BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary

Subject: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

From today's Internet Movie Database news page:

"PBS To Censor Newly Acquired HBO Docs


Concerned about setting off alarm bells at the FCC, PBS has decided to censor two of the three documentary films it has just acquired from HBO, PBS President Pat Mitchell told critics at their annual winter press tour in Los Angeles. He indicated that the scenes in question involved nudity and language. "Cable doesn't have to live with [FCC] regulations. We do," Mitchell told the TV writers. The cuts include a scene of a naked prisoner from the documentary Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State, which is due to air on Wednesday."

This is just downright cowardly, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

Compare that decision to this decision in Britain:

"NO CENSOR POWER FOR BBC GOVERNORS, BRITISH GOVERNMENT SAYS
The British government has turned down demands that it give the BBC board of governors authority to preview programs and alter them if they suspect they will be offensive. The demands came in the wake of an outcry by conservative and religious groups over the BBC's recent telecast of the hit West End musical Jerry Springer: The Opera. Several leading members of the opposition Conservative party had joined in the protest over the telecast, including deputy party leader Michael Ancram, who warned that the publicly supported broadcaster had a responsibility "to exercise a degree of caution."

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Janet Jackson's tit strikes again!

Odd thing is it is my understanding that PBS stations are exempt from the FCC on-air nudity reg's because, presumably, PBS nudity is within an artistic, historic or scientific context. Hell, I remember seeing Leni Riefenstahl's Olympia complete with hundreds of naked bodies on a PBS station way back in 1970. Surely things in Medialand have not gotten so conservative that PBS is willing to ditch a 35-year-old policy to appease a handful of prigs.

But then again, George W. Bush is president, Colin Powell's son is FCC commissioner, and the religious right has the country by the throat...   

(I wonder if the actors portraying female slaves in Roots would be allowed to be bare-breasted if that mini-series were made today?)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM

I just think PBS is kowtowing. There is no reason to censor something like this. None.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:43 PM

I saw those pictures of the naked holocaust prisoners on American black and white TV in 1956.
The FCC is clearly not going back to the good old days. They are going someplace else.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:03 PM

It's difficult to understand how nudity could be perceived as offensive in a documentary about genocide. Still, standards have to be maintained ... I know that the good folks who executed Il Duce and his mistress Clara Petacci and strung them upside down for all to see had the decency to tie her skirt to her knees so her panties wouldn't be on display.

WARNING: Contains picture of dead people: http://www.wmob.com/artpages/deadbenito1.html

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:09 PM

I think some corporate executives of the conventional kind infiltrated Public Broadcasting some time ago as their public funds dwindled and they devolved to a semi-commercial basis. Don't know if this affected the current reaction to the current climate.

Emotionally I agree that it is unnecessary and appears kind of cowardly to block out these scenes. But, I do not think PBS has gone spineless, I think they are going over a priority list that involves:

1)Keeping corporate sponsors happy
2)Keeping over-sensitive and hypercritical publicans happy
3)Choosing their battles

So I would grit my teeth, possibly drop 'em a line, and hope for better days.

(And Janet Jackson had nipple jewelry on. Technically she wasn't even exposed!)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM

One would think the standards for documentary footage in 1956 would have been more conservative than today, but it is the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM

I've seen naked people on PBS.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM

So have I. We see so much nudity in so many places that it just doesn't make sense, this entire backlash, that is currently being blamed on Janet Jackson's breast. It's not the nudity they are opposed to, it's the possibility that it suggests sex. Americans get such an oddball mix of images through various media anyway that the nudity=sex formula is presumed to be true but based on guesses and presumption. And why is this a considered problem? Because there are big groups of people who see sex as bad unless it is sanctioned by them. And lots of people want to control others by controlling their thoughts or actions regarding sex.

Let's guess who those people could be. . .

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:58 PM

P.S. the presumption that naked starved and abused prisoners fit into this whole formula is so ludicrous that it makes me wonder at the mental health of the individuals who want to dictate to everyone else about their sex lives and preferences.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

The BBC is about to show a series of Docs on the Nazi state as well. the first seems to be looking at all those people that worked at Auschwitz, the train drivers, attendents, signal men, and as the ad said "and I closed the door!" people. The ones history seems to have ignored so far in favore of studying the leading Nazis

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

Perhaps the similarities between Auschwitz and a certain Iraqi prison may hit too close to home. I hardly think that sexual content could be the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,artbrooks out of town
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:43 PM

I was unable to find this story at www.imbd.com. May we have a link, please?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM

They should show t in its entirety, people should be able to see what went on and remind them of what genocide truly means.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:39 PM

Sinsill hit the nail right on the head here... This ain't got nuthin' to do with nudity or language... It'a all about not wanting the American people to see just what the Bush regime and the Nazis have in common...

