BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

OK then sciencegeek take the two sentences that you seem to have taken exception to:

1: "I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom."

It was the contention of one poster that Great Britain had made economic and political capital out of the famine. As yet I am waiting a response that provides substantive evidence that Great Britain benefited in any manner at all - we do know that the relief effort mounted by the British Government cost them £9.95 million pounds.


2: "It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

Depending on the perspective that statement is 100% correct - "Raised on songs and stories" - unfortunately all too true and most of them are wildly exaggerated I could make a list pointing out their historical inaccuracies but quite frankly I simply just cannot be bothered, one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.


By all means take a look at and evaluate the options open to the "authorities" in 1845 - 1849 regarding the problem they faced:

"Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE.

Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to:
a) Construct port facilities and dredge harbours
b) To build railroads
c) Build roads and bridges
d) Construct food storage and establish distribution networks

Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)

As for "especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet."

Your first two words render the rest irrelevant. I cannot understand how, or why you haven't picked up on it yet, but the NOW we are discussing are the years 1845 to 1851. But returning to your comment, I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet".

"Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".

Supports the points I have been attempting to make. The situation was unique and unparalleled in scale, there was nothing in place or worked out beforehand to cater with the situation as it developed. To put anything in place from scratch takes time, there is a learning curve and mistakes will definitely be made. Attempting to put forward the argument that things could be done as quickly in the 19th century as they can be in the 21st is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.

As does the direction to Irish (and NY) schools to teach that Britain was culpable even though it can not be justified in the opinion of most historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

You wouldn't perchance be splitting hairs regarding the word culpable would you Keith?

It's just that it is beyond dispute that our forefathers were guilty of horrendous actions but under the law of the day, Parliament wouldn't be culpable.

Logic chopping. The last refuge of the terminally wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."
Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?).
Britain under Russell chose to do nothing because it suited the Empire to cull a troublesome neighbour - the weevils in the breadbasket.
Starvation, locked warehouses, exploiting merchants, mass evictions...
Not worth a mention.
Cristmas Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:40 AM

Musket, I have no opinion but I note that most historians do not apportion blame.

I know you that think you know more about History than historians, but I do not join in your self-adulation and aggrandisement.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:18 AM

"Musket, I have no opinion"
Yu have no knowledge either - how could you have without having never read a book?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."

"Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?)." - your words Christmas - not mine

Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment.

As to shipping them off to America? Another myth, the vast majority of those who emigrated from Ireland did not go to America they went to the British mainland, next most popular destination was Canada and thence to the USA. Very few sailed directly to the USA for reasons that Cecile Woodham-Smith explains very clearly.

I believe the whinging ballads written retrospectively came a lot later down the track.

As for them deserving "everything God bestowed on them" if you try to find out what the Roman Catholic Church did to help their parishioners you will discover that the view you express was widely held and believed by both the people themselves and the clergy. (In one case they regarded the blight as God's punishment for the college at Maynooth accepting grant money from the Government - Dr Paul Cullen, Rector of the Irish College in Rome. While in 1846 a Father Theobald Mathew, stated his opinion that the, "potato crop was no more than one wide waste of putrefying vegetation....due to Divine providence again pouring out upon us the vial of its wrath.")

This letter of Trevelyan's that you seem to like waving about like a flag yet seem unable to comprehend if indeed you have ever actually read it castigates the land owners, identifies the need to move people off the land so that agriculture can be reformed so that enough food can be grown and the population sustained.

Russell and the British Government did nothing!!! £9.5 million more than all other forms of aid received lumped together by quite a significant margin. That £9,500,000 would be the equivalent of £1,045,000,000 today, our last hand-out to the Irish Government amounted to £7,000,000,000 - you might knock it all you want, the one thing you cannot do is deny that it was ever given.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM

" chronic food shortages and unemployment"
Which is more or less what happened to them in America - plus extreme open racist abuse and eventually being enlisted into a Civil war which led to the slaughter of many thousands of them - where the **** do you think they went - the Land of Milk and Honey - Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WHITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland.
The alternative was to continue and develop Peel's efforts - they stated categorically that Britain's economical interests must come first
You and your racist buddies choose to ignore that statement
The fact that other God Botherers shared Trevelyan's view is totally immaterial - it was the British government's responsibility to deal with it Peel tried to, Russell decided to throw the Irish to the wolves.
The Irish were systematically and unnecessarily driven out out Ireland because it suited the Empire - that is the fact of the matter.
You and Dozy Danny really have blown it "maudlin, idiot Irish" and him back to his "cultural implanted" Irish schoolchildren
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE."

So the MILLIONS of people who starved to death IN IRELAND did so because they refused to go???? Ships lay empty in the harbors waiting for them??? Give me a break.

