BS: Well done the RAF & Navy

Subject: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:45 PM

They have done a great job in evacuating British people from Libya in very difficult circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

Indeed Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:12 PM

The BBC never conveniently never reported yesterday that sandstorms were preventing flights from Tripoli to Desert Camps to pick up British and other oilfield workers - interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:40 PM

In my Hercules days, I remember being positioned to Akrotiri (Cyprus) with 5 other crews.

When we got there, we found out we were waiting to go into Libya at low level, to do the same thing.

Needless to say, we had a few glasses of vino whilst the politicos made up their minds, as it happened, we weren't required. Oblivion DOES exist at the bottom of a wine-glass (but not as a way of life).

From my perspective, YES the guys and girls did a great job - WELL DONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: gnu
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:41 PM

Might have made the extractors and extractees more vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:22 PM

"The BBC never conveniently never "   ???????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 02:44 AM

Just as well that this blew up when it did, another six months down the line and there would have been no ships and no aircraft to do this. As it was the British Government had to borrow an aircraft from BP.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:13 AM

I'm just very relieved to know we still have one ship and one aeroplane left!   

Phew!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:12 AM

The Royal Navy and the RAF did a wonderful job, the British Government part was a fuck up.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 06:38 AM

"the British Government part was a fuck up"

The media would certainly have us believe that, but then they would have us believe that of any government. Any such "rescue mission" never just happens, unless you are Israelis!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 07:32 AM

Of course these oil men working in the Libyan desert are pretty tough nuts who know how to look after themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 08:32 AM

Here in New York we have a long tradition of patting the Brits on the back for a good job of evacuation. We have a holiday, celibrated for decades, and brought back by the late Paul O'Dwyer, called Evacuation Day, which celibrates the British evacuation of New York.

As they left, they nailed a Union Jack to a greased flag pole on the battery. A young fellow drove nails through his shoes and while the fleet was still in the harbour, climbed up and tore down the Union Jack and nailed up the stars and stripes.

The holiday is celbrated by climbing a greased flag pole and doing the same... a sort of race day.

The US is now in a possition where it should also get more used to a good evacuation, and there are a number of places which may someday adopt the New York holiday.

So, to all our British cousins, have a happy evacuation.

All the best
Lorcan Abu

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 10:05 AM

Our forces are wonderful.

I'm just very relieved to know we still have one ship and one aeroplane left!   

Phew!!!!

LOL Lizzie :)

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:34 PM

And there are plans to retire that ship if it ever makes it back to port.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:49 PM

Uh Oh....

Just the aeroplane then, Charley?

Do we have a Tank left?

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 01:05 PM

Tanks are no good - just planes with propellors!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 07:29 AM

Oh, a reflection from a pal in Wiltshire, when I read him this thread... "Well, we SHOULD be good at evacuatins, after all we've evacuated from Afghanistan five times now..."
Cheers all
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 07:43 AM

Here's the update story of the HMS Cumberland via Wikipedia:

On 22 February 2011, British Foreign Secretary William Hague announced that HMS Cumberland, while transiting the Mediterranean on her return to the UK for decommissioning, would be redeployed to Libyan waters where she will assist in Operation Deference, the evacuation of British citizens and other nationals affected by the 2011 Libyan protests.[8] Cumberland entered the Port of Benghazi on 24 February, leaving the same day for Malta with an international collection of passengers that included British, European and American nationals.[9]

It was announced that the ship will be scrapped in April of 2011 in a government spending review in order to meet UK government cuts to the MOD.[10]

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM

The Con/Fuckwit coalition have already exhibited breathtaking shortsightedness, whatever next ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:47 AM

The same shortsightedness perhaps that if elected, a labour government may have also made!!

A double subjunctive!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:30 PM

ANY comment on Auntie Beeb about a possible rescue flight would have alerted Gaddafi and could have jeopardised the mission !!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 03:10 PM

Ah yes bonzo the tory/fuckwit apologist.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 03:51 PM

HMS Cumberland is primarily an anti-submarine frigate designed to operate against Soviet submarines. Not so much use for her now!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:43 PM

Unless you are at all concerned that Russia has embarked on a huge re armament programme

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:47 PM

October 2008
Last week, Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, announced a dramatic rearmament programme that would see the construction of new missile defence system and the mass production of warships and multi-purpose submarines.