Again, I'll mention Riss Bellant's book "Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party" which follows many Nazis right into the Republican Party here in the US after the war... The Famed Republican think tank, the Heritage Council, was organized for the Repubs by former Nazi and Nazi syphathizers...

It is no wonder that, if history repeats itself, that we are seeing the same stuff out of the current batch of Nazis as the last bunch...

And while we're onte subject, guess what religion Hitler was a confessed member?

Bingo!

Bobert

p.s. This is not meant to be critique of Christianity as I am a follower of Jesus. Just a critique of folks who claim to be followers yet don't seem to have learned anything from the New Testament...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM

Nudity has as much to do with sexuality as mountains have to do with breasts. You can see a similarity if that's what you look for.

The spin that is put on 'concentration camps' (that was a death camp) has been with us for years. I would be interested to see what the Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies would have to say, because the question that will arise is this: Is the purpose of showing the documentaries still served with out those pictures. Sometimes a greater good is achieved. Maybe that is so in this case. And please, before anyone thinks I would even consider easing up those (many expletives deleted) Nazis, my ex father-in-law was a 'guest' of the glorious Reich for 2 1/2 years. He is still alive. Lucky I guess, if you can call that lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM

The guest seems to have quoted the entire article, which can be found here. I can't seem to locate it on IMDB either.

teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:29 PM

PBS To Censor Newly Acquired HBO Docs

No Censor Power for BBC Governors

Scroll down to the stories.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:31 PM

Thanks, T. One of the interesting things about this snippet is that it says, referring to Pat Mitchell, PBS President: he indicated that the scenes in question involved nudity and language. Pat Mitchell is a she. One assumes that the article is otherwise entirely factual.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:36 PM

Thank you for the links, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM

Unbelievable! A documentary about Nazi concentration camps where people were starved, tortured and killed and they're afraid people might be outraged by a glimpse of a penis or breast? Something is screwed up somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

Why not wait and see if it happens before hanging anybody (including PBS which I am not a fan of)?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:35 PM

Other than that preposition on the end of your sentence, you make a good argument, DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:09 AM

Oh dear. :)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:47 AM

Now that you know they're gonna 'change' it, if ya don't like it, don't watch it...

simple as that...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 08:47 AM

Dumbed-down programming for a dumb-downed country.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:42 AM

Anyone who believes that Abu Ghreib closely resembles Auschwitz doesn't know a God-damned thing about either one. And that *is* scary.

Am I really the first one here to see the absurdity of this?

The absence of a few seconds of nudity in a Holocaust documentary won't make a difference, but PBS should air the original dare the FCC to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:21 AM

The reason why they show the naked prisoners is to try to demonstrate how the Nazis had reduced these people to subhuman in their own view. By denying them dignity and brutalising their prisoners it made them easier to abuse, torture and kill.

I agree Abu Ghreib does not closely resemble Auschwitz in purpose or by the demographic of its prisoners or gaolers, but the treatment metered out to Iraqi prisoners invites a degree of parallel because the torturers are still treating their charges in a demeaning and violent manner by torturing them. The warning of Auschwitz is this behaviour is NOT tolerable in the civilised world, no matter who has power over who.

If you cannot see THAT, then that is truly very scary.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:45 AM

As modern military "torture" goes, Abu Ghreib was hardly more than an American fraternity initiation. Furthermore, the incident was fully investigated by the US Army itself and at least some of the idiots responsible have been charged. The first one to be court-martialed has just been convicted.

To me, people who are pleased that they can lump a few violators of regulations who humiliated a dozen prisoners with the Nazi government that slaughtered six million have some serious problems with perspective, however humane their intentions may be.

Our world is a rotten place and we have to learn to navigate it as best we can. One basic way is to recognize like and unlike.

America had slavery! Russia had the Gulag! Gorsh, I guess we're the same!