And just where were they supposed to go??? America and Canada had problems absorbing the number of Irish that did make it to their shores. And ignores the numbers of would be immigrants that were lost at sea in the infamous coffin ships.

Pardon me, but it is your assumptions that I am finding idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)"

And if you can remember that far back, my statement was basically that logistics would make or break any plan... and 1840's western nations were not prepared to handle such a natural disaster.

I also never even implied that shipping food was a viable option... I did opine that introducing rutabagas to the area at the start of the blight would have had better results than what was actually done. My reason for that is that it is not in the nightshad family, so immune to the blight and could be grown along with cabbages - similiar growing needs- and was similiar enough to turnips to be a familiar crop.

And since I actually raise livestock, I am acutely aware of the cost of fodder and what it takes to transport it. And anyone interested in the logistics of transporting supplies using horse & mule transport, should read about the horse in the American Civil War. I think there is also a dvd out on the subject.

You also have avoided the fact that food products were exported from Ireland during the famine... one can not help but be struck by the irony. That alone supports my assertion that there were those whose motives were more in profit than humanitarian efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"."

neither are a goodly number of people who will not be very happy when it gets closer to home...

the critical word is "sustainable"... you might want to read up on population ecology. look closely at population doubling time and what can cause population crashes.

this was something I understood back in 1963 at the ripe out age of 12... my mistake was thinking that if a kid could figure it out, adults would be right on top of it.... sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM

Right for a start sciencegeek - millions of people did not starve to death in Ireland - so can we leave the inaccurate, hysterical, emotive, histrionics at the door.

Main causes for the drop in the population of Ireland between 1841 and 1851
1: Emigration largest number
2: Disease and illness
3: Malnutrition

Total number taking all three into account was 1.3 million according to census information. The ratios being something like 4:1:1

The vast majority of those who left took the short journey across the Irish Sea to England and Scotland and that is where they stayed. The myth that they all clung onto the hulls of "coffin" ships and drifted across to the USA and Canada is total bullshit - just like the millions in aid that was supposed to have been sent by the Americans to help out. The greatest charitable contribution sent from the USA came from American Plains Indians NOT the American Irish.

Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block.

Ah so we are not all on the point of starvation then - thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.

Now address my point above please.

After all, you love quoting historians and advocating their view, even with your convenient get out clause of saying you aren't saying it.

Not much point in saying it then, is there? Everybody else seems to want to debate. Do you know what debate means? Really? I'm asking it in a genuine attempt to find out. It would answer so many questions ..,,,

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:50 AM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

pardon me... ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine. Obviously they missed the boat over to Liverpool... because England was waiting to welcome them with open arms....

And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality... "On August 4, 1847, The Toronto Globe reported on the arrival of emigrant ships: "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again.

I'm stealing this from NOVA... "the human population growth curve is currently following an exponential curve or a "J-shape". Common sense tells us that such growth cannot continue - otherwise within a few hundred years every square foot of the Earth's surface would be taken up by a human. Furthermore, experience with other species tells us that, ultimately, resource limitations and/or habitat degradation will force the human population curves to approach an upper limit or asymptote - the carrying capacity, often symbolized as " K" by ecologists. It is very natural to ask the linked questions - does humanity have a carrying capacity and, if so, what is it - and when will we reach or overshoot this limit?"

Good question... and if the world population doubles in a single generation, it's vulnerability to famine increases. Do the math... Malthus did.

Climate change and land use decisions may diminish the earth's carrying capacity even faster. The reason why food was exported from Ireland is partly because England's change from an agrarian to industrial was taking place at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.

Agreed... but only to the extent that humans on the whole had options - if they weren't squimish about displacing other people or exploiting new habitats. I threw that in as an aside because the issue of more mouths to feed than food to feed them is not confined to history... it is an on-going fact... not some abstract concept to be ignored. However, the Irish were living on an island, not wealthy and not in a position to pack up and leave at the drop of a hat. Plus they, or anyone else for that matter, had no way of knowing that this blight would far more devastating than any previously encountered. Experience isn't always the best teacher... because there is always that new experience to be had.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM

oh... sorry - before some nit picker goes on about "not every Irishman was poor".. I will qualify that the Irish who suffered the worst because of the blight (you know them)... were the ones with limited options.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:15 PM

ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine.

Oh, well, that's all right then, innit, T-Bird?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

And that's circa 1 million that died IN IRELAND- doesn't count those emigrants that tried to escape the Famine & died on ships or in other countries from famine-induced diseases & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

I find it "interesting" that my "Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho." got transmuted into importing rutabagas for food...   