Vladimir Putin, the prime minister, also announced that defence spending would increase by 27 per cent next year to £54 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: J-boy
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 12:43 AM

Shouldn't the Royal Navy have at least one Yellow Submarine?

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 12:56 AM

"The Con/Fuckwit coalition have already exhibited breathtaking shortsightedness, whatever next ?"

Hate to bring the point up Mr.Hanson but the last real Defence Review we had that did actually look at Defence was in 1998 Now who was it that point blank refused to fund it, then raided our coffers to the extent that agreed programmes had to be curtailed?

The last SDSR was Gordon of Cartoon's idea but was deferred until after last May's election. The mess that Labour left the country in meant that it was never going to be a review of strategic or defence needs or requirements it could only ever have been a cost cutting exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Brian May
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 07:49 AM

Hitting 'defence' spending is always the easy option, because by the time you realise you've got it wrong, it'll be too late to do anything about it.

Mind you, the French will protect us . . . they might even lend us and aeroplane so we can play with our new super-duper carriers.

I believe the lunatics are running the asylum (politicians of all flavours, it really doesn't seem to matter what colour tie they're wearing).

I notice there's a deafening silence from Labour and that nice Mr Bliar regarding Libya. I wonder if he's had the grace to squirm with discomfort.

For once I have to agree with the outrage of (mainly American) relatives of the PanAm 747. I really DON'T understand how the Americans can tolerate Bliar, he was up to his neck in the Megrahi release.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Arnie
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM

How ironic that Cameron announces that the UK is backing a no-fly zone over Libya, and a few hours later Liam Fox the defence secretary announces 11,000 forces to be axed - including RAF pilots and ground crew. Today Cameron seems to have gone cold on the idea of a no-fly zone but has instigated a review to see what would be involved. Unlike Bliar, Cameron seems to have realised that the UK can no longer be a world policeman. Shame he opened his mouth before he put his brain into gear but at least he is now backing down rather than sending what's left of our forces to the Med. As the US and other Nato allies don't seem too interested either, it looks like the Libyans are going to have to sort this one out for themselves. The best we can do is to help out with humanitarian aid at the border crossings.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:24 AM

InOBU,

Speaking from a second-generation Irish perspective, if I were ever in peril overseas (for whatever reason) I'd certainly want anyone coming to rescue me to be from the British armed forces. The Israelis also used to be good at this sort of thing but given the way they handled the landings on the relief ships last year I'm not so sure now.

As for other countries' forces, the Russian approach seems to be 'Kill everyone and let God sort it out' and as for the Americans - well, am I the only one who remembers the Iranian hostage 'Rescue' in 1980? Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM

And the rescue of the young aid worker in Afghanistan last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done toperational aircrahe RAF & Navy
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:31 PM

I think that Cameron could have consulted with the Government of Malta or the countries with an operational aircraft carrier before promoting his no-fly zone. It's a long way from UK airspace!

And this would have been considered a declaration of war by Gaddaffi as any fule kno.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

I think that Cameron could have consulted with the Government of Malta or the countries with an operational aircraft carrier before promoting his no-fly zone.

What makes you think that he hasn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 11:05 AM

Fortunately for Cameron, Britain has an operational aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean. It's called Cyprus.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

We've still got an aircraft carrier (Illustrious), just haven't got any fixed wing aircraft to put on it.

Anyway it did seem that France would come in on the deal. But not the 'Mercans. Sounds just like Suez!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 10:54 PM

Hi Chris B:

We Quakers are not big on nations getting us out of trouble, we gennerally do rather well, as we are known for our good works in places the US and Britain have, well, been less than popular.

I agree, the US is not great at evacuations, remember Vietnam? I frankly backed the other horse in that particular race.

As to British evacuations, I seem to recall British soldiers fireing at the French trying to get into the boats at Dunkirk... and showing them their bow fingers... ah well...

But as far as being evacuated by the British... well... it was rather crowded on the boats when your lot left much of Ireland... so my family decided to stay awhile.