(Of course, what all this has to do with Janet Jackson's right breast mystifies me.)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

Sublimation. Shifting the focus. That's what her boob has to do with all of this. Sleight of hand. Distract people with the horror of her breast on tv and maybe they won't notice that you're really taking away a little more of your right to free expression.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:00 AM

Absurd

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:00 AM

Sorry--those pronouns didn't agree. "Distract people with the horror of her breast on tv and maybe they won't notice that you're really taking away a little more of their right to free expression."

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

I have also heard that NBC is possibly getting a fine from the FCC for using "naked" greek statues during its broadcast of the last olympics. All this brought to you by the same administration that allowed it's Justice Dept. to censor a statue that has been part of the federal collection for decades. What are they scared of?

As a sideline,
Does anybody else see a parallel between Iran/Contr (the fall of Ollie North) and the Abhu Graib scandal? Let the military folks take the fall? As far as I know no-one of high rank has really had to answer for this.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

The worst aspect of this is PBS' cowardice. They are censoring this program BEFORE it airs, claiming they MUST do this to avoid fines they can't afford.

If there were any broadcasters who OUGHT to stand up to the FCC, it is PBS. But as someone else pointed out, they castrated themselves before the Congressional committees holding their purse strings a long time ago, in order to keep paying their executives too much.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Like the 'Pretentious BullSh!t' station ever 'stood up' to anyone...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:45 PM

Well, that much is apparent, considering their banal documentary and cowardly "news" reporting, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM

BTW, I wonder how can you censor a program after it airs? Has anyone seen a statement ftom PBS, from Ms. Mitchell or anyone else, about this, or are we leaping into universal condemnation based upon a four-line statement in a virtual media magazine?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:50 PM

Iv been following the BBCs presentation of the Auschwitz documentary with interest.
Most of it is based on the diaries of Rudolph Hoss and an autobiography written after his capture at the end of word war 2.

Forget about the censorship of nudity, which is unimportant.

I read the book containing his diaries and autobiography a few months ago, and his account has been severely censored and pieces used out of context.
As most people on this forum know I have nothing but contempt for the Nazi regime and those who supported it, but its amazing to see history rewritten as in this documentary.

The writing of Hoss gives chilling look at Auschwitz and the "final solution" as seen through the eyes of the SS, and looking at the authoritarian regimes in place in America and to a lesser extent UK, it could all very easily happen again...Ake

PS   The book is "KL Auschwitz,as seen by the SS"

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:19 PM

When I was a kid, I saw some of the first pictures of Nazi extermination camps. Truthfully, this world is different for me for having seen them. Even as a kid who thought that cleavage was "holy wow" and Playboy the greatest thing since sliced bread, I could never look at the faces of naked women in some of those pictures and conceive of their breasts as sexualy stimulating objects. That is beyond any sickness I could imagine. So I have to wonder about anyone who feels morals and young minds will be corrupted by leaving the footage where it is. It's difficult to concentrate on tits when you have your head in a toilet bowl, puking because the vivid photographs of twisted, gassed bodies carelessly thrown into hastily dug trenches seems to address the darkest recesses of the human soul. I remember throwing up and wondering how this could have happened. And why it could have happened, and crying because the God I'd been told about had not only deserted his chosen people but had also deserted the rest of humanity, too.

Extreme censorship would not allow any of the documentary on television. So maybe people can be thankful that it will be shown at all. And maybe the horrors of that time--horrors that have been repaeted since in the killing fields of Cambodia and Uganda under Amin and Chile under Pinochet and Argentina under the junta and, and and--well, maybe our kids can learn something from that, and maybe that will help it never happen again. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

It is easy to grow bitter considering how much effort our generation threw into changing those mur ideas, only to find them surging back up a hundred fold under the fascism of Hussein, Bush, and a hundred earlier similar leaders, including Pol Pot and Johnson.

The convictions of force and violence come from deep springs, and raising up above them in an effective way is not a trivial task. Look, for example, at the weary and miserable distortion that has become Martin.