Since it was recorded as being present in the royal gardens in England as early as 1669 and was described in France in 1700, it was an unexplored option for an alternative crop. It may lack the higher caloric value of potatoes, but is high in nutrition and easy to cultivate. And for your information, introducing a crop is done by providing seed or root stock/cuttings so that it can be cultivated in the area of interest.   

So your snarky response was to a statement fabricated in you own mind.... "Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block."

The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex.

Here on Mudcat we spar & trade snarky comments, along with some downright obnoxious remarks... better than using suicide bombers to make your point, but equally unproductive.

Here in the US, there are those regard the less fortunate as parasites ... our treatment of the native population was nothing to be proud of... but there are still those who think it was "noble".

Human nature is a combination of traits that can be very positive or very negative and it was human beings and their actions/inactions during the potato blight that is being "debated/argued over" in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:33 PM

you can't really separate the malnutrition and the disease...Irish, despite the no food but potato and no drink but water were remarkably healthy and strong, tis said. Starving people can not attend to the most basic sanitation for example. A disease that someone would shrug off in good health would kill a famished person.

And the whole census thing must be looked at. Lots and lots were undocumented in their own country. They came out of the woodwork under some circumstances. Do you think the outlaws in the Galtee ?? mountains were censized?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?

Nowhere even remotely close to 1 million died - we do know with a fair degree of certainty that approximately 1 million people did emigrate

There might have been people not included in the censuses but it would be highly unlikely to extend to as much as 12.5% of the total population - that sort of number would be noticeable in a predominantly rural community, they have to have shelter, they have to burn cooking fires and they have to eat. The contention that a hitherto unheard of and unknown mass of 1 million Irishmen, women and children crept out of the woodwork to die just to stick it to the Brits is downright laughable. If you want to introduce the factor of "woolly" numbers then do so accepting the fact that it must be recognised that those inaccuracies work both ways.

Of course sciencegeek swedes were known about in the late 1600s and early 1700s "they were described in France" question is pal, who was actually cultivating them as a crop? - In the UK we know with absolute certainty that that didn't happen until the early 1900s - again True? So what on earth makes you think that, all of a sudden, growing swedes would immediately spring to mind as a solution to a potato blight that struck in the mid 1800s? Who would have come up with the idea? Who would have the necessary knowledge regarding this crop, who among the starving Irish would know what to do with it? Who would they have suggested it to? Who would have acted on it? Just how long would it have taken to mass the number of plants required (IF you could get them - Remember the blight hit Europe as well), ship them to Ireland, distribute them, then plant and grow them to the stage where they would have been of any benefit.

I am sorry once more you seem to blithely skate over the detail, ignore all the very real problems to offer up a totally unworkable solution then castigate the authorities for not following that through - Just try getting your head round the fact that in Ireland in the 1840s they couldn't even harvest and transport crops grown in Ireland to the west of their own country. They had a hard enough time transporting and distributing ground corn to centres of population. That was the reality that the authorities had to deal with and nobody anywhere in the world had ever had to deal with something on this scale before - personally I believe that they deserve being cut a bit of slack on that point.

" I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality"

I am sorry to disappoint you but the term "Coffin Ship" although associated with the transport of emigrants from both Scotland and Ireland has got nothing whatsoever to do with "the deplorable conditions" of the passengers onboard. It is an insurance term meaning any ship that has been overinsured and is therefore worth more to its owners sunk than afloat.

"The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex."

The only people wedded to defending their own positions are those who are stubbornly clinging to the myth that the Potato Famine in Ireland was all a deliberate plot engineered by Great Britain.

Example: "Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland."

I am sorry but that is complete and utter crap. It is complete and utter crap that does not even stand up to even the most cursory examination.

a) Great Britain was certainly ONE OF the wealthiest nations on the planet and in response to the situation in Ireland, Great Britain provided more in terms of aid and relief than every other source of aid donated combined by a factor of about three - the exact statistics are given in Cecile Woodham-Smith's book "The Great Hunger". Great Britain also received and absorbed the largest number of emigrants from Ireland.

b) By the mid 1800s the British Empire had started to go into decline and the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money according to historian and economist Niall Ferguson - so much for "INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER"

c) Had Great Britain really "washed their hands of the Irish problem" it would have been cheaper for them to simply sit back and do nothing, just as the American Irish did, just as the Roman Catholic Church did, just as the Irish land owners did.

I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made. The only thing is neither yourself or the likes of GregF and Christmas Carroll can be arsed to actually debate - you merely attack. Take your viewpoint as an example. God knows how many times I have now asked you just how things could have been done to feed the people in situ, reform their farming practices so that the next famine would not just be a few more years down the line - So far you have refused point blank to address those questions offering up instead alternative solutions that would have been impossible to implement at the time - YOU then stubbornly defend those impracticable solutions.

