BS: Life in jail for police killers

Subject: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:09 AM

The home secretary in the U.K. is about to announce that anyone who is found guilty of killing a police officer will be sent to jail for the rest of their life and never released.

Apart from one or two really extreme cases, most of those who kill a member of the public can be released after 20 years or even less.

Whilst I think that most people would agree that the police need to be protected, does this mean that a police officer's life is more important than that of a member of the public?

Is this proposal a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:23 AM

Hi, Kampervan-

It seems to me that 20 years in prison is long enough. After 20 years, a person has totally changed. Rather than spending money to keep a murderer in prison for the rest of his life, it's worthwhile to give him a chance to start a new life and make a contribution to society.


But here in the U.S., people would scream if a judge gave a murderer a sentence of "only" twenty years. And cop killers? Well, the death penalty is still very popular here. I've been working on a campaign to end the California addiction to longer and longer prison sentences, and I'm meeting with a lot of opposition. One of our prime opponents is an attorney I see in church every week. Her sister was killed by a boyfriend 34 years ago, and this woman and her mother have fought against the killer's parole every time it has come to a hearing. They founded a "victims' rights" group that fights against the inmate at every parole hearing that comes up. Needless to say, I am very careful how I talk to this woman.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:30 AM

Hi Joe

I think that it is a very difficult thing to achieve a balance between deterrence and punishment, and mercy and compassion, especially for a crime that is so emotive as murder.

There are so many different circumstances that I believe that it is impossible to have a single blanket sentence. But to draw a line between the police and everyone else is, IMHO, not right.

K/van

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:56 AM

Sentencing is not her department's responsibility, but she is about to address Police Federation.
In any case we are awaiting a ruling from Human Rights court on whether life tariff is legal anyway.

In the Tia murder case, the judge declined to award life tariff because he could not be sure the murder was sexually motivated.
The killer was obsessed with child porn, secretly videod the child sleeping, and photographed her naked corpse having posed it indecently on a bed. The judge described the pose as "disgusting."

But, he might have only killed her out of shame or fear of what she might say, the judge said.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:07 AM

This is probably all part of Teresa May positioning herself as a "hard women" in order to mount a leadership challenge inside the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:30 AM

It probably is; but if she were to go through with it then would it be a good thing?

I have my doubts.

K/an

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:39 AM

Long tariffs seem remarkably ineffective in the USA. It seems retributive, rather than anything else. I too am doubtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: May Queen
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Im quite sure that cant be legal. Surely a child needs to be protected as much as a police officer so why not life for child killers? People who kill geriatrics or the mentally infirm?? Are they so different?

I also feel that keeping murderers in jail at a cost to the tax payer is wrong. I think that the death penalty is worth bringing back for a certain number of cases although I know that could open up a whole can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:57 AM

As I recall (and I might be wrong) when Parliament debated ending the death penalty it was on the basis that the public would still be protected from re-offenders as murderers would be imprisoned for life.
This has slowly been watered-down over the decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:23 AM

Only those who have committed a serious crime against human beings (rape, child abuse, extreme violence, killing) and who are likely to reoffend if released, should be kept in jail for life. No a policeman's life is no more precious than anyone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: alanabit
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:14 AM

I am with Joe and Richard Bridge on this one. There needs to be a deterrent. The best deterrent is the near certainty that the culprit will be caught and sentenced. Getting into bidding wars about how much retribution we should extract is futile. There is no adequate restitution for the loss of a life. If I murder two of your children, surely I deserve to be hanged twice? The desire for revenge, while understandable, can play no part in any civilised justice system. I certainly do not want to emulate what happens in a minority of cases in the USA: A convict first serves a life sentence - and then when time has inevitably changed him into a different person - he is put to death.
Ten years in prison is a traumatic and life changing experience for nearly anyone who endures it. I believe that Nietzsche warned us to beware of those in whom the desire to punish is strong. That is the whole point of taking criminal cases out of the hands of those who are most directly affected by the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:42 AM

In fact no killer of a policeman in the UK has ever left jail alive. Making a law about it is just grandstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:35 AM

The UK used to have no penal law at all. Instead, precedent cases were and are referred to that go back many centuries. In the Good Old times, not too long ago, the bobbies did not carry guns, assuming that killers, however cynical, would not dare to damage His/Her Majesty's uniform (just as a Mafia killer would never damage a saint's statue, would he?). If they do nevertheless, this (and not the killing of the body inside the uniform) deserves a severly increased punishment.

