We're losing a good site!

Subject: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:47 PM

Rose the record lady just informed me that as of Spetember 20th her site along with all the others on the server she is on will be shut down!! She has a real good collection of songs which she has uploaded for the pleasure of those that would partake of them. I think it is a shame that this site should be lost. I am not computer savvy enough to thnk of any quick remedy. Does anyone else with a little more knowledge have any ideas how she could carry on?? Click here to see the site

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:54 PM

Pay a few dollars a month, and put it somewhere else - simply really

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:57 PM

OK, Fine....How many dollars a momth and where??? That's WHAT I was asking. I know it must be simple, because so many folks do it, but I am trying to learn, not just gather assinine remarks!!!

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:12 PM

Have her take a look at www.tripod.com; it's free and you can put up your own design. I am sure you'll hear some more better suggestions, too, Banj. I am sorry to hear this news; she's got a great site. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:43 PM

ASK MAX about hosting it. Melody Lane almost died too; he offered them a spot. Bucks, but small.

~S~

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:51 PM

I haven't been there in a few weeks although I hit it about three times a week as background......This sucks!

Banj, is it a server problem or a legal one, do you know?

Spaw

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:57 PM

Rose told me in a recent e-mail that spree.com will no longer host web sites as of Sept 20. I don't think there are any legal problems because she posts all the neceddary discalimers on her site and also tells the user that she is simply putting things on from her personal collection and does not charge for use and also specifies that the stuff she puts up is for the users home use only. Sure hope we can find her a solution or at least a suggestion for one!

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: hesperis
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:30 AM

TRIPOD SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!! You have to go through 2 pages before it'll let you download anything, and it won't let you "save target as" you HAVE to click on their stupid link, which takes FOREVER!!!!!! And I have DSL!!!!!!!!

The first question is - how much space and bandwidth does she need?

Aside from that, try topcities.com (server down a lot, but 150 MB, and tech people actually post in their forum occasionally), artshost.com (aka freewebsites.com, which offers 100 MB). All three offer ftp. Use those ones only if she actually knows html, they're ftp based. (No "easy page editor" thingy.)

In the meantime, she should make sure she's got the site backed up, try looking at zdnet.com for "website ripper". That will give her a program that will "rip" a complete website onto her hard drive.

~*hesperis*~

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:24 AM

Just checked my e-mail and Rose reports having many mor eproblems right now. Her mother is ill and she needs to spend time with her. She said she may be able to sneak some time over the weekend when she isn't at work to come tell us about her site needs. I do know at one time she told me that she has about 1000 MB of material on her present site.

Hesperis, I will pass on the thought of the zdnet.com idea, maybe that will allow her to at least save what she has pending future placement. Sure hope we can help her somehow, she has spent much time in sharing her lifelong collection with us. Thanks all...

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:37 AM

Also think about namezero.com... I'm not sure how much space they'll host though...

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:40 AM

I put my page up at iVillage - it's free and it has the easy page editor thingy! I don't know how much space they give you, though. It's worth checking out, anyhow.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:58 PM

Most places only give you 20Mb or 50Mb at most. Collect a few of those, and you've got yourself a significant chunk of space, though. And there's many free web places out there...

Graham.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:23 PM

I'm not saying there may not be better options than Tripod but they must must have changed or their UK operation may be different. Never had any trouble with downloads using it, have used to to place files for people here as well as to host Hearme for Mudcat and they do (or did) allow ftp - they did have "web tools" for ftp and I think building pages but I never used them. I'm not sure how much space they offer what bandwith limitations they may have.

I still have web space with Tripod and also with FreeUK but I haven't used it for a while. My latest move was to pay for £45 + VAT for 12 months with Namezco.com For that, I get 40Mb web space, they offer "unlimited bandwith" (although there is a "high usage" clause), ASP, Perl/CGI, ODBC support, email facilities, a control panel to adjust settings and they host my domain.

OK, I have had some teething problems with my ASP pages (mostly ODBC connection issues) but Namezco are taking my problems seriously and helping me solve them so I expect things to be running smoothly soon.

The way things are looking to me, at this sort of price (and possibly cheaper) it is well worth considering paying for web space, particularly if the site owner is interested using dynamic pages to enhance their site, e.g. with the site Banjer gave, with something like ASP or Cold Fusion, it would be fairly easy to build a searchable database of the songs, perhaps on the lines of Mudcat's dt search.

