BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?

Subject: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:59 AM

I'll be marching with neighbors this Sunday for immigration rights and to oppose the efforts of the xenophobe racists (they demonstrated against immigrants yesterday at the State Capitol, and drew 50 people to the hate mongering march) to criminalize immigrants.

Anyone else joining the marches in their local communities?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:26 AM

Check out this very touching piece. I cried.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5325714

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:35 AM

Illegal immigrants are the criminals, pal.

What part of that needs to be explained to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:43 AM

Sure, let's swiftly deport 11 mil people and watch the effect on our economy. Did you listen to the piece, Martin? Have you any idea how essential to the economy these people are and how difficult it would be to do without them? Many tasks would go undone, and many more would cost a whole lot more, probly more than you are willing to pay.

The issue is not nearly as simple as "they are all criminals, pal." It is complex and nuanced, and not easily lent to simple solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:52 AM

So hire someone else to work at McDonald's, the car wash, and as landscapers.

People who talk English and give a damn about this country and spend their money here instead of sending it to their people back home.

What you are saying "how difficult it would be to do without them" is got to be what they said in the south in 1865 and in Egypt during the time of Moses.

Get lazy Americans off welfare and kick out these ILLEGAL immigrants who contribute nothing to the culture.

Let them become real citizens and don't let anymore in. If they won't become citizens, ask them politely to leave. If they still won't leave, they do not belong here.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:13 PM

Your absolutely right in what you say Martin.

Here in Scotland we see thousands of Eastern Europeans arrive daily. I live in Aberdeen and there are welfare groups being set up for them, you can't get near a denist or doctor due to the creatation of long waiting lists because of them.

Locals can no longer get housing due to them obtaining everything available. And the local newspaper which reports court cases shows the rise in serious crime with surnames you know aren't local. Police say knive culture among them are the order of the day.

The welfare state has made it such that locals enjoy a nice standard of living, laughing that you get much more telling lies to your doctor and a nice fat sickness cheque than having to get out of bed and do a days work.

Benefit fraud in Scotland is higher than anywhere else in the UK.
Why ? Because you can get off with it as the government see the Eastern Europeans filling the jobs and business not making any noises about it.

There has to be either curbs put on these people entering and ruining our country or set up sites next door to the likes of the do gooders we see here sprouting off about something they know nothing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Thanks, Guest.

Bleeding hearts for these "downtrodden" bottom feeders at the expense of losing your country's culture is not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

This is a tough situation. Being in Canada, I can't imagine dealing with a multitude of illegals. Maybe the States will have to loosen up their immigration policy and make it a little easier for these people to enter legally.

Lets face it, when it comes to labour, maybe the employers will have to provide decent wages to attract workers who are legal. Who's really going to suffer if you can no longer hire housekeepers and fruitpickers?

I remember being at Disneyland and discovering that the hotel's cleaners were being picked up and returned to Mexico daily. I also remember money and jewelry being stolen. Of course, by the time I discovered it, the jewels were probably on their way to Mexico. Reporting it to the police was a joke.

Although I was angry and disappointed, I didn't really blame the impoverished person who stole from me. It must have been so tempting to steal from someone who seemed to have so much.

I think that it is the upper classes who benefit by hiring illegals and the middle and lower classes that suffer.

Loosen up your immigration laws. Allow them to enter the country legally and then you don't have to worry so much about your social security checks in the future.

Sometimes I wonder if Bush is doing this so he can hammer Canada about border security. At this point, it seems pretty silly to clamp down on the northern borders when the southern borders are so porous. All this talk about Canada being a haven for terrorists when there is a steady flow of illegals from Mexico is nothing but harrassment. How about being accountable for your own problems?

I actually think this might be a good move. More Americans will now have to clean their own toilets.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: number 6
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:02 PM

Illigal immigrants are a serious issue in the U.S. ... sure they provide cheap labour ... and don't reply with 'they do the jobs Americans won't do' .. Americans would work these jobs if they were paid decent wages and received health benefits. I find it odd, were these marches are making an impact in the media and the social conscience .. I guess this issue is more important than the war in Iraq. But I have to give these non-citizens credit for having a 'passion' and a drive to display there concerns.

Being a Canadian I will in January have to have a passport to cross the border to go and shop in Calais Maine. I could cross the St. Croix river in my canoe and enter the U.S. illegally stay and then get amnesty.