Well, the times have changed, even in the UK. Respect of Crown and State is now minimal, even among law-abiding citizens, who ask for mundane laws, as if they were Napoleon's or Friedrich's (of Prussia, not Nietzsche) subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:36 AM

But may encourage the killer to kill again to avoid capture if the maximum possible sentence is already mandated.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:55 AM

It's been a problem for some time, the decision about what prison is actually for. In previous centuries it was always punishment and retribution. The deterrent factor has never been satisfactorily proven. And rehabilitation with a view to reducing recidivism is palpably not working. Prisoners I've spoken to ( quite a few, some in for serious offences eg armed robbery) said they were never deterred by the possibility of long sentences, and the 'as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb' mentality prevailed. During the commission of a crime, (usually planned in detail in the case of armed robbery) they didn't stop to consider any consequences of their actions. Their aim was to do it, and do whatever necessary to get away with a clean pair of heels. Some of them were definitely violent and murderous men. I don't myself think 'Life-means-life for killing a policeman' would have the slightest deterrent effect on this type of chap. I don't think the life of a copper is any more of a loss than that of any other human being. And I don't believe that the Court of Human Rights accepts that one can incarcerate a person for the whole of their natural life unless they are mentally criminally insane. As I understand it, there has to be a Tariff fixed at the time of sentencing. I'm not therefore in favour of a literal Life Sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:16 AM

I may be jaded from my law enforcement background, but the way I see it is, a police officer is not just one human who is more or less important than any other, but they represent all of us. They are a walking microcosm of society. I don't support the death penalty simply because prisons have too many innocent people, but I do support life without parole.Cop killers and pedophiles are scum; put them away.
That cop is our first defense against scum who prey on us.Back him up!

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:35 AM

There are also cases of police shooting civilians - sometimes three or four policemen emptying 15-round magazines into an individual who is already on the ground - and the victim is later found to have been unarmed, but the police involved say "I thought I saw him reaching for a gun," and therefore are found guiltless.

In most of such cases, the deceased is a male of African descent.

If I were an inner-city black man, I would consider it necessary to be prepared to defend myself against out-of-control law enforcement as much as against civilian criminals. I don't think white, middle-class people in the suburbs or rural areas can understand what it's like.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:07 AM

With all due respect I think some pontificating about the UK criminal law and its history need to do more homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:16 AM

If you mean me, Richard, (and as you don't specify, it's hard to know at whom you're directing your objection) I'd say that actually talking to armed and dangerous criminals for two hours at a time over many years would qualify someone at least to form an opinion. I've also studied on two courses about the history of crime and punishment in connection with my prison work. Maybe (and this is likely) my views are out of date nowadays, which I'd concede. And 'pontificating' or not, I can if I like have an opinion about life-means-life prison terms for killers of policemen. That is after all what this thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Charmion
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:20 AM

Killers of police officers are sentenced more harshly because police officers are required to go into harm's way to protect the rest of us. If the tarriff for the murder of a cop were the same as for the murder of anyone else, the argument goes, criminals would have no reason to refrain from killing law-enforcement personnel, especially after having already committed another murder.

The death penalty in Canada remained in place for murderers of police and correctional officers long after it had fallen into abeyance for other murder convictions.

All this depends, of course, on the assumption that those bent on murdering fellow human beings give any meaningful consideration to the risk of getting caught or the penalties under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:09 AM

What is being done to prevent the deaths of police officers? Surely prevention is more worthwhile than punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Charmion
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:51 PM

Haven't you noticed the body armour even the humblest beat cop wears these days? That's a Kevlar "anti-stab" vest to reduce the incidence of fatal knifings. Their patrol cars are loaded with computers and communication equipment linked to national police information networks so they have a much clearer idea of who they're dealing with when they stop a car or knock on a door in response to a report of something nasty in progress. They carry non-lethal weapons, such as pepper spray and Tasers, that -- correctly used -- allow them to stop an assault before it gets to the " bodily harm" stage. These measures were all introduced to make street-level policing both more effective and safer for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:53 PM

Of course there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that not all cops are paragons of virtue. I speak of the good ones who deserve our support.
Those Rambo wannabees that kill unarmed black guys are found guilty by a jury of their peers.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:29 PM

Those Rambo wannabees that kill unarmed black guys are found guilty by a jury of their peers.