Jon

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:43 PM

Jon, perhaps you understand the technical issues well enough to help me understand this-- I have often wondered, if a good site has to come off the Net, can its archive become part of Mudcat? Max has said that storage space is never the issue. Do the different ways sites are built preclude easily adding them as new sections of other sites?

~Susan

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:49 PM

I've never had problems with Tripod over here, either. Sometimes it was a little slow, but not since we've gone to cable access. If I remember right, they allow 50 mb FREE and I think you can pay a small fee for more. I chose them on Jon's recommendation and have been very happy with them. The do allow ftp's.

Banj, Rose can find out more about how to move to Tripod by Clicking Here.

kat

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:06 PM

Actually, it would be a good thing to get a few more paying customers working with Max. He could use the revenue, and if he has the storage space to spare, this could be a good thing for all concerned.

Rich

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:35 PM

Susan, I'm not well up on this and I guess it would need Max to say if he could host a particular site.

Aside from the space issues which Max has said aren't a problem at Mudcat, there could be bandwith issues is a site got a lot of traffic and other resource issuses - as an example, in my contract "monopoplising processing power" on the shared servers comes into the high usage clause.

I can't see any real problem with straight HTML pages, maybe a few links would need changing to point to the new site but off the top of my head, that would be about it.

If one the other hand we are talking sites where some server side processing takes place, you need a server running the supporting software. As an example, my forum is written in ASP (which is a mixture of HTML and a scripting language such as VBScript), so I need a site running a server that supports that - Microsofts IIS does, I believe WebsitePro does and I've heard of one Linux port but not every host would support it. It also uses an Acess Database so I need something that provides me with the capability to connect to that via ODBC (although other SQL compliant databases would work with little or no mods).

The bottom line to me would be - if Max supported those things, all that should be needed is a new database connection set up and the site would be running. Without ASP support, a complete rewrite would be necessary...

I'm sure there are lots of other considerations but that is my view based on my limited understanding of these things at the moment.

Jon

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:38 PM

If I loved a site, and it went down, and I had to view a banner ad to see its archives... I'd be glad to see the ad. See?

~S~

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:15 PM

Rose has links on every page explaining how to download her songs...so, just to be safe, I am doing just that. This is too valuble a resource to just disappear...I do hope she finds a solution in the next 2-3 weeks, but I don't want to take chances.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

Bill I had thought about trying to DL her site but didn't quite know how much it would take spacewise or if I had the room. As I have said before I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to computers.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM

Banjer...I have the space, though I will have to put it all on disks (CD burner)after I am finished, else I WONT have any room....and I have a 'download manager' program which 'almost' automates the process. If Rose finds a new site, wonderful...but if the were more than one source for some of these treasure when someone needs them, it would be great. (Gene has sent me things that I didn't know existed...I wouldn't doubt he and several others are already ahead of me in archiving this)

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Bill, please 'splain to me where I am going wrong. On the various pages are two symbols for each song. One plays the song and if you right click on the other it should bring up something saying to 'save target as'...I see no such thing when I right click...could it be because I am using Netscape....I can't seem to save any of the music on Rose's site and there are some songs that I haven't heard for years and probably will not hear again when we lose this...Thanks, Banjer

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Pene Azul
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 06:13 PM

Banjer, hold down the shift key and left click.

Jeff

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Banjer..with my Netscape it brings up a list....and near the bottom of the list, it says "save LINK as"...I think 'target' is IE lingo. It should work. We'll get 'em...*grin*...(I am up to page 16)..also, click on the link on the main page that says "click here to get an alphabetical listing of all the songs"....you can save and/or print that for reference.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: hesperis
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

Kat, have you tried to download a file from tripod lately? I have. They set it up so that any link to a file goes instead to a seperate page for the file you want to download. If you try to right-click and "save target as", you get an error. If you don't just assume that the link is broken and give up, you LEFT-click on the link. The link doesn't take you to the file, but to a NEW PAGE, which the creator of the site DID NOT CREATE!

On the second page, the one that tripod automatically inserts, you get another link, that says "click here for the file" or something like that.. if you try "save target as" you get an html page, NOT THE FILE. If you left-click, it will process the click for a few minutes, and then give you the file.

That's two pages it adds to the link. The site owner puts in code like [ a href="files/images.zip" ] but tripod will automatically intercept any request for a file and make it go through another page first.

Also, though a newsgroup, I just heard from one person that "the Tripod download thing also doesn't work in Opera :-| I have to resort to IE or Mozilla if I want to download stuff from Tripod..."