So just one last time. I do not care what the food is, I do not give a toss what the relief is - it could be Chinese take away for all I care.

How do you transport it to the people in situ? Taking into account that you have:
- No ports to ship in whatever it is that is required
- No storage facilities to hold these supplies
- No distribution network
- No roads suitable for large wagons, very few large wagons
- No fodder for horses, very few horses for that matter

While you are sorting all this out people are malnourished so they cannot work and people are dying. In this situation there is only ONE THING you can do that will be of immediate effect - you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die.

My only experience of anything like this was in 1970 the Bhola Cyclone that swept up the Bay of Bengal and struck East Pakistan killing 500,000 people - According to the New York Times "It remains the deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded, and one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern times.". The cyclone struck on the 12th November. Aid and relief efforts were drastically hindered by the situation between India and Pakistan - it took some 10 days before real intervention began, the Royal Navy sent the Amphibious Assault Ship HMS Intrepid and the Heavy Repair Ship HMS Triumph (ex-Fleet Aircraft Carrier). We arrived 12 days after the cyclone had struck, but we had flown advanced parties ahead to do the recces for us. We had 650 men, we had helicopters and we had landing craft to distribute food and materials, to land portable generators and to build shelters. In HMS Triumph we had our own fabrication facility that could damn near make anything mechanical or electrical we required, we had technicians who could be flown ashore to repair anything that required repair. The survivors we found were in a state of depression and total apathy, they had to be bullied into movement and action just in order to save themselves, otherwise they would have just squatted where they were until they died. Initially they could not be bothered to move a couple of hundred yards to where food and shelter were. Once they knew that there was food and shelter available the men could then be organised into teams to assist in the search and rescue, relief operations and clear up (Bodies being the greatest risk and health hazard - but once again the only option was to move the people in order to save them. One of the Pakistani Naval Officers acting as our Liaison Officer commented as the effort wound down, "Until the next time" When asked about it he said that the people accepted the cyclones and tidal surges as a fact of life, they would gradually steal back to places that they knew full well were dangerous, because those places were easier to farm and to fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM

"you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die."
Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what they did in Ireland - they drove them out and left them to fend for themselves in hostile environments
Presenting British (in)action as altruism is as stupid as it gets.
It's not even as if those left behind were assisted in any way - they were left to the mercies of 'the free market' - exploiting predatory merchants and evicting landlords.
It is difficult to find anything other than regional figures of evictions but when a police estimate calculated that 250,000 people had been evicted between 1849 and 1854 - they had started several years ealier than that and continued to the end of the century.
A summing up of the attitude towards tenants who were unable to pay their rents was summed up fairly neatly in this:
"West Clare was one of the worst areas for evictions, where landlords turned thousands of families out and demolished their derisory cabins. Captain Kennedy in April 1848 estimated that 1,000 houses, with an average of six people to each, had been levelled since November. The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.
After Clare, the worst area for evictions was County Mayo, accounting for 10% of all evictions between 1849 and 1854. The Earl of Lucan, who owned over 60,000 acres (240 km2) was among the worst evicting landlords. He was quoted as saying 'he would not breed paupers to pay priests'. Having turned out in the parish of Ballinrobe over 2,000 tenants alone, the cleared land he then used as grazing farms. In 1848, the Marquis of Sligo owed £1,650 to Westport Union; he was also an evicting landlord, though he claimed to be selective, saying he was only getting rid of the idle and dishonest. Altogether, he cleared about 25% of his tenants."
Repatriation - rebuilding, famine relief.
Sure it was!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM

once again, words have been put into my mouth....

and apples have been compared to oranges to reach the "obvious" conclusion that their position is "right" and all others "wrong".

A century before the Potato Blight, Jonathan Swift felt compelled to write "A Modest Proposal". A response to prevailing attitudes about Ireland and the Irish poor. Many made poor by discriminatory laws imposed by a "foreign" government. This is the historical background that laid the groundwork upon which later events took place.

I find that the "obvious solution" championed by Teribus to be remarkably similar to that used in America. Take away the land from the current inhabitants and then when they persist in trying to retain their way of life, find a way to remove them completely... or at least to somewhere that you have no use for.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:28 AM

here are some links to a more scholarly examination of the Irish Famine than what is currently occupying this thread.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/rwhyte.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/Famine.htm

"Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?"

oh... and comparing the census data from 1841 to 1851 is as meaningful as the answer 42 in the Hitchhiker's Guide.

Two data points without context is absurd... and no population biologist would ignore reproductive rates along with migration (both in and out) and mortality when positing their conclusions. Because your statement is only valid if in that entire decade no children were born or died... not the way I would bet.