In what universe?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:34 PM

Richard Bridge has caught me using a wrong term (a "faux-ami"), but he knows exactly what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:17 PM

The real issue (for me... I do not pretend to speak for others) is that over time, jails and prisons tend to fill up. This is a serious burden on society in building enough prisons... but even more so on prison personnel who must deal with the worst offenders.
There are 2 types of people in prison for murder and other crimes which may warrant life sentences... or perhaps a death sentence.

1)Those convicted strictly by circumstantial evidence and who swear they are innocent (at least of that particular offense). In recent years, many have been exonerated by DNA tests, recanting of testimony by lying witnesses, confessions by the real culptits, and simple correction of mis-identification by other means.
Some people who claim innocence ARE innocent..others are not, and is is important to keep avenues open for both exoneration and **rehabilitation** if the prisoner shows they deserve it.

2)Those who are clearly, obviously and totally known to be guilty thru genuine confessions, photo & video evidence (like the recent Boston bombers). In this 2nd group are some who remain dangerous while IN prison, and who make no secret of their disdain for society or concern for the lives of others...particularly of those who must guard them. Some prisons have run out of the usual space for housing these worst-of-the-worst, and assaults on guards (and other prisoners) occur daily. Many of these 'worst' are murderers and would happily BECOME police killers, it they are not already.
In those cases, 'life in prison' is as much a sentence on the prison personnel as on the guilty ones.

So... what to do? We all know there's no easy answer...partly because we all have different notions of 'fair' and 'just' and 'right'.
I find myself reading this thread and wondering if there needs to be a new category of sentence...such as "5-10 years evaluation, then resolution depending on the recommendations of those who have had to cope with them for several years."...."Keep trying to stab prison guards, and bragging about it, and all options are on the table."

If you gather that I am not totally opposed to capital punishment in all cases, you would be correct. I know exactly why many are opposed to it, and I explain MY concerns above.

I wish I had a simplistic answer. I suspect that if the trend in society continues, many others will be mulling over their opinons in a few yeaqrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:52 PM

Overflowing prisons are the sign of a sick society. The solution (in my humble opinion) isn't to reduce the surplus by culling the worst murderers by use of the hangman's rope, but to address the root causes of criminal behaviour. (Those who cannot help their psychopathic behaviour are clearly ill, and therefore do not deserve punishment at all. They need to be detained for the safety of the rest of us in pleasant but secure establishments.) Those who have drifted into ever more serious and violent crime should have been identified as youngsters, and received intensive help, together with their family and indeed the entire community where they lived. The men I got to know in prison had all without exception been born and bred in dysfunctional, abusive families, on depressing sink estates alongside any number of similar young men without hope of anything better than violent crime to fund their rather consumerist aspirations. They basically didn't care about anything very much apart from money, sex and drugs (why should they?) and 'killing a pig' wasn't regarded as the epitome of evil, just an occupational hazard. This solution however needs long-term and expensive input, not popular among voters or taxpayers. Regarding the strain of the job among prison officers, in my experience, they certainly do earn every penny of their rather meagre pay, and the majority treat the inmates with astonishing patience and kindness. I reckon they would agree that the causes and problems of violent and dangerous crime, including the murder of police officers, is far more complex than the general public realise.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:18 PM

Who are you and where has the usual judgemental Eliza gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:53 PM

Eliza.. I totally agree with you....in theory. But in practice, digging into 'root causes' and changing how society works is way beyond MY comprehension as to how to proceed.
Of COURSE we should do everything possible to counsel, train and otherwise help people cope with the stresses (like poverty and prejudice) that tend some toward criminal behavior.... but some issues make this very difficult...the worst being overpopulation, which makes many other problems almost impossible to treat in any way other than fancy band-aids.

(Richard Bridge... is there any concept in law about dispensing certain punishments or control without judgment, purely as a practical matter? I had thought the phrase "with or without prejudice" might be it, but I see that has very clear meanings not relevant to violent crime.)

My training and degree is in philosophy, which I half-seriously claim gives me the right to think and meddle in all areas and to brainstorm problems and issues "outside the box", as it were. I try to see what 'might' be done... not just what some standard rule says should be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:48 PM

Presumably this would only apply when they were killed in the course of duty. After all, in their private lives police officers are just as liable to be murdered (or to be murderers) as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:40 PM

In the US most places include a life sentance for many crimes, but a simple life sentence generally permits eligibility for parole in 20 years or sometimes even less.

