Chords in Folk?

Subject: Strike a Chord?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:13 PM

"English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained folks, with telling &/or dancing, via the repetition of relatively simple TUNES." (me)...polyphony and chords were found, rather, in church and court..?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:38 PM

Times change - live with it!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:47 PM

No, Captain, I think I'll just keep singing and playing the TOP-LINE MELODY, and enjoying the performances of those folk who do the same.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:59 PM

So now chordal harmony is destroying civilization?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:01 PM

I feel pretty strongly that tunes/melodies include implied chords (harmonic structure) whether or not any such "arrangements" were ever written, and whether or not instrumental accompaniment (or even additonal vocals) is present for a given rendition. That's just the way I hear music.

It might be argued that my sense of musicality is influenced by the fact that I play guitar, but I didn't take up the playng of that very "chordal" instrument until I was a teenager. I had been singing harmonies for many years before then, and the sense of finding a "correct" or fitting harmony definitely implies a simple chord structure.

One pedantic argument that really annoys me is that sea shanties could never have been sung otherwise than in unison. First of all, no recordings exist that could possibly support or refute this ridiculous assertion. Secondly, my observation of general group singing among living people is that some folks are incapable of singing in usision with others. I can't imagine that a group of sailors would not include a member of two singing an expressive but dissonant countermelody, and several others improviding some sort of more cenventional harmony, if only because their voices couldn't reach the notes required to sing in true unison.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:16 PM

I'm quite sure there was/is call-and-response in shanties, PG, but, again, I think it would have been just the relatively-simple tune...they were often working to the rhythm as well, yes?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:17 PM

It's the polyphonic, choral trousers that are the real problem.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:22 PM

And open field farming sustained the peasants for centuries while the nobles ate lavishly. I don't think I'd like to go back to a diet of maize, oats and turnips.

I can't understand this argument that traditional music must be played as it was centuries ago. Traditions by their very nature grow and develop and take on the influences of the time. If they do not live they are not traditions.

So bring on the chords, the electric instruments, the brass, the jazz synchopation, the Asian and African textures and rhythms. These are the influences of our times. Enjoy it and celebrate it for crying out loud. Don't pickle it!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:29 PM

Here's a word for you, WAV - heterophony

Look it up.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:36 PM

And watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Y_tuSsCXw

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:43 PM

It's widely accepted that for centuries it didn't change much - singing unaccompanied, repeating a tune for dance; and, I think, not just because there was not much other entertainment available to these folk, or the pride that they took in their tradition, but because just the top-line melody played or sung well sounds great.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:34 PM

I absolutely cannot believe that people never sang in harmony in the "good old days." Of course, I can't prove my point ~ but neither can those who hold the opposite opinion.

One thing that I do believe is that common people throughout the ages, when they sang and/or played music for their own enjoyment, did not concern themselves with arguments over whether or not their performances authentically duplicated those of their ancestors.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:56 PM

"It's widely accepted that for centuries it didn't change much - singing unaccompanied, repeating a tune for dance"

Really? Widely accepted amongst whom? Certainly not amongst music academics.

Cite your sources.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:59 PM

Have you ever sung any rounds? They've been around for centuries, and the reason for them is the chords.

There was a chap who printed book(s) of rounds in England in the 1600's. The name eludes me now, but the rounds were great hits and went through many printings. They are still being sung today.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: JeffB
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:02 PM

Wow! Viper, that's wild! It's been a long time since I've heard singing that prickled the hairs on the back of my neck quite like that. Thanks very much indeed.
A top-line melody might sound great on its own, but put in a snarly dissonant drone and you've got a very different animal.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I like hearing chords although for example I'm not sure whether I prefer this accompaniment or this one to the same tune (the Swedish Jig bit).

--
From a playing tunes in a session point of view, I really do like a guitar playing chords in with the tunes - a good one can really help keep things together and give a clear rhythm to follow.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:13 PM

Can someone tell me why it matters how things were done in the past?

Surely communication of the songs is paramount. I notice you don't use a quill pen and ink to preach your message WAV.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:53 PM

Nic Jones strong point was the interesting guitar part he used to accompany what had , for the MOST part , been unaccompanied song !
I dont see any problem in adapting the tradition if that is what turns you on , any more than I would object to someone singing a song exactly as it was collected !