Populations are not static... that is why you need to apply statistical tools with well defined assumptions... not "simple arithmatic". That only is valid to support the statement that the change in population is from this to that... and useless to expalin the "why" for the change.   

The 1841 figure includes all those born and still alive at the time of the census taking. And children born subsequently are only tallied if still alive and living in the census area. You need to know the reproductive rate of the studied population to infer approximate numbers... or hope that the birth/baptismal and death/burial records of that period exist and are reasonably accurate... to support a statement regarding just how many individuals perished or migrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made."

I agree only to the fact that you are arguing... with me and everyone else.

I make a statement to the effect that no one in that period was equipped to deal with the results caused by the potato blight and that logistics can make or break any relief plan... and you attack me for "ignoring" logistically problems???? You come across as a pompus jackass more in love with their own voice than interested in listening to others... or making a positive contribution to a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:19 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic."

No more idotic than building the "famine walls"... many still standing today.

"At the same time a board of works would embark on a massive new road construction programme to provide employment for the rural poor - this eventually culminated in the much despised 'famine walls' built up throughout the country, but particularly in the hills and mountains of the west of Ireland, where walls were built solely to provide work to peasants in return for food. More often than not these stone walls provided no economic or infrastructural benefit, but were built anyway."

Is this some form of "My country right or wrong." issue? You can be proud of your nation and still acknowledge the fact that nations are run by people... and not always nice or good ones at that.

I can be proud of the good things done by America and still accept the fact that slavery existed, the native population was exploited and exterminated in many cases and that we have had robber barons and yellow journalists creating war fever. The list goes on... right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:46 AM

Ah sciencegeek I didn't know that tin the USA you have a full census every year. In the UK we run them every ten years, and I hate to be so simplistic but if at one census the the population is detailed as being X and then ten years later the census gives the figure a X-Y then I know that over the course of that decade the population has dropped, and it gives me the number by which it has dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:05 AM

right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.

And the sooner the better. Ditto the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:15 AM

we have a census each decade, and even today must acknowledge that they are not 100 percent accurate.

HOWEVER... we use the data to establish the number of elected representatives to be assigned to each state or commonwealth and for guidance in deployment of federal aid.

IT IS NOT USED TO SUPPORT STATEMENTS REGARDING DEATH OR MIGRATION RATES OR TOTAL NUMBERS!

And THAT is my objection to your statement... "That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?" because you are using it in the context of defending your figure for how many Irish died during the Potato Famine.


Once again ... comparing apples to oranges as if there is any meaning to be found. So keep your snark to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:37 PM

I do not believe there was a fiendish plot to perpetuate the famine and cleanse the Irish. I think there was a combination of a natural disaster, overpopulation, overdependence (by fiat, not by choice of Irish) on one crop, poor logistics, delayed understanding of the extent of the problem, religious barriers, people taking advantage of religious considerations, dire threats to the survival of the landlords too, weather that made it all worse, total lack of infrastructure in places, etc.....I think that some people..English people..tried very hard to set some things in motion. ONe was to use money that had been reserved for draining land to put people to work doing something that would lead to actual food rather than building roads to nowhere and disrupting present roads. There was a big plan to send a huge number of people to Canada that was considered. Some landlords did all that they could; some were horrible; some had no resources themselves. Some landlords were called to Parliament to explain their actions during the famine.

There could very well be two definitions of coffin ships but the Irish call them by that name referring to the death that took place on them during emigration...it is a very common name that everyone almost of Irish descent knows.

Irish were luckier in some respects than the Ukrainian sufferers..at least the landlords wanted them gone. The serfs of Ukraine were kept there to starve..and if you want to see what your Irish ancestors probably looked like, you can google pictures and videos and interviews of still living survivors of the Ukrainian famine..hodolomor???

It is a complex mess that has been and probably will be repeated throughout the world. To me a sustainable population, with sustainable agriculture, combined with relief efforts combined with the natural efficiency of free markets and charity are things that need to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:49 PM

One of the problems in discussing the Famine is that unless you are Irish and/or live in Ireland, you are not talking about history - something that happened a century and a half or so ago - how the famine was handled changed Ireland socially and culturally.
I have lived here for fifteen years and have collected songs and social history in this area for 40 years.
I cannot think of a single family that has net been effected by emigration.
I sat in a music session last night and realised that there was not one person in the pub who had not worked abroad at one time or another.
I've just annotated our collection of 400+ songs, a large percentage of them locally made emigration songs, not harking back to the Famine, but reflecting the period from 1850 to the present day. New songs are still being composed; a Country and Western singer in Connemara is composing emigration songs in Irish to reflect was is happening there today "whining dirges, no doubt!.
Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it (if this is true, think of the consequences if Ireland had been forced to participate in the W.W.1, obscenity, as was intended).
Nobody is claiming that all this is entirely the fault of Britain; Irish political incompetence and corruption added to an already unsolvable problem.
Britain's two great legacies to Ireland were Immigration and sectarian conflict - the Celtic Tiger was a bit of a miracle really, but the bankers and politicians managed to kick that one to death fairly efficiently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:51 PM

very interesting points raised, Jim

since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population. I would like to point out also that the middle 19th century was the second wave from Ireland... 1799 saw quite a few who came over for "health reasons"... it being very unhealthy to stay after the failed rebellion. My father-in-law's family are descended from one such fellow who settled in Lake Placid.