A

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:40 AM

I'm really not much help, being totally visually-impaired, but I'm watching (figure of speech; listening to, if you'd rather) "Auschwitz Part One" as I write. Lots of information there. I'm glad the entire thing wasn't nixed off the network, because I think it is important to learn about things, wonderful or horrific as they can be.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:41 AM

Here we go again! Bush is "a fascist"??!! So he and his policies are just like Mussolini, Franco, and oh yeah Hitler? Read some history and political science and spare us this bull! (Pol Pot was a Marxist by training and a super-Stalinist in action. Again, like Bush? Like Johnson? Where do people get this stuff?)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:56 AM

Okay, Guy who thinks, tell us what you would call Bush? But don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that he's a good hard-working Democratic man of and for the people, cause that he ain't.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

Give us a break, Guy Who Thinks--if you think, you keep it to yourself--what you do is ridicule those who disagree with you-- a tactic that is not consistant with freedom of speech--

Personally, I've studied a bit of history-enough to know that many former Nazis, like Bylorussian mass-murderer Emanuel Jasiuk were welcomed into to the US after the war, and were brought into the CIA, Radio Free Europe, and other areas where their special "expertise" was needed--Their is an abundance of information that shows these "New Americans" were actively involved in politics, particularly the Republican Party--

Those who know about this get a bit nervous when situations like "Abu Graib" come up, and when prominent officials in the odd Bush administration official paraphrases the ideas of Joseph Goebbels--

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

Pol Pot a Marxist? [splutter] same goes for Stalin. They can call themselves whatever they'd like, but they murdered, too. stalin and Hitler had a lot more in common than you'd think. They were both authoritarians.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:04 PM

Wikipedia:

"The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

    * exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
    * uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
    * engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
    * engages in corporatism."


On this scale, Hitler scores FIVE. Hussein scores FIVE. Bush, Johnson, and Blair score ZERO.

How do I describe George Bush? As a person of average abilities who was elected President by dint of his father's name and influence, his own talents and "people skills," and teams of shrewd speechwriters and PR people. He doesn't come from a poor or lower middle-class background like Jackson, Lincoln, Nixon, or Clinton, nor is he a kind of distant aristocrat like Washington or FDR. He is a political conservative, an ideology that, in the United States, transcends parties, though since the sixties by far the larger number of conservatives have become the Republicans.

Eighteenth-century conservatism was wedded to custom in nearly all things. In the twentieth century it has become considerably more "liberal." Bush, for example, favors some form of the Social Security System, a concept denounced as "socialism" by conservatives of the 1930s and later. While opposing gay marriage he does not, for example, urge the enforcement of anti-sodomy laws which remain on the books in many states. He opposes abortion, but does not claim that abortion doctors or their patients are guilty of murder. He supports women in the military, reform in education, and dozens of other policies that are so commonly accepted that nobody thinks of them any more as liberal/conservative issues.

Bush is well to the left of most of our pre-Wilsonian presidents, who by modern standards look like far right do-nothings rather than "conservatives." (But still not fascists.)

Bush has sworn to "uphold the Constitution," and despite gray areas (like the rights of presumed terrorists) that will be decided by the courts, he has done so. He is ultimately responsible for the prevention of further terrorist attacks on the US, and whatever you may think of his specific policies, he is obviously taking this responsibility seriously. Conservatives tend to be more religious than liberals, and some of Bush's positions (as on abortion and stem-cell research) are based on his religious beliefs. However, he has never urged Congress, for example, to grant Christians or religionists of any kind any special civic status, and he's not conducting Mideast policy according to Revelation. In other words, Church and State remain separate.

If you still think Bush is a "fascist," just consider the sorts of things that a fascist leader would be doing right now. Like revoking the Bill of Rights, eliminating political opponents, abolishing labor unions, legislating compulsory military training, ending academic freedom, making sure that big business worked mainly to meet government "needs," declaring white supremacy, etc., etc.

The PBS program will be a needed reminder of what fascism is really like.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:56 PM

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM

Guest...Gwt.

I notice that you dont mention the holding of people in Cuba without charge for years,in degrading conditions....a typical Nazi tactic.

Nobody is suggesting that we have a fully fledged Facist regime ,but the danger signs are there fo all to see.
The idea that any who dont concur with their ideology is "evil".
Claims that God gives his blessing to all their enterprises.
Insinuation that our culture is better than any other ,and worth exporting all over the world despite massive evidence to the contrary.
An Orwellian world of state snooping, digital data stored,on every member of our society.

These things and many other dont in themselves amount to Facism, but they are a slow insidious move down that road.
Soon it wont just be muslims that are interned without trial but any who protest against this corrupt system.
We must be vigilant, as the red tiled roofs of Auschwitz could lie just around the corner ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

Also...Unprovoked unilateral attack on another soveriegn nation is not exactly the action of a peace loving democracy..Ake