In most serious cases a trial must result in a finding of "guilty" for specific charges. A separate trial is then held to determine what sentence will be applied, and in the sentencing trial (sometimes just called a "hearing") "aggravating conditions" can be introduced and considered in determining the sentence.

Killing a police officer "in perfomance of his duties" is a possible "aggravating circumstance." Killing an off-duty officer could, in some cases, be considered a "hate crime" which can be an aggravating circumstance. Killing, or injuring, a "defenseless person" is sometimes considered an aggravating circumstance, making it more serious than if the victim was "able to resist."(?).

There are "uniform sentencing guidelines" that many courts follow, although especially in lower courts the uniformity can be quite variable.

Most jurisdictions that handle "serous crimes" can impose a sentence of "life without parole" and while that does generally mean the criminal will spend the rest of his/her life in jail, in some cases even someone not "eligible for parole" can petition for a hearing on the claim of "complete rehabilitation." Such petitions rarely get a response in favor of a hearing, but at least there is a way for a few "lifers" to try to obtain an early release.

A very few have used this method successfully. It seems to work most often if the petitioner has a terminal disease that will be very expensive to treat in confinement and a cost to the prison system, but ... . Support from the prison officials willing to say "it makes no sense to keep him/her" can be a factor, and existence of outside support from family or others can be critical.

Whether early release is a help to the prisoner is questionable in some cases. For a person confined long enough to have lost all employable skills, all contact with supporting family or prior community contacts, and possibly old enough to have disabilities of age or illnesses, an early release may be literally a death sentence. Whether the prison system has a responsibility to continue to provide for a person who has been confined long enough to have been "made useless" by the system is a rather tough question.

Flexibility in sentencing, parole, and rehabilitation are necessary things that don't fit well into any system of punishment or confinement, but new inflexible demands can only harm many without helping any.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:53 AM

Richard, it is I, me, myself, she of the white hair, arthritis and many wrinkles whom you have apparently branded a rampant right-wing Daily Mail reader, (well, only the Puzzle Page actually!). Bill D, I know it is far into the realms of idealism to imagine rectifying the ills of our present society, but I'm convinced therein lie the causes of all this dangerous and evil behaviour. I've always thought that most wickedness is engendered by circumstances. In fact, punishment is a rather primitive way to deal with it. Can one in fact judge or blame anyone's actions if they were brought up to it, like a trained dog? But the disadvantaged, deprived and lawless areas of any country are the seedbeds of total lack of respect for Law and Order. It would pay well to address these vigorously, as the enormous reduction in violence and murder would reduce also the costs of policing and imprisoning. I was appalled and horrified by 'my' prisoners' characters and attitudes, but at the same time I pitied them from my heart. They were in a sense victims too.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:59 AM

@ Jack Campin

Sorry Jack I don't think that is correct. I'm sure Christopher Craig was released after a few years and a recent write up over this issue also mentions the release of Magdi Elgizouli for a murder in the 70's?

But yeah, you have my total agreement that herself is just grandstanding. She has been out of her depth for years and everyone but her can see it. Talk about being promoted beyond your abilities!

In terms of the OP and other points:

No, a police officers life is worth no more that anyone elses. Each loss of life and the circumstances surrounding it needs to be judged on an individual basis.

Death penalty. Absolutely not. Human beings (no matter how educated and self important) are very very fallible, very very prone to unsound judgement, and very very subject to bringing individual predjudice to the table. Plus my government killing people on my behalf damages my spirit, and they do enough of that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:43 AM

Sounds to me like an under pressure HYome Secretary looking for headlines.

Joe N.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:36 PM

Eliza... I see your point, and I fervently hope that ANY amount of addressing of the "disadvantaged, deprived and lawless" parts of society will make some progress. I'm afraid though, that I think of it like King Canute trying to sweep back the waves on the beach.


   I read constantly articles like this that suggest that many aspects of behavior may be, at least partially, genetically or otherwise 'internally' driven. If this proves to be the case, it 'may' be that prevention, control and possible cures are possible by scientific means, rather than the guesswork of social 'sciences'.
IF... and it's a big IF... we discover that something like the amoral behavior of serial killers is genetically programmed or facilitated, it would seriously change how we view possible treatments or judgments.