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:00 PM

It's not adapting the tradition Leadfingers, it's developing it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:34 PM

No problem , whatever label you use Captain !

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:53 AM

The Albanian video is a fairly extreme example of the sort of vocal heterophony that emerges when people sing together; as Poppygator pointed out, people are incapable of singing in unison! Some would call this polyphony, but when one thinks of polyphony one invariable thinks of orchestration, and this is so much more immediate than that somehow. This isn't to say these Guy's don't rehearse, on the contrary, just that it comes out of something living rather than written down, or else composed.

Doo-wop emerged on the streets of Chicago in much the same way, and there's no reason to believe that it was any different with sea-shanties or chorus songs in the English tradition. We hear it in the singing of The Coppers, The Watersons, The Wilsons and we heard it in The Young Tradition too; it's certainly there in Shape-Note Singing and other English speaking traditions, so why wouldn't it be there in the carolling of yore?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:56 AM

There's about-a-hundred-years-old recordings of the Englishman Joseph Taylor singing unaccompanied in the EFDSS, and I once had a quick look at an English book on fishing? from a few centuries ago where folks would, indeed, sing for their supper unaccompanied. Perhaps others could confirm the name of the book and mention other sources...I've heard several say it, since I got into folk four years ago.
But, to question myself (again, in a way that has not yet been answered in these threads), I've also read and heard on TV documentaries that in the 17th century there was an English cittern in nearly every barber-shop and tavern in England, used to accompany songs; so, if not folk-songs, what songs?..early barber-shop songs..? A period musician came onto a period "reality" programme with cittern and feather plectrum...for playing the top-line melody (embellished)?
Rounds - I've had a brief taste at 1 or 2 singarounds but wasn't so keen...maybe it wasn't done that well on these occasions?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 04:10 AM

Isaac Walton, The Complete Angler (1653).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:05 AM

"There's about-a-hundred-years-old recordings of the Englishman Joseph Taylor singing unaccompanied in the EFDSS"

Joseph Taylor was recorded in Lincolnshire by the composer Percy Grainger over several visits between 1906 and 1908. The famous recordings (released by the Gramophone company in 1908) of him were actually done at studios in London. Graingers friend Delius also used them as the basis for his piece 'Unto Brigg Fair' for full orchestra, which Taylor was at the premiere of and was reportedly very proud of.

None of this gives any validity to your earlier point. And I'm not sure what 'the compleat angler' has to do with anything.

"I've also read and heard on TV documentaries that in the 17th century there was an English cittern in nearly every barber-shop and tavern in England "

Well it must be true then...

The problem here is that there are more than a few people on this board who have devoted their life's work to research of traditional music and customs. In another thread you used something you saw about Bob Copper on TV to argue a point against people who knew him well. Now you are trying to use an irrelevant piece of information about Joseph Taylor (which you haven't even got correct) in front of people who are experts in their fields.

Drop it. You are not doing yourself any favours.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:26 AM

It's not fishy, JM: I'm not into fishing but somehow heard about and checked out this book, The Complete Angler, for it's verses, and it did indeed make several references to unaccompanied singing for a fish or two. So that was in the 17th century, and I also mentioned the Joseph Taylor recordings when someone asked for some concrete evidence about the many centuries of UA singing I mentioned above. It's not I, JM, who is deluding himself.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Santa
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:44 AM

"Can someone tell me why it matters how things were done in the past?"

Because it is interesting in itself. That should be sufficient reason, but if you need more, then because it is a guide to what works, and continued to work for many generations. This form of the music continues to envelop the listeners who enjoy such. As for other forms tried out today or whenever, whether you call it adaption or development, this extends the form but does not necessarily replace it. The pop protest singers of the 60s and the folk-rock of the 70s extended folk music, but did not replace earlier forms. The good will be kept, the bad dropped, but the older forms will continue.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:54 AM

As I've said in verse, when people lose their OWN culture, society suffers, Santa.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:56 AM

You've lost me now, by referring to Joseph Taylor. A solo singer without accompaniment is, by definition, singing only a melody line. He can't sing harmony because he's on his own. People didn't use guitars to accompany traditional songs in Joseph Taylor's day, so what do you expect except unaccompanied melody?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 06:10 AM

That's what I said, Marje "English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained folks, with telling &/or dancing, via the repetition of relatively simple TUNES." (me)...polyphony and chords were found, rather, in church and court..? (Early hymns and chants were just a single-line, too, with, usaully three, other lines added by later composers.)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 03 May 08 - 06:49 AM

That's fair enough Santa.