If her site is heavy on downloads, she does NOT want to host there!

See if you can download the suface zip files from this site: http://members.tripod.com/~nearworlds/tgsurface/

The url to the file, copied from the PAGE is http://members.tripod.com/~nearworlds/tgsurface/srf_all.zip

So why does it go to another page without letting me download it? Hmmm?

Supposedly they are doing it to "stop badwidth theft." but hello, running databases to create pages on the fly takes up their resources too!!! And it discourages people from getting the files, if they don't just assume that the links are BROKEN, that is.

This is why I dis-recommend tripod. Check it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 09:45 PM

Tripod & GeoCities make it like pulling teeth to get anything done there. They have some VERY clever programmers who twist things until it 94.207% pain in the butt to download from them...

*sigh*,,,I'm afraid the theme song for the WWW now is,"All the Good Times Are Past and Gone"....all that hype where everyone expected everyone one ELSE to advertise and buy what was advertised was a real 'house of cards'. 'Free' sites and storage and phone calls, etc...were just until they realized that most ads were ignored, and the $$$$ stopped flowing into them.

We shall see how it all plays out.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST,Rose, "The Record Lady"
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 10:37 PM

I thank y'all for discussing my situation and offering your suggestions. Bottom line is I need 1000+ MB's of space to continue with the website I now have at Spree that WILL be deleted as of 9/20/01. Spree will no longer host ANY websites, free or otherwise after 9/20/01...

The few FREE severs that remain offer between 10 and 50 MB's of space, and most of those have bandwidth usage restrictions...I currently get over 3000 visitors a WEEK to my main page, so I suspect that the bandwidth usage is really high with all the streaming and dowloading going on. It's been suggested by some listeners that I get PAID webspace and then charge a "membership fee" for folks to listen to the music. I REFUSE TO DO THAT!!!

Some have suggested that I ask for "donations" from the listeners to pay for webspace...I don't want to do that, either, but might try it at some point...but I doubt that would bring in enough revenue to pay the costs...I am in financial trouble and could not even afford to pay $5 a month for webspace...

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

Rose, I think a lot of us understand your thinkkng about not charging a membership fee. We love our music and don't want to see it commercialized. If what we do for a hobby turns into a business then we could no longer enjoy it. However, I would have no objections at all to sending a donation if asked just for the privilege of having a wonderful site like yours available. I have yet to find any other site with as complete a collection of the music I grew up with and still love. The site is also user friendly, which is really good for computer illeterates like myself! *BG*....

I know right now you have other worries to contend with, but if you get a chance and don't mind would you look into what you would need per month to keep the site on another server?? I'm sure quite a few of us Mudcatters would be more than happy to help out to preserve such a wonderful resource! How about it gang???? Am I correct??

Whatever the outcome, do know that you are always welcome and among friends here at the Mudcat Cafe!!!

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: hesperis
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

1000+ MBs?!!!!!!!!!

Yikes!

Well, I'll look around for good hosting... see what I can find. I don't think draknet would like that much in the way of media files... Their service is excellent, so that'd be my first choice.

It would be good if we can get the new place set up before the old one runs out, because then you can put up a page redirecting people. At least until Sept 20th...

Anyone PM'd Max yet?

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:31 AM

I just PM'ed Max...Hopefuly he'll have a suggestion.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM

I just visited Melody Lane. It's main site is now closed while Jill looks for a new web hosting service. Yes, the good times have gone. It's like the beginning of the dark ages.

JAB

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:41 AM

Go to http://www.webservices.cent.com

She should look up, compare, and shop web-servers. For less than $300/year she can support HER HOBBY....but because it IS a hobby, she can cut it loose....we all cut...non-essentials during financial difficulties.

If she is "worried" about loosing all the "valuable information for posterity," don't worry; it has been "captured" in multiple places...and will continue as a phantom....a "snap-shot" of this moment in the "Webdom."

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:53 AM

That's only a part of it...Those of us who enjoy that site don't want to see it fade away for varied reasons and I for one am willing to help support it if it means continued success.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST,Rose, "The Record Lady"
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:14 PM

This is NOT "just a hobby" for me...I have felt it my OBLIGATION to share the music in my collection with folks who could not otherwise hear it, (for many years on radio and now on the internet). YES, I'm sure many have downloaded every song I currently have online, BUT, I have only just begun, and the music that's online now is not even the "tip of the iceberg" of what is to come if I can somehow continue. I am able to answer most of the requests I get from folks all over the world and I have a whole lot of them waiting to be included on Page 26, (if I'm ever able to get somewhere where I can do it).

