and 726,000. UNRWA itself puts the figure at some 750,000. At the same time, over 800,000 Jews fled Arab lands, most of them settling in the fledgeling State of Israel, which absorbed them with not one dollar of aid from the United Nations. Compare this to the Arab states which kept their "Palestinian" refugee population in refugee camps." Ibid |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM "These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel." You asked where they were going - you have the answer Another reminder "Their report states that as of January 2010, there are 1,396,368 registered refugees in camps and 3,370,302 registered refugees not in camps." You have where they are going, but no doubt, you will continue to ignore it Even the Holocusrt survivors have described what is happening as "ethnic cleansing" - leaving you a 'Holocaust Survivor denier' "You lied Jim." You are incredibly stupid to behave the way you are in public You have denied and ignored facts - press reports, film, world-wide opinion, and you have based your whole case on a liee - that Israel; has the support of "decent countries" for its behaviou - this, even though you have been presented with world-wide condemnation of them You#r claim makes the U.S., Britain, members of the European Union.... "indecent countries - add to this list Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Jews For Justice, Rabbis For Peace.... every single human rights organisation has condemned the Ethnic Cleansing that is taking placce If the article above is correct, 'Genocide' might well be added to that charge, that's what Israel's behaviour borders on "The United States today condemned Israeli plans for new settlements in the Palestinian territories as "provocative" and running directly opposite to moves Washington believes are helpful to peace and stability in the region." "The settlements, which are illegal under international law, have been at the flashpoint of the six-month Palestinian intifada or uprising against the Israeli occupation that has killed almost 470 people, most of them Palestinians." "The European Union has also expressed concern today over the Israeli plans and renewed its condemnation of the country's settlement policies in general." "All settlement activities are illegal and constitute a major obstacle to peace," the Swedish EU presidency said in a press release. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-condemns-israeli-settlement-plans-1.379715 UN investigtor accuses Israel of Ethnic Cleansing Israel's Ethnic Cleansing Haaretz Images for Ethnic Cleansing Ethnic clensing and Apartheid UN IThe History of Ethnic Cleansing in Israel - Benny Morris and others We are washing our hands of Ethnic Cleansing - Ireland Call for ethnic cleansing - Israel's Deputy Speaker Don't you fdare call me a liar when I am repeating what people around the world are saying I think were done and dusted on this one Want to try another item from my "page of gibberish"? UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185<'font> Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM The UNRWA refugees are not evidence of ethnic cleansing, and they date from over sixty years ago. YOU CLAIMED, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" THAT IS A LIE. NONE ARE BEING CLEANSED OUT OF ISRAEL. NONE ARE LEAVING. THEIR NUMBERS IN ISRAEL ARE EXPLODING. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM This really is like watching a train crash. I can see exactly where it is going and what will happen but I am gripped by a strange compulsion to watch. Probably makes me a very bad person :-( |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:49 AM ""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"" Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt. You have had the evidence of Arabs being forced out, you have had the world analysis (even from "real" investigators who probably sell their books in "real" bookshops) You have even been given evidence that this has always been the aim of Israel and the first mention of "cleansing" Israel of the Arabs was by the father of the state, David Ben Gurion - can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that Some quotes "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech. "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." -- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982. "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... "We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985. "There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" -- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." -- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine. "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." -- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" -- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58. "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." -- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969. "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." -- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971 "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." -- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988 "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... -- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000 "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." -- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000. "I would have joined a terrorist organization." -- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998. "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online Can we take it that you don't intend to show us where I went wong in my "page of gibberish"? Don' blameyou, to be honest Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 15 - 02:44 PM ""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"" Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt. The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING! No Israelis have become refugees for over sixty years, so you lied that people are being ethnically cleansed NOW. No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country. Israel would not stop them but they all want to stay. If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:06 PM "The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING!" Yes it is, and if you care to read down the quotes, you will see that ethnic cleansing hs been on the agenda since day one - if you can't see it, everybody else can. You've also given the number of the refugees which have been driven out You my wish to continue to make a fool of yourself - It seems to be what you are best at. Perhaps you might like to move on tho the massive discrepancy between Israeli and Palestinian casualties - this is as boring as it gets Have a good day day now "Israel has conducted bureaucratic warfare on Palestine since the 1993 Oslo accords, Buttu insisted, and has an "erase and replace" policy for Palestinians. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the residency status of 15,000 Palestinian Jerusalemites, including 106 last year. It's treating Palestinians as if they're immigrants to their own land, she lamented." February 2015 Jim Carroll Israel's gone way beyond Apartheid |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:21 PM No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century. No decent government accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing, any more than they accuse it of war crimes or massacres. No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country. Israel would not stop them, but they all want to stay. If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jun 15 - 07:46 PM "No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century." Gone beyond that you - your extreme display of mindless stupidity has blown any chance of you ever being taken seriously again However, you have my gratitude. your thick-headed repetition of your indefensible argument led me to digging deeper into bits of Israeli history I was somewhat vague on. My family were always fim supporters of the State of Israel, though my father was often disturbed by the aggressive attitude towards the Arabs, who he believed, had as much right to their homeland as did the Jews - he put that down to opportunism - taking advantage of the superior military ability of the Israeli fighters. He dierd before the outbreak of the Six Day War, and went to his grave still a firm supporter of The State of Israel. I have always gone along with that, though I totally lost faith in their leaders as Israel's terrorism developed. As it turns out, ethnic cleansing was part of the plan from the very beginning - Ben Gurion made that quite plain. "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. Ben Gurion recognised that the Palestinians were the rightful owners of the territory and that the Israelis were the usurpers. Even having recognised this, he instigated a programme of ethnic cleansing as far back as 1937: "We must expel Arabs and take their places." WHATEVER COLOR YOU CHOOSE TO PAINT IT, THAT WAS A DECLARATION OF AN INTENTION TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ARABS OUT OF THEIR NATIVE LANDS sixty eight years ago So all your talk of the Palestinians being the aggressors and the Israeli only defending their rights is (as you are fond of saying) a load of bollocks Of course the Jews have a right to a homeland, but unfortunately, Israeli extremist regimes have decided that it is someone else's homeland they have decided is theirs. It is Israel who are the extremists and the Palestinians who are the defenders -that has been the case for decades. You will almost certainly ignore this, as you have ignored every other fact put up - doesn't matter - it isn't for your benefit. My thanks for your help in filling in a gap in my ignorance. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:26 PM What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith? We have plenty of time, so, if you would, address them one at a time... (Cue the noisy sounds of breath not bring held...) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 07:00 AM Jim, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" No it is not. You lied. As soon as we get that straight we can move on to the next issue Steve. What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith? Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens, which they have no power to do even if they wanted to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:06 AM BDS Is about Hating Israel, Not Helping Palestinians http://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2015/06/bds-is-about-hating-israel-not-helping-palestinians/ June 11, 2015 | Mudar Zahran Those intent on boycotting and delegitimizing the Jewish state only feign that they're motivated by concern for Palestinians, writes Mudar Zahran: It seems the anti-Semites of today can easily claim "we love the Palestinians" instead of saying "we hate Jews." This method has been championed by the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel. BDS is dangerous for all of us and could severely harm the West, the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular. As a Jordanian-Palestinian, I have witnessed firsthand that most BDS movements do not care [about] the Palestinians. . . . I have personally approached several known BDS [organizations] asking them to boycott many Arab countries for the way they treat my people, and not one time did I find even an iota of interest. . . . When weighing the facts on the ground, the call to boycott Israel is rather ridiculous. Israel is the largest employment provider for Palestinians. Almost every single friend or relative I know in the West Bank works for Israeli businesses, some even inside Israeli settlements. This by itself is evidence of how little BDS cares for Palestinians, because if Israeli businesses shut down because of BDS, how would the Palestinians make a living? Let's not forget [that] the only Middle Eastern countries that allow Palestinians to work unconditionally are Israel and Saudi Arabia. All other countries [in the region] impose extreme conditions on the employment of Palestinians. . . . Still, you never hear the BDS movement even mentioning any of those countries. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:57 AM Funny, but sad: Undercover Reporter Reveals Irish Businesses Willing to Buy From Iran, North Korea While Refusing Israeli Products |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:05 AM "June 10, 1967, marked the end of the Six Day War and the beginning of the radical left's hate affair with the Jewish State. Although Israel neither welcomed nor wanted this conflict, the Left declared that Israel, not the invading Arabs, had been 'militaristic,' 'colonialistic,' and 'fascistic.' Was Israel really that bad, or was the Left biased, twisting or ignoring inconvenient facts to fit a prepackaged verdict – and has been biased ever since?" The Six Day War, and the Origin of the Left's Hatred for Israel |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM From last link, "Gaza pales compared with Yarmouk, where Syrian soldiers and ISIS decapitators inflicted unspeakable horrors on Palestinian refugees – to no outcry from the Left. Israel was not involved in this catastrophe. If it had been, her critics would have gone ballistic." "Chaos now envelops the larger Middle East, with no end in sight. A peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is more remote, more elusive, than ever before. The radical left is hardly alone in failing to foresee the Arab Spring and its horrendous consequences. But it is accountable for providing vacuous and dishonest cheerleading when the Palestinians needed wise and honest counsel. Now, with the broader Middle East in turmoil, it might be too late." "For nearly fifty years, the anti-Israel left has been committing crimes not just against Israel but against the Palestinians – and the entire peace process." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Greg F. Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM Hey Goofball, how many times ya gonna play the same old tired "antisemite" card? Don't you ever get tired of your own bullshit? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM "You lied. " If I lied, then so dd The Holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for peace, David Ben Gurion..... and all those who have condemned Israel for its behaviour towards the Palestinian Arabs Ben Gurion actually states that their aim was to cleanse Palestine of "We must expel Arabs and take their places" This goes from mildly irritating to worryingly bizarre - it's like talking to a parrot - words but no intelligence. You have had the plan for Palestine clearly stated - an Arab Free country. Deal with it or accept it - there is no alternative. Opposing Israeli terrorism is not to be against the Jews and it is Antisemitic to suggest it is - Israel is not "the Jews" and some of its strongest opponents are Jewish. Israel has betrayed the Jewish people, not it is blaming them for crimes committed by the Israeli regime. In a way, Israel is like the former Soviet Union - a beautiful dream turned into a nightmare by falling into the wrong hands. Comparing what happens elsewhere is totally immaterial - Israel, by its very actions, is a terrorist state. Anybody wishing to prove otherwise has either to show that Israel didn't do what it has proved they did, or what they did is acceptable - anything else is crap. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:30 AM "Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens" "We must expel Arabs and take their places." " David Ben Gurion - the father of Israel You lied Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." (Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, 1998.) You lied again, Keith. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:29 PM Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead. It is also a lying misquote of what he really said. "We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs." Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25. You said, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" Note PRESENT TENSE. It is a lie. The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians. You lie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:46 PM It is not a misquote. The stuff you quote was largely crossed out. Defenders of Ben Gurion claim that someone else did the crossing out much later. Sure. Ben Gurion made several other references to the need to expel Arabs, or that they could use the excuse of a war in which to do it. Do wiki, Keith, before you start calling people liars. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM As for the present tense, well what about the expulsion of Bedouins from "unrecognised villages" in the Negev, bulldozing a mosque and their homes? Still happening as we sit here, Keith. How much more present tense do you want? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:59 PM That quote was made in 1972. It appeared in Porath, Yoram Bar, Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972. It was never said by Sharon or any Israeli politician. "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" Note PRESENT TENSE. It is a lie. The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians. You lie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM That quote was made in 1972 by Yoram Bar Porath. It appeared in Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:25 PM The lie about that quote originated with Max Blumenthal on Twitter a couple of years ago and has been repeated by Israel haters, of which Steve is the latest. http://blog.camera.org/archives/2014/10/how_max_blumenthal_lies_about.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:19 PM "Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead." That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel - he died in 1973 and is still revered by most Jewish people, though some are now questioning his wisdom and tactics His statement has been reiterated by many Jewish leaders and his advice was being followeed from the birth of the Israeli state by Israeli "Freedom Fighters hurling hand grenades into the occupied homes of Palestinians The is ethnic cleansing It wouldn't matter anyway - he made the statement he did - you have the quote - I don't have to tell lies to stupid people Ben Gurion also said that conditions should be created to allow Arabs to leave of their own free will That is ethnic cleansing EVERY ONE OF THE THOUSANDS OF SETTLEMENT THAT HAS EVER BEEN CREATED BY DRIVING OUT THE LEGAL ARAB OCCUPANTS IN ORDER TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS IS AN ACT OF ETHNIC CLEANSING Ethnic cleansing by removing all Arabs and replacing them with was the aim of the founders of Israel - by peaceful means, war or terrorism - little example of the first, decades of them of the other two. Israel is at present attempting to drive Palextinians out of their homes - go count the rapidly increasing number of illegal settlements - PRESENT TENSE. "Israel was again accused of ethnic cleansing yesterday, which is not an uncommon concurrence in the Middle East, but this time, the accusation was made by a widely respected Jewish United Nations official. Prof. Richard Falk, a "rapporteur" for human rights violations in the Palestinian territories, charged that Israel's policy of continuing to build new settlements in the Occupied Territories and revoking residency permits for Palestinians living in Jerusalem bore "unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing." Etnic Cleansing From the US BY ALL MEANS The attitude of the Israel regime towards Arabs is comparable to that used by the Nazis of the Jews HATE SPEECH By the way - you deliberately took your David Ben Gurion quote out of context and, equally deliberately 'forgot' to either quote your source or link it I suggest you real it in full: BEN GURION Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:30 PM That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel No it was not. He never said that. I gave you what he really wrote. If he had said that back before Israel even existed, it would still not justify your lie, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" They are not and never have. You lie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:05 PM Yes - did, and you have just been given it again in the Hate Speech Why are you doing this? You have not responded to one fact put up You have ignored every single statement by Britain, by the U.S, and the U.N., by groups like Amnesty, Human rights Watch, by writers and speakers from all over the world - including Jews and particularly from Holocause survivors - all have condemned Israel's policy as Ethnic Cleansing and Apartheid. You claim that I have lied - if so, they all lied, you moron.... You have been figures of over five million refugees and of 351 villages depopulated by Israeli action and you still deny what is now being reported weekly - Israel is carrying out a poliicy of Ethnic cleansing and has done since day one of the state being set up. Now you edit statements to attempt to show that what was there in the first place wasn't You are a religious fanatic defending extremist Zionism and you claim to be a Christion - you aren't even Jewish You are insane, or you think the rest of us are Eben the Bullying Brigadier and the Brucie the Troll have backed away from your argument. GET HELP Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Greg F. Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:08 PM Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead." Ya see, Jim, its like them there dead historians who don't count-dead Israelis don't either. They have to be LIVING Israelis who are also Eminent Israelis, whose works are in BOOKSTORES, who write for the tabloid press and whose views coincide with those of K Ah of H. Understand it now? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:12 PM Will someone make it stop? Please! :-( |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Greg F. Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:22 PM Still in the inexorable grip of that strange compulsion, Dave? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Musket Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:28 PM If only Israelis didn't look so Western... Just think Keith, if they were a few hundred miles South East, they'd be prone to grooming girls instead of kicking the fuck out of their neighbours eh? Bigot |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:48 PM Mindless abuse can not alter the fact that no Israeli citizens are being cleansed out of Israel and none ever have been. It might get the thread closed and spare your humiliation though. Jim's statement "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" is false. They are not and never have. You lie. The quotes attributed to Sharon and Ben Gurion are both shown to be faked. The enemies of Israel make up lies and gullible lefties like you people believe it all without question. If any Arabs have been cleansed out of Israel, who were they and where did they go? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:01 PM "Everything that's wrong with the modern Left: the UK's National Union of Students rejects a motion condemning ISIS, yet passes a motion boycotting Israel href=http://t.co/a0oGGc52Go Forget saying Israel is worse than ISIS, anyone who even entertains the idea that they're equally bad, is frankly insane"- Maajid Nawaz |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:28 PM "Understand it now?" Shit - I forgot that Jim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:01 PM Holocaust survivors letter LIARS ALL "We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia. Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water. We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Jeri Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:06 PM I hope the bizarro usual way of things here isn't lost on those not involved in this thread. Something started with "Chief Justice says Canada attempted 'cultural genocide' on aboriginals" turned, via the Usual Fuckwits, the Mudcat Fight Club, the Keith and Jim show (although that leaves a few people out) to be about the middle east, Jews & Arabs. Stupid, insensitive, unable to focus on anything anybody else might want to discuss--why do you think anybody else wants to hear this shit... again? Oh yeah--you don't care, because it's all about you... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Musket Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:25 PM Better than it being all about.. Err where was it again? Oh yeah. Canada. Canada. Hang on, don't help me. It'll come to me eventually... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:42 PM Bloody stupid post, Jeri. Are you a moderator? I've never quite worked it out. If you are, that post is beneath you. Anyway, to the substantive. Keith, for the third time, the attempted expulsion of the Bedouin from the Negev is ethnic cleansing by any definition you'd care to provide. And it is very much present tense. Five hundred homes destroyed this year alone. As for my being an Israel-hater, your frustration is badly showing. My many posts on this topic, should you care to explore instead of being wilfully stupid, would reveal to you that I support, reluctantly I admit, the continued existence of the state of Israel. I strongly support the Israeli people, who I believe have been serially hoodwinked by their leaders, and I hate the fact that they are subjected to the long-term insecurity that their stupid regimes manage to rain down on them. I've said these things in many a thread here until I'm blue in the face. The Israeli people have the same right as everyone else on the planet to expect peace, security and prosperity. Unlike you, I happen to think that that should also extend to Palestinians. That's the difference between us. So, basically Keith, you can sod off with your idiotic Steve-is-an-Israel-hater crap, if you don't mind. If you say stuff like that ever again I shall have to consider calling you a bloody idiot. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:54 AM No it is not Steve. All countries have planning laws and move people who ignore them, but only within the country. In tiny, tiny Israel they can't get moved far. I have discussed resettlement before. I accept it is an issue, but it is not this one. Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" That is a serious accusation, BUT NO EVIDENCE AT ALL HAS BEEN PRODUCED!! Decades old quotes that are fake anyway are not evidence. Let's see evidence of people already cleansed out of Israel, or quotes from the current government or any other decent government about it. You never will because the accusation is just another lie against Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:59 AM Jeri, I do take your point, but it was Jim who raised the subject of Israel again. My guilt is to be unable to resist challenging false propaganda, and once it is on the thread, that is reasonable I think. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM And Jeri, some people are not interested in the issues, just in "winding people up." Musket - PM Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:55 PM Reight. Back on after Mudcat bonking me out. (ironically the other two Muskets dont get that problem and have been winding people up nicely in the BS section I noticed.) |