CHeers,m'dears
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

Dunkirk evacuation.
In the nine days from 27 May-4 June, 338,226 men escaped, including 139,997 French, Polish and Belgian troops, together with a small number of Dutch soldiers, aboard 861 vessels (of which 243 were sunk during the operation).

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

Here is a good little piece, credits below...

The evacuation from Dunkirk, codenamed "Operation Dynamo, " commenced on 26 May. It was originally hoped that up to 45,000 men might be rescued. The actual total came to 338,000 men.
Lord Gort was instructed not to inform his French and Belgian colleagues that the evacuation was beginning. South-east of Dunkirk the British withdrew their units, leaving seven French divisions alone to face the advancing Germans. The French fought on until their ammunition was exhausted and managed, like the Belgians, to tie down German forces that would otherwise have been available to assault the perimeter of Dunkirk.
As British and French troops retired toward Dunkirk, Admiral Sir B.H. Ramsay organized the sea lift to England. After the French government protested, a written order was issued commanding that French troops be embarked in equal numbers with the British. In practice this was not carried out. Harmon records that when Frenchmen tried to board boats on the beach, Royal Navy shore parties organized squads of soldiers with fixed bayonets to keep them back. On at least one occasion a British platoon fired on French troops attempting to embark. Only after practically all the British had escaped were efforts made to evacuate the remaining French soldiers. But when the port surrendered to the Germans on 3 June, over 40,000 French soldiers were captured.
Perhaps the most memorable aspect of the evacuation was the role played by civilians in their small boats. Harmon explains that this is just part of the myth. The British public was not informed that an evacuation was underway until 6pm on 31 May. A Small Vessels Pool, based on Sheerness, did assemble a large number of small civilian craft. But most of them were useless for evacuation work. Only on the last two days of the withdrawal did civilian volunteers play a role in rescuing an additional 26,500 men from the beaches. Their contribution, notes the author, "was gallant and distinguished; but it was not significant in terms of numbers rescued."
From:
The Miracle of Dunkirk Reconsidered
CHARLES LUTTON
Dunkirk: The Patriotic Myth by Nicholas Harmon. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1980. 271 pp. with appendices

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

26,500 men not significant? Really?

The job of the small boats was mainly to go close inshore and pick up men from the beaches and ferry them to the larger vessels who could not get close inshore. So who does that count as a rescue for?

I wouldn't put much credence on the work quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM

Well... he is not the first and only sourse to uncover the order to bayonet the French or the firing on French soldiers... If the intention was not to try and sneak away from the fighting leaving the French to face the German guns, and the call for small boats went out days sooner, then the number of French captured would have been less significant, eh? Ah well... sin e doigh (Ce la vie)
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 04:24 AM

"a written order was issued commanding that French troops be embarked in equal numbers with the British. In practice this was not carried out."

Well the figures supplied by Keith A of Hertford show that they were not too shy of the mark

198,229 British Troops rescued along with 139,997 French and other nationals, and I do not suppose that circumstances in Dukirk and along the evacuation beaches were such that immaculate firness and order could prevail in the midst of bombing attacks and straffing runs by German aircraft. I would also tend to think that for the average French squaddie inside that perimeter that he would be most concerned with getting home to look after family and loved ones as opposed to escaping to England to continue the fight.

Les from Hull also makes a good point regarding the inshore ferrying operations from beach to the larger vessels lying offshore, they would be noted as having been rescued by the larger ship, it was after all a rescue mission not a competition. The smaller boats would only be "credited" with the soldiers brought back on the final trips, after all no point in them returning empty.

The book you refer us to InOBU would appear to be biased in outlook and very poorly researched. Probably written with controversy in mind to cynically create a publicity bubble to promote sales.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM

France was already defeated.
It was lost.
The British would either be captured, or escape to CONTINUE the fight.
The British army did escape and then, with the Commonwealth fought on alone for the next two years.

When boats were in danger of being overloaded force might have been used against any nationality of soldier to keep order.
As many French and others as possible were taken off to continue the fight from Britain.

It is true that Britain later attacked and the French fleet, killing many French sailors, to stop the Germans getting the ships.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 10:43 AM

Please keep to the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

"Please keep to the subject."

Surely you jest!