To me, traditional material is a blank canvas with no definitives. (Dylan's music is a bit like this too.) That's one of the beauties of this music. You can develop it as you please but communication is paramount.

WAV, your attitude detracts from this. I shouldn't think there will be many queuing up to hear your performances.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 07:10 AM

"I shouldn't think there will be many queuing up to hear your performances" CS...myspace should give you some idea of that (being the weekend, there's an English hymn atop at the moment).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 May 08 - 07:19 AM

It's widely accepted that WalkaboutsVerse knows jack shit about music,
or verse.

eric

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 03 May 08 - 08:06 AM

Having clicked on the link, I see what you mean, Eric. I won't be joining that particular queue.

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 09:07 AM

To Eric the Red: I won't use your language, but I don't know much about chords and polyphony, because I'm a folkie who just plays and sings the top-line melody, with recorders and keyboards. I've been able to read such top-lines for some time now but am only just getting to the point where I can mimic my singing with these instruments - i.e., write music.
To Marje - I've placed in a few folk-festivals and, if you bothered to look, have received some more-positive Comments on that same, above, Space.
Love, WAV

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:32 AM

Hi Walkabouts.

I learn so much from this site over the years. I never would have guess that the English peasant lack so much in imagination as to never musically experiment with the one instrument they likely could afford. Their voices. I just can't buy your premise Walkabout. Not because I can prove it but because when couched with human nature it doesn't make sense.

At some point someone will get bored with what they are singing and rather than leave the After Witch Burning party, they'll try something a little different.

Sea Chanteys were meant to keep time, I can almost buy the idea in this arena. But Foc'sle Chanteys were for entertainment and even on the eve of the Spanish Armada I'll bet some three parters of The Royal Albion lifted above the grates.

I think a chordal structure is common in the way we string tones together to create a melody. Even Ben Franklin had some words on the subject regards to Scottish music.

This could become a doctoral thesis so I thank you for the point to ponder. But excuse me if I think you are a little off base.

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:49 AM

But, Don, when musically-trained types went out into the field to record folk-singers (many of whom could neither read nor write words - let alone music) they found them singing, unaccompanied, to a repeated relatively-simple tune, and were told that what they were performing had been passed-down to them, by ear..?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:56 AM

"It's not fishy, JM: I'm not into fishing but somehow heard about and checked out this book, The Complete Angler, for it's verses, and it did indeed make several references to unaccompanied singing for a fish or two. So that was in the 17th century, and I also mentioned the Joseph Taylor recordings when someone asked for some concrete evidence about the many centuries of UA singing I mentioned above. It's not I, JM, who is deluding himself."

No, you are wrong. Just because you can find an example of someone singing unaccompanied does not mean that (I quote..) "It's widely accepted that for centuries it didn't change much - singing unaccompanied, repeating a tune for dance;". Nobody was disputing that people have sung accompanied for centuries, I am disputing that that is ALL they did.

In fact, all the documentation and historical evidence is against you. The term Heterophony was coined by Plato (428-347 BC), and there are surviving treatises on Organum harmony singing from around 845 AD. The Sheffield Carols, to pick one example, have been sung in impromptu harmony for at least a couple of hundred years.

Besides, I'm with Captain Swing. What bearing does any of this have on "losing culture" or "society suffering"? Theres a quote from Isaac Newton about successive scientific achievements being made "standing on the shoulders of giants" - do you not want to see our culture continue to build on everything that has gone before and develop forwards and upwards? I love my country and its musical heritage and I love hearing new things and being inspired by what is happening now. I simply cannot understand your point of view, and I especially cannot understand your desire to tell others how they should do things. By all means enjoy the things you enjoy, and disapprove of things you don't like, but don't try to justify it with facts unless you have checked they are correct and you have thought it through.