You say "Can one in fact judge or blame anyone's actions if they were brought up to it, like a trained dog?". We DO know that dogs of various types are not only trained, but are naturally more aggressive or gentle...etc. We humans like to think of ourselves as special... 'above' the traits of 'lower' animals, but it may be only that we are able to reflect on our own nature...our own nature is still that of a mammal that a million years ago WAS a 'lower' animal. I think we need to use that power of reflecting to honestly evaluate our own status.
(In philosophy, this is a phenomenological issue, and a very difficult thing to do, as it involves an Eidetic_reduction, a theoretical trick which my college professor likened to "running around behind one's self and observing one's own behavior & motives". It may be that our very nature may prevent us from looking at our societal structures in a neutral way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:20 PM

Bill D, how very interesting that article is! I have a friend called Janet, and for fifty years we've maintained that behaviour is at least partially genetically driven, or else conditioned from early experiences. From that we have often discussed the validity of 'punishment' or even 'judgment' of such behaviours, and find 'blame' or 'condemnation' to be somewhat inappropriate. I studied moral philosophy as an 'extra' at Edinburgh Uni while doing my MA, and such questions have always occupied my mind. It's in fact one of the reason I embarked on Prison Visiting, and learned such a lot. The more you chat to a criminal (and these were visiting sessions of two hours at a time) the more you learn about his 'upbringing', the processes of his thinking and the psychology behind his actions. (I never had the chance to visit women inmates) Some of these men were in Parkhurst and Wormwood Scrubs prisons, and they were quite dangerous and violent. How wonderful if science could come up with a way of changing their inherent brain function to modify their attitudes and improve their socialisation! However, would some object on ethical grounds? Personality Engineering!

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:19 PM

Eliza... some of that is already done in a fairly heavy-handed way. There are psychotropic drugs given IN some facilities to 'settle' some people. Hyperactive children have been given Ritalin. What is needed for real progress, of course, is some sort of hormonal therapy or even surgical intervention that doesn't require constant monitoring and doesn't have side-effects that are worse.

And yes... of course any personality engineering is a delicate matter and will get many objections, just as genetic engineering of plants has. We just need to keep an open mind about "the greatest good for the greatest number".

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:38 PM

Yes, the Liquid Cosh. In Parko I saw nurses accompanying unpredictable inmates on Visits, carrying hypodermics in small green boxes slung over their shoulders. Once or twice I watched as someone kicked off and was duly injected in their buttocks then carted off semi-conscious out of sight. Sinister. But that's a temporary response to impossible behaviour. And then there's frontal lobotomies! Irreversible and indefensible. However, if one could adjust the person's capacity to monitor and control their OWN mind and reactions, and to choose a moral course as opposed to an immoral one, that might be acceptable. The difficulty would be, who decides what IS moral? After all, it's generally accepted you don't attack the Police, but what if some Police become corrupt and murderous during the course of their duties? The normal parameters would not then apply. Fascinating stuff, and not at all easy. The older I get the more I realise nothing is simple or straightforward!

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:47 PM

"The difficulty would be, who decides what IS moral? "

Oh my, yes.... there are always those who would abuse ANY technique to suit some artificial notion of who who 'deserved' to be helped.

As Nietzsche said, "Human...all too human"

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:01 PM

Gandhi said it with a beautiful sense of irony when he visited England in the 1930's. A journalist asked: " what do you think of Western civilization, Mr. Gandhi?" He replied: " I think that would be an excellent idea."

So is rehabilitation in prisons. It has not been tried and failed, it simply has not been tried. With most USA prison privatized, it is unlikely it ever will be.

If police officers are not trained well enough to deal with difficult situations, perhaps the higher-ups who failed to provide the training need to go to prison for the civilian murders and for putting the officers in the position where they become murderers. Perhaps they are punished enough by having to live with this the rest of their lives.

Who can say how many innocent people have been put to death due to lack of justice.

And by what right do we put people into prisons where they will be sexually and physically abused by guards and other inmates. And expect them to be rehabilitated?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:59 PM

Dorothy.. I see your frustration and good intentions, but practicality rears its ugly head.

"...police officers are not trained well enough to deal with difficult situations..."