And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Many of the Irish descendants make at least one trip to Ireland in their lifetimes. And not a few of my folk music friends are Irish or Anglo-Irish that have become naturalized citizens, as well as those from England and Scotland. I have to say.. they all get along far better than some of us here on Mudcat.

In America, two of our early presidents were also deeply committed to improvements to agriculture and that legacy had a lasting effect on our country. That same period in time saw many of the arguably brightest & best, potentially natural leaders in Ireland to be lost - either executed, deported or fled. I have to ponder an alternate reality where these people were able to stay in Ireland and how they would have responded to the challenge of the blight...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:10 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.
Now address my point above please.

When I talk of historians, I mean people whose profession has been the study of the period.
You can call yourself anything you like, and you do, but it does not make it true.

What is true is that many historians find there is no case for blame over this catastrophe.
What is also true is that their's is the dominant view and has been for a very long time.
Many people have a vested interest in keeping hate alive, and are prepared to use false History to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM

Very good post mg probably the best summation in the entire thread.

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH - I would refer you to Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive work on "The Great Hunger" in which she explains the criteria required for those wishing to take direct passage to the ports on the eastern seaboard of the United States of America as opposed to those sailing to Canada. Greatest point of entry into the United States of America during the period we are discussing was Chicago, those people having landed in Canada, travelled up the St. Lawrence and over the Great Lakes.

Previously sciencegeek you mentioned two "Coffin Ships", one which sailed to Canada and the other that sailed to New York:

" "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again."

Now then in all honesty with 20 x 20 hindsight I can tell you which ship I would have preferred to have sailed in.

On the "Virginius" any idea of how many of those passengers who boarded the ship brought the sickness with them? Of the second if the ship was on direct passage to New York it would not have been permitted to enter port with sickness onboard, it would have been compelled to remain offshore, or it could divert to Canada, which most of the ships caught in this predicament did - "Give me your sick and needy indeed", fine words pity nobody in the US actually at the time lived up to them - Canada to her credit did. The other more obvious reason as to why the ship was "never heard of again" was that she foundered - I think sciencegeek you would be amazed at the number of sailing ships that did do just that, the percentage was staggering (Something like between 20% to 30% - in the pre-Plimsoll Line days two routes with the worst reputation were Cape Horn of course and the North Atlantic run, there was a very good reason for there being a specific load line for Winter North Atlantic)

Now I will give you the name of another of your "Coffin Ships" - "The three masted Barque the "Jeannie Johnstone", 154 ft long, built in 1848 and owned by two Merchants from Tralee. Between 1848 and 1855 she made 16 voyages carrying emigrants to Canada and to America - the numbers carried depended on her destination varying between 193 and 254 - in all that time not one single passenger died. She was a trading vessel taking people to the new world and bringing timber back, so vessel turn round time was important so the Jeannie Johnstone carried a doctor, as did other "Coffin Ships". Jeannie Johnstone was lost crossing the Atlantic with a load of timber in 1858, she became waterlogged and her crew climbed and clung to the rigging as their ship slowly sank beneath them - the crew were rescued by a Dutch ship - Jeannie Johnstone maintained her perfect safety record right to the end" A replica of the ship was built and launched on the 6th May 2000, today it is moored on the River Liffey in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:19 AM

The Westminster government of the day and their reaction to the famine was debated in a training course I attended in safeguarding children and vulnerable adults a few years ago.

Basically, on the premise that the government felt they couldn't interfere with market forces, or Adam Smith philosophy as it was, we were asked to debate whether their reaction would constitute abuse. The answer the guy was looking for was yes.

Abuse by neglect.