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:00 PM

InOBU

Funny you should mention Dunkirk. My uncle was there. He signed up to fight Nazi Germany so that American Quakers like you would have the freedom to take the piss out of him. No need to thank him. He's not around any more.

Now fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM

And by the way, after the war he served for another 20 years in the Irish Army (Including seeing action in the Congo and Cyprus). He was buried with military honours at the Curragh in 1985. Irishmen who volunteered to fight fascism (and they were all volunteers) did a lot more for Irish freedom than any amount of smart-arse yanks.

Like I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

Hi Chris:

Always a pleasure to hear from you. I have nothing but respect for the soldiers of WWII... however a few misplaced facts. We Quakers were fighting fascism decades earlier than the governments of the world. We, for example, were involved in a massive food program to Germany during the famine between the wars, for which, the German people would not let the nazis put us in camps with the rest of the utopian religionists who faced untold horrors, ignored by the rest of the worl.
As a result, at great risk, Quakers remained in Germany through out, un-armed and rescuing Jews and others targeted by the nazi horror. Britain and the US did nothing to help the victims of nazism, until camps were over-run in the course of the war, not even bombing the rail lines leading into the camps, when asked to do so by Jews who escaped those camps, bringing evidence to Britain and the US.
No, it was not the brave soldiers, like your dad, but the government policies which were self serving and had no thought to bring about a just world, but rather claimed it was a fight to save the victems of nazism, just as WWI was claimed to be a war for the rights of small nations... as Britain bombarded Ireland from the deck guns of the Helga (if memories served).
The time to end war, is not after hostilities begin, but before they start, just as when the US sent food into Somalia and was shocked to be shot at by guns we had been pouring into that nation for years. We were shocked at the rise of nazism, while at the same time branding the Abraham Lincoln brigade members and Quakers as pre-mature anti-fascists.
And, by the way, yes Ireland sent her children to Spain, on both sides. The Replicans sent troups to the 15 Int. brigade to fight along side of the US reds, while Fin na Gael sent the blue shirts to fight with Franco and Hitler (remember the Swastika cleaner lorries in Dublin in the seventies???)
Our war against fascism began in the 1620s. We Quakers did not support the American war of "independance" - which was in fact a war against Pitt's attempts to stop importation of slaves by cracking down on smuggling booze (the sugar tax, tea was thrown into the harbour as sugar was too valuble...) We fought against fascism by putting our lives on the line helping Black folks steal themselves out of slavery. We fought against fascism by sending food to the North Vietnamese while 45,000 young Americans died in a meaningless war.
So, again, it is not your father who I have little reguard for, it is the sociopaths who lead us into war for their own profit again and again, and we go puppies because a major industrial power can get it together to get their citizens out of a crumbling third whorld power - in a region devistated by the wars which start with the CIA and BP.
Discussions like this are much better had over a pint or two, no offence meant. It is just that I have seen war up close and it is a sickness which we best be rid of. And yet, we keep attempting to end wars with war, and keep expecting a different outcome ( one discription of mental illness.)
All the best
NO PASSARAN!
Is mise, le meas, a mhic, Slan agus beannact
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

I expect you are glad that Britain and commonwealth stood against Hitler alone, right Lorcan?

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM

"If the intention was not to try and sneak away from the fighting leaving the French to face the German guns, and the call for small boats went out days sooner, then the number of French captured would have been less significant, eh? Ah well... sin e doigh (Ce la vie)"

That is a wicked smear against Chris' uncle and his comrades.
They were where they were mainly because their allies on their flanks had collapsed.
They were surrounded and cut off.
Escape or capture were the only possibilites.
The brave men who were left as rearguard on the perimeter had no hope at all.
They were required to sacrifice themselves.
The escape meant that the war could continue and ultimately led to the destruction Nazism
A good result?

Subject: RE: BS: Well done the RAF & Navy
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

"Britain and the US did nothing to help the victims of nazism"

Now that is about as crass a statement as I have ever heard or read considering the times and the suffering endured. Britain along with her allies were instrumental in stopping and crushing "nazism". The Quakers may have helped those persecuted by the Nazi regime in Germany but they did nothing to stop it, kind and well intentioned as they may have been when confronted with rel evil they were totally ineffective