This is not programming a computer or designing a building... this is getting human beings to 'deal' with other human beings in wildly variable situations. Even hiring people to BE police is a tricky business. You need those with enough character and ability and desire to hold the job, but not those who simply crave carrying a gun and intimidating others. A very small % of the population fit the criteria. You can lay down rules and do practice drills...etc., but "difficult situations" stretch people's coping abilities. Flaws in training simply don't explain all the failures.

"..rehabilitation in prisons. It has not been tried and failed, it simply has not been tried. "

Well, it has and is to a certain extent. There ARE programs for those who are willing to try. Throw enough money and competent staff at it and things are possible. Try getting that money & staff and watch the budget committees turn blue!
"..by what right do we put people into prisons where they will be sexually and physically abused by guards and other inmates?"

Ummm.. by laws set down by our elected officials that WE vote for. Prisons are not happy solutions, but when listed with the alternatives, they seem to be the first choice... and there is not enough money in ANY budget to build and staff prison facilities where everyone can be monitored safely 24/7.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:10 AM

The tougher Prison Officers I spoke with claimed, "Prison DOES work. While the cons are inside, they're not doing crime. Society gets a rest from them and it's great." They had a point but I don't wholly subscribe to it. I don't believe that a chap of say twenty-five (most inmates are in their twenties) can have his entire mindset changed by 'rehabilitation' after he's spent a miserable, violent and abusive childhood, been on Class A drugs for years, associated with cons and evil people in his adulthood and possibly has inherited dodgy genes from his equally dysfunctional parents. The intervention should have occurred years before, among his entire deprived community, and at the moment there's no motivation or money for that. However, I did see some men who had benefited greatly from the compassion and dedication of officers, chaplains, educators and (I hope!) people like me, Prison Visitors. As a teacher, I saw quite a few potential criminals among my pupils, and came to the conclusion that before the age of,say, ten, one could effect a change. But after that age, it was already too late. A bit pessimistic but IMO true. This has drifted a bit far from the OP, but I think 'killing policemen' and 'appropriate penalties' stem from the roots of what some of us here have been discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:56 AM

The best deterrent is the near certainty that the culprit will be caught and sentenced.

I disagree. People do not commit crimes expecting to be caught. The deterrent value is negligible in a lot of cases. Both prison and death are for punishment and retribution. If we really want to reduce recidivism, education and/or conditioning is the best policy. Of course there are occasions when that conditioning should include a transfer into the next life but I am not equipped to decide which cases they are!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 17 May 13 - 07:14 AM

Mark Thomas (british stand up) at a Jail Guitar Doors event said something along the lines of

"Whatever you think of people in prison they are getting out, and they might be coming to live next door to you. Wouldn't you rather they had some rehabilitation when they were in there?"

I think they are a worthwhile organisation. The website is out of date but I believe it is all still active in terms of work.


http://www.jailguitardoors.org.uk/index.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:52 AM

These days attempts are made to arrange meetings between the victim (or family of a victim) and the perpetrator. The aim is to confront the offender with the direct consequences of his/her actions. I wonder if the widow/family of a murdered Police Officer could bring themselves to meet face to face with the cause of their grief? And if so, would any changes be effected on either side by such an event? I've spoken to two offenders (serial burglars) who were told they might achieve parole more easily if they agreed to a conciliation meeting. They were both cynical little chaps and quite prepared to pretend they were remorseful in order to shorten their sentences. One of them came out weeks later on a Visit with tears in his eyes because another inmate had stolen his bag of sugar. This from a man who had burgled literally hundreds of houses! I replied it seemed to me there must be a thief in the jail. He wasn't amused. But it shows he hadn't made any connection between his crimes and the consequences for the victims. Yet I've often taken away a copy of Time Inside (prison magazine) and the poetry and creative writing is amazingly striking. In Parko there's a fascinating and disturbing mural painted on the wall of the Visits Room, and it just shows the violent and sinster minds of the prison artists who created it. These people are damaged, dangerous and broken inside. I don't know what should be done with them frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:05 PM

If I may make a generalization... there seem to be people who 'look ahead' and base their actions on *what might happen*, and those who don't. The kid who tries to jump his bicycle over a ditch is only a little different from one who burgles a house. Neither one actively considers it turning out badly. The one with the broken bicycle and the broken arm 'may' learn from his experience, but often all he learns is that he needed 'more speed'. Likewise, kids who steal or bully other kids are often more concerned with 'how to get away with it', rather than whether it is right or wrong. What the research is concerned is how much of this behavior is learned, and how much is genetic or flawed brain wiring.