By pressing "submit message " and having my post analysed by Keith, that makes me a historian. I might put it on my cv. Beer doesn't buy itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:47 AM

Do not sell yourself short Musket.
Not just a historian, but a fucking important historian!
Right?
And obviously you know much more about History than those mere professional and academic historians.
"Those historians should know better" as you are want to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:00 AM

The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables.
Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that.
You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains.
This from the excellent 'The Famine Ships' by Edward Laxton (1996)

"For ship owners, captains, crews and agents, this sudden increase in the passenger trade all the year round, was very welcome. Whereas in previous years they had operated a lucrative three-sided business - timber, iron, tools, salt and varied cargo down to West Africa; slaves out to America; cotton, tobacco, wheat and provisions back to Europe -outward-bound passages had been losing money. The Na¬poleonic Wars had ended around the turn of the century, completely upsetting the balance of trade in Europe. In particular, the price of timber had soared five-fold: the forests of Canada had more than enough wood to satisfy demand in Europe, and it was cheaper to buy there and ship it home. It was cheaper still if cargo could be found for the westward crossings and once again the human cargo, emi¬grants instead of slaves, provided the answer. Within a year or two it would provide more revenue than Canadian timber sailing eastwards.
Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged.
American packet ships of more than 1,000 tons, with triple-decks were built in the late 1840s specifically for the emigrant trade. They would carry more than 400 passengers, some in private cabins. But by no means all the ships were custom-built. When the British Queen first put to sea in 1785 she needed several major repairs before she could carry passengers on regular voyages from Liverpool to New York. And when the Elizabeth and Sarah achieved infamy in the fever year of 1847, she had been at sea for 83 years.
Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th cen¬tury. The European slave traders finally ended their activities barely a dozen years before the onset of the Famine and the Arab slavers continued to ply well into the 1860s.
There were tiny vessels like The Hannah with a crew of six and measuring only 59 feet - about the same length as four family cars parked bumper-to-bumper. She was converted from a coaster by the addition of a third mast to enable her to go into deeper waters, and sailed to New York five times, from Dublin, Cork and Limerick, with a complement of only 50 or 60 passengers crammed below in a single hold.
These Irish men and women were not always welcome on arrival in their new homeland, for this desperate migration represented cheap labour, a threat to the established Amer¬ican workforce. But they dug canals, built roads and laid railways, they became seamstresses and servants.
The alternative was to stay at home and starve. A meal, a job, a place to rest, a chance to survive was all the Famine emigrants asked. They left Ireland by sailing ship every day, summer and winter, for six years while the Famine lasted, to make the 3,000 mile journey across the Atlantic Ocean."

"When I talk of historians"
You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians - you have never read one of their books - you've already told us that.
Between the pair of you, your combined knowledge is representative of 'The Bernard Manning School of Celtic Studies' and apparently coming from the same place.
Historians have never been in doubt as to what caused the catastrophe rising from the Blight - the policy of the Russell Government as interpreted by Trevelyan
As Kinealy points out, for various revisionist reasons that have never discussed who was to blame in detail - she and her fellow historians are now doing so.
The bad news is that you are going to have to actually read what they have to say rather than carefully select out-of-context and distorted snippets to back up a long-held prejudice.
That's what knowledge is all about.
In the meantime, your pompous pronouncements are of little more than entertainment value.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:05 AM

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH"

what the heck is wrong with you???? once again, you have altered what I said... "since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population." and then proceed to argue with what I supposedly said. I also went to state that there had been more than one influx of Irish refugees.

and have you never heard of Ellis Island? I give you a quote from our National Park site...

Ellis Island opened in 1892 as a federal immigration station, a purpose it served for more than 60 years (it closed in 1954). Millions of newly arrived immigrants passed through the station during that time–in fact, it has been estimated that close to 40 percent of all current U.S. citizens can trace at least one of their ancestors to Ellis Island.

There is an online list of names of those who passed through the station... and that is only since 1892... ships have been bringing settlers to New York since it was under Dutch control in the 1600's
If that isn't a major port... what is? New York City is noted for it's ethnic neighborhoods... the result of the many varied immigrant groups that landed in NY and never left.

I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again...

and if you think I have no idea what happened to the ship that was lost... well, you are just demonstrating what a pompous ass you must be.

kindly remove your head from your anal sphincter... it will give you a clearer view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

oh... maybe I should mention that both my great grandfather and my grandfather had their captains papers...

Jesse Williams skippered small coastal vessels along the eastern seaboard. My grandfather, George, was an able bodied seaman on coastal steamers, but after his third shipwreck worked the Steel Pier in Atlantic City to raise enough money to buy his own boat... which he ran for almost 40 years out of Cape May NJ... taking out day fishing parties. One of the first to do so... and not bad for a guy who lost his right arm when he was a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:41 AM

I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important.

Do keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians

The only knowledge I claim is that many historians do not support the version of events you have posted at enormous length.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.