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

Rose, for your own peace of mind, believe me that it is not your OBLIGATION. You are giving people a good service and no more.

I am hoping that maybe Max can make you a reasonable offer and I am also trying to join those looking for alternative sites that lie in the cheap/free range and match your requirements but so far, I have drawn a blank.

Maybe some subscription scheme could prove the only way. I don't know - folk music (I'd better say rather than country as its not a strong interest of mine - more I recognise what you are doing) has always been my thing and I believe in making music free for all (not that I begrudge anyone making a living out of it) but sometimes sheer practicalities make that impossible. Personally, I'd rather look into banner ads before subscription though.

Jon

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST,The "Record Lady"
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:57 PM

I will NOT go the "subscription" route!!! I have always shared my music for free (my radio years were on "volunteer" community and college stations.) I believe that my music on the internet should be "free" for those who love it and need and want to hear it. BUT, if the only way to insure that those folks are to be able to continue hearing what I have to share with them is to go to a server that has to be paid a monthly fee....and I can't afford that monthly fee...what's wrong with asking for donations from the listeners who CAN afford to help out? I guess it all boils down to just how important what I do really is to folks....

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 10:17 PM

"what's wrong with asking for donations from the listeners who CAN afford to help out?"

Absolutely nothing! Just hope you can make it pay that way!

Jon

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 10:38 PM

I suspect that publicity is the best way to attract attention, and we are 'pretty' good at that here at Mudcat

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

There's got to be a way to get these three sites under an umbrella that would cover their expenses, and Max's for cobbling them into a consortium technically. Here we have sites with high demand and usage, but no ads running-- even from companies that properly belong with them in serving the music-loving public. It just doesn't make sense.

~Susan

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:47 AM

I have loked at several places on the net that offer hosting services. None seem to neet the space requirements within an affordable price. If Max could figure a way that would be splendid!! Don't give up hope Rose, and ignore those few that would demean your efforts in helping others to enjoy the music that is 'real'. Thanks for all your efforts so far and wishes for your continued success...

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM

I know of a few other record collections that I wish the owners of were half as generous and creative! What Rose has done, and hopes to continue, is a valuble resource, and the very essence of what the WWW was supposed to be about.

Now, I have this question---what about peer-to-peer software (like Napster, only without a middleman) and/or donations etc. to allow Rose to operate her OWN server?!...I do know that there is software available to make my computer work as a server, though # of hits and such might limit this type of operation in terms of hours of operation...etc....Those of you who know more about this might elaborate.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Bill I don't know much about it but you probably already have software to make your computer work as a server as Windows 98 comes with the very limited Personal Webserver and I presume later versions have something similar.

The way I see it, perhaps wrongly, is that the real problem in terms of having your own server is the connection. I'm guessing that a reasonably specified PC would be fine as a server and that could be considered a one off purchase. Software can be cheap,and reliable - even FREE if you go down the Linux route but you still need to pay for a connection that is always their and has sufficient bandwidth.

I noticed in one of the threads that Max said he was giving up his T1 connection and going to something smaller and reducing operating costs. Does anyone know how much these services cost and also what you could expect to be able to host say using a cable connection?

Jon

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:36 PM

I just got a PM from a very-busy Max indicating his desire to help with Rose AND Melody Lane. I am following up with Pene Azul to see if the specs Rose mentioned will work. Contact me FMI.

~Susan

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:50 PM

... and a reply from Pene indicating this will be looked at.

~S~

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Brían
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM

Rose, I want to say I have enjoyed visiting your site as much as I did visiting your shop on Congress Squre. I hope everything works out.

Brían.

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

Oh that is exciting news, Susan! I really hope that someting can be worked out!! Praise Be!!!!

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:51 PM

wow...wouldn't that be great...(not holding my breath, as I don't look good in blue)

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:20 PM

It would take awhile to work out, if it CAN be done. The site usage is BIG...

Archiving what is there now should continue. I would hope Rose is setting up a small free site NOW to carry the address, provide updates, and say how to accept donations.

~S~

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: GUEST,Rose, "The Record Lady"
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM

Brian?...My shop on Congress Square?...you got the wrong person, dear...

Subject: RE: We're losing a good site!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:08 PM

hmmm...there used to be a "Rose's Record Shop" in Chicago...BIG place...*shrug*...maybe that's the place