The results of research may help us work on solutions, but we still have to deal with each case, no matter what the perceived cause. Often, prison (or hospital)is the only available 'practical' treatment for repeat offenders, even if we suspect some genetic cause.....and if the offense(s) are serious enough, the practical treatments/punishments rise in seriousness.

One result of rising population and accelerated stresses in a complex society is that the *total number* of serious offenses rises, even IF the overall % does not... which means that we see more issues and feel more threatened and need more treatment facilities and jails & prisions.... and of course, more people like Eliza willing to go to these places and try to make a difference. But people willing and competent to do such work are like honest and competent police- there is always a shortage.

Sounds kinda pessimistic, hmmm? But it seems to me that we are not likely to make much progress unless we first clearly define what we are facing. "Looking at the world thru rose-colored glasses" is for novelists, not lawmakers and planners.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:27 PM

Parole and supervision after 20 years seems reasonable, but the parolee must have a means of making a living, and some form of acceptance.

Inmates are expensive- the cost in facilities and detention personnel is tremendous.
Society itself must help in rehabilitation.

Like Joe, I believe that reform to the system, as well as sentencing, is long overdue.

I do not feel that I can offer solutions myself, but I would support attempts at reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:00 PM

In most US jurisdictions, there is a rationale for what appear to be rather long sentences.

If someone is sentenced to five years, at the end of five years they are released. There is no consideration of whether they will attempt to behave any differently once free than they did before being in prison. For some kinds of crimes, especially in the case of "juvenile crimes," some time in prison is considered a "badge of honor" and serves no purpose other than giving a "kid" access to more experienced criminals who can "teach them the tricks."

In general, all prisoners given longer sentences are "eligible for parole" after a fairly small fraction of the sentence time has been served, and a "parole board" can consider whether they have lawful skills they can use to survive, whether they have family or community support, whether they have broken ties to prior criminal influences, and whether they have a "positive attitude" about "staying clean" if released.

The parole board gets a chance to say "this one is still a criminal" and "that one has a chance outside."

When rejected for parole, the inmate still has the chance to re-apply for early release, usually after a specific addtional time.

The FAILURE IN THE SYSTEM that is the main complaint here is that far too few inmates eligible for parole and early release are, in fact, made more likely to be successful if allowed to return to outside life.

There is no reason to believe that shorter sentences would change the percentage of successfully rehabilitated returns to society, but it quite likely would return many more unrehabilitated (and often "better trained") persons who will just return to being criminals.

It's really the other defects in the system that should be of concern, although appropriate maximum sentences are still significant.

Maximum sentences are generally based on "SUFFICIENT PUNISHMENT" so for less serious offenses it may not be possible for the "prison rehabilitation" efforts to have much effect. THE REAL NEED is for proper treatment and support to make there "never be any criminals," outside the prisons. Blaming the prison systems for not solving problems we permitted (and sometimes encouraged) in the whole of our communities is something of a "cop-out."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:09 PM

Bill D. made reference a little above about "more concerned with 'how to get away with it', rather than whether it is right or wrong."

I had two high-level corporate lawyers, on separate occasions in different situations, explain:

"Our job has nothing to do with what's legal. Our only job is to tell management how likely they are to get caught and how much we'll charge them to get them out of it."

With that attitude at the Headquarters Division of a very large US Corporation there has to be some suspicion about where corrections could do a lot of good.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:10 PM

It costs about £40,000 a year to keep an inmate in prison. But 'lifers' cost more, as they have more facilities in 'A' and 'B' Cat prisons, such as swimming pools, gymnasia, football pitches, and even crystal therapy, acupuncture, hypnotherapy, art and craft sessions, and of course completely free heating, lighting, laundry, clothing, dental and medical treatment. (I have to pay at the dentist!) One of 'my' inmates had ALL of the above available to him in his 'B' Cat jail, but on release he was no different and carried on committing the same crimes. One of the officers was so concerned about his skinny, emaciated body his wife made special rice puddings for her husband to take into the jail for him! Life in prison can be fairly bearable if you're tough and have mates on the outside to put money in your prison account. I think the maximum is £300. Also you need a 'minder' and a 'supplier', then you can get by. It isn't necessarily the punishment you may think it is. Meanwhile, the poor widow of the dead policeman carries on as best she can coping with her grief on a smallish pension.