And, in true dragons den style, for that reason - I'm out.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:43 AM

Hi Walkabouts

I believe Cecil Sharpe found many English songs existing in what has been considered virtually pure forms being sung on the Outer Bank Islands of the Carolinas as well as in the remoter parts of the Appalachians. This was prior to and about the time of WWI, The Great War for you British Types. He found them being sung in harmony with chorded instruments. I won't say that this is the way these songs arrived in the States. But I will say even in these very remote areas that is the way these songs developed. So it isn't a stretch to say that is what happened in the UK 200 years earlier.

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:54 AM

Ok, I'm not much of an angler, so experts please pitch in, but wouldn't it be a bit difficult to play an instrument and fish at the same time?
I would suspect that most rural folk couldn't afford an instrument, or spare a lot of time to practice playing it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:02 PM

Of course, if you record someone who is singing solo and unaccompanied you are not going to hear much harmony are you?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:05 PM

I see WAV has created YET another canvass for his seemingly never ending ego.
As for chords in folk....as Captain Swing has already stated...times change...live with it, besides which this vision of jolly olde England with high tea, evensong and ye game of tennis never actually existed, except perhaps in the mind of the editor of the Daily Telegraph, and that was at some point in the 1950's

Fishing and playing an instrument doesn't work..you tend to put the worm on the end of the wrong thing *LOL*

Charlotte R

ps..didn't Eliza Carthy call Cecil Sharp a rude name recently? With which, by the way I entirely agree *LOL*

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:17 PM

Hi Charlotte,

What is Eliza's principle bitch with poor maladjusted and much maligned
Cecil Sharp(No "P")?

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:32 PM

Don she referred to Cecil # as a knobhead. the quote is:

"Folk music is pop music. How else can a classic tune survive, other than being popular How else can a classic tune survive being collected by a knobhead like Cecil Sharp?."

- sourced from the promo material for EC's upcoming CD Dreams of Breathing Underwater

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:47 PM

Analogous to this DEBATE is what's happened to poetry - for centuries!, it was about telling WITHIN the framework of metre and/or rhyme, until Ezra Pound and friends decided that framework should be chopped (sound familiar?)...

Poem 148 of 230: AUDIENCE LOST

I returned, again,
    To what they pen -
The free-verse poets:
    Deep prose in sets...
I could read, again,
    Of Mice and Men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

...and I think most of the changes to English-folk were also of the last century, with little before that; and, yes, it seems it was popular - but with a very different framework from that of American-pop!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:53 PM

Hi Charlotte,

Knobhead he may have been but I was expecting something significantly more rude and descriptive. Like That Hopeless Bludgeon Bastard Cecil #.
Or That Pea Brained Codswallop.

I only partially agree with Eliza. The song doesn't start out as popular but it is made popular by the quality of the people singing it. However, I'd bet that wordologist could defend Folk and Popular as having the same roots. (Popular from populi meaning people. Folk from folk meaning folk/people. Or something to that effect.)

Hows all that for being over scholarly?

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:25 PM

that 'verse' makes absolutely no sense at all...go figure

comparing the English popular music to American pop is once more comparing apples and oranges..but what else is new?

Well Don, I won't be using it to introduce a song anytim soon *LOL*

Cheers

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:19 PM

How is Ezra Pound chopping poetry analogous to chords being used to play trad music?
Personaly, I detest Ezra Pound and friend, but I can't say that WAV's makes much poetic sense either.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:24 PM

"Frameworks", VD

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:32 PM

How is Ezra Pound chopping poetry analogous to chords being used to play trad music?

ummmmmm...it isn't?

so Tom and Dick was wanderin' along a country lane, and Dick, taking the straw from his mouth, pointed at some sheep and says, "them there sheep is an hypotheses", Tom looks thoughtful for a moment, and taking his straw from his mouth says "Have you bin drinking with the vicar again?"

well it makes just about as much sense as WAV's analogies*LOL*. That passage can be found in the liner notes to Steeleye Span's Below The Salt, I believe. :-)

Cheers
Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:54 PM

Hmm, if Ezra Pound played folk music, he'd probably play grace notes exclusively.