Kinealy is not one of those but she concedes she is in a minority.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:33 AM

Anybody interested in the details of the migrations really should get hold of Terry Coleman's seminal work on the subject 'Passage to America' - he's done as excellent study of the subject as his did on the Navvies - indispensable.
As excellent as Mrs Woodham Smith's book is, it if far too thinly spread to be relied on for detail.
Keith has told us she is a "revisionist" so nothing she wrote can be trusted anyway - and he should know!!
A quote from Coleman's book from a contemporary source:
"Before the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor people, men, women, and children, of all ages, from the drivelling idiot of ninety to the babe just born, huddled together without light, without air. wallowing in filth and breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleeping places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of the disease; by their agonized ravings disturbing those around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the imagination, to imbibe the contagion; living without food or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual charity,dying without the voice of spiritual consolation, and buried in the deep without the rites of the church."
Coleman devotes an entire chapter to the brutal treatment meted out by the ships crews to Emigrants.

"That is the truth and you can not deny it."
You have never read a single book by a single historian so you cannot possibly know what any of their opinions are - you cannot deny that
I can deny what I choose and you would have no grounds for contradiction other than your pre-conceived bigotry.
Interesting that Kinealy has now been relegated to a "minority" rather than in the hallowed ranks of your "all historians" though - amazing what the presentation of a few facts can do.
Go read a book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:57 AM

Hate to point this out to you but the period currently under discussion is that between 1845 and 1851!!! So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything. What your grand-sires did or did not do bears no relevance to the subject under discussion.

New York was NOT a major destination for immigrant ships in the period under discussion - if it had been then all those immigrants would have had to have proved the following before even embarking in Ireland or England:

- That they were in good health
- That they were not Chinese
- That they had goods or hard currency to the value of £20
- That they would not be a financial burden to the port or community they landed in.

It was because of those criteria that the vast majority of Irish emigrants who crossed the Atlantic to escape the famine sailed to ports in Canada where none of the above applied. It was then extremely easy for them to cross the land border from Canada into the USA as again none of the above conditions applied.

"I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again..."

Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died. The truth of the matter is - Did people die whilst on passage - YES they did - Did they die in vast numbers? - No they did not when compared to the number that landed and went on to settle in both Canada and the United States of America. Did the British Government deliberately and with intent put those people on ships to die in droves? No they did not, they did not put anybody on ships period - that was the personal decision of the individual. What ship they boarded and what destination they selected were entirely up to the people wishing to emigrate themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

"I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important." - Musket

Not to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:32 AM

"So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything."
The subject under discussion is The Irish potato blight
The effects of that blight lasted from 1845 to the present day - that's WTF our fiend's comments have to do with the discussion, but on the other hand - when in doubt, bluster and bully your way out.
You talk about whatever you wish Terrytoon - the rest of us will discuss the subject in hand
"Not to me."
nd you, not to anybody else other than yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:35 AM

"our fiend's comments"
And before you try to capitalise on typos - that is exactly what they were
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

For Keith - from Neilson - another "minority" view from one of your own historians
Jim Carroll
"The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?

"The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables."

Really? Who was it treated as a business by? Perhaps by ship owners and those importing timber into Great Britain but not by the British Government.

"Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that."

I would say that most fell into the category of those hastily adapted as they could be likewise hastily re-adapted to carrying a cargo back from either Canada or America – Ship owners are funny that way they prefer not to have their ships running about the world's seas and oceans in ballast. If the ships were British flagged vessels then very few of them would have ever been slavers by the mid 1800s (Slave Trade Act 1807 prohibited British ships from carrying slaves).

"You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains."

And that Christmas had been the bog standard way of creating cabins in Merchant vessels for hundreds of years. If you go onboard HMS Victory your notice will be drawn to the fact that ALL accommodation was temporary – even Lord Nelson's. Merchant vessels had to carry cargo and were designed for that purpose and warships were designed so that they could be fought by their crews and the only space allocated on their decks was for guns, pumps, capstans and rigging.

I can see from your quoted excerpt why you deem Edward Laxton's book a work of such excellence. It conforms to your prejudices.

One wonders why the good Mr. Laxton didn't fasten on the voyage of the Virginius related to us by sciencegeek – that made the voyage of the "Elizabeth and Sarah" look like a pleasure cruise.

"Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged."

And what Mr Laxton fails to mention, rather conveniently for Christmas's point of view, is that most of those ships landed the vast majority of those who travelled in them safely on the shores of either Canada or America.

"Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th century. "

Not if they were British ships. I believe that even the Americans prohibited the building or fitting out of slavers at round about the same time (1807).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

One of my own?
I have none, and I never claimed an "all historian" agreement.

I did point out that your vast acreages of posts were just one version of events.
I did point out that there was disagreement among historians, and that is the undeniable truth.
Kinealy has said that revisionists are the dominant view and have been for nearly ninety years.
That too is an undeniable truth, so what exactly are you accusing me of?