Oh yeah, why do I shop in Calais Maine ... because there is a certain store that still sells good quality 'made in U.S.' garden tools and such .. at rock bottom prices ... I could get these tools here at the Walmart, or Home Depot but they are junk made offshore in the Orient sold at a higher prices.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:13 PM

It is a screwed up situation to put it mildly. Our Immigration laws make it next to impossible for people to immigrate supposedly because we are protecting ourselves from uneducated, disease ridden, criminally minded riff raff. So we turn a blind eye to our borders and now think in terms of legalizing the illegal while penalizing the law abiding who chose to go through the proper channels to get in and failed.
At the same time, there are those who came in illegally, have established themselves in busimesses, seen to it that their children are educated. They are an asset. And as I understand it, their children are American citizens.
It seems to me that instead of spending time and money trying to arrest and deport non-criminal illegals, we should be using those same dollars to stem the flow of illegal immigrants who, by the way. may be terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: number 6
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:32 PM

Exactly Sinsull ... it's an open gate for whomever can get in ... it's an open gate not only to criminal types but also for profiteers of the people smugglers, the undeground slave trade, and drug smugglers.

Illegal immigration is also an insult to the people whom immigrate via the proper channels.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:42 PM

That's right, bleeding hearts. Like George W Bush and the Wall St Journal.

Send'em all back. The economy will be fine.

What are you (still) smoking?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:44 PM

I will not join such a march, as they are largely ill-conceived attempts to bully and to lobby for 'rights' which are not obviously resonable in many areas.

This is different from the civil rights marches of the 60s which I did participate in ...to call attention to unfair treatment of an ethnic group who did not ask to be here, but whose 'immigration' was forced.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:28 PM

From above... "Being in Canada, I can't imagine dealing with a multitude of illegals." Where the fuck have you been? Quebec wanted to separate back in the 1970's based, in large part, on the immigration bullshit by the federal government. The same crap goes on today. Recall the lad (Citizen Court Judge) in St. John's, NF, that blew his brains out over the immigration scandal just a few years ago?

I am not going to get into this discussion too heavily because of the racist overtones and all of the rest of the bullshit that comes with it, but, I'll just ask this... you wanna share your lunch with a bunch of criminals from other countries? Okay, you go to their country and leave my Canada alone. You have no idea of the shit that goes on. And, you have no idea of the shit to come.

Like I said, I ain't gettin into this, except to say that the bleeding hearts had better wake up and see the world for what it is. And pray that those with brains and balls save them from harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Original Guest
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:33 PM

Just back from the march, and it was grand!

I actually work with and live among some of the largest immigrant groups in the state of Minnesota. The vast majority of them are legal, NOT illegal immigrants.

Immigration problems are complex, but the problem truly isn't the people coming here. The majority of illegal immigrants are criminals, they are here looking for jobs.

Two main problems are: the need for a complete overhaul of the immigration bureaucracy, and the need to criminalize (with substantial penalties, ie serious jail time) the business owners who profit from the exploitation of millions of undocumented workers.

We need these workers, as all developed countries do. What we don't need are the criminal elements (drug, exotic animal, endangered species, people and weapons traffickers and smugglers especially) who ALSO benefit from illegal undocumented workers being in the country, providing a convenient cover for them to use to engage in far more dangerous and illicit trade.

We need the undocumented workers, and we need our government to overhaul the byzantine and antiquated bureaucracy that will allow them to be here legally with their families, while we keep track of their whereabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:42 PM

Bring them all in and feed them and let them phone their grannies. Too much soft soap especially here in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:48 PM

Close and protect American borders NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Original Guest
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:06 PM

Ooops! My bad. My sentence in the post above should have read:

"The majority of illegal immigrants are NOT criminals, they are here looking for jobs."

So, yesterday was the "big rally" here at the MN State Capitol for the Martin Gibsons of the world. "Almost" 50 people showed up, carrying hate filled, racist signs.

Of today's pro-immigration rights rally, the media simply said:

"Many more marchers than police expected showed up for today's rally at the State Capitol...tens of thousands of people from every Minnesota community were represented...more actions are expected tomorrow..."

This is an honest to god working class movement, and they are MOVING!

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:11 PM

Mexico is invading. Would the last person to leave Texas alive please bring the flag? The borders are falling and the New World Order is upon us. 150,000 Americans strong and counting, defending the border, for Al Queda and Drug Trafficing while the Anti-christ loving U.S. President, George W. justs sit around watches it come down on schedule. Bankrupting our country, destroying the middle class, and ushering in the New Worker Order.


Race issues will be the least of our problems.

Be looking to Florida too as it doesn't just end in Mexico.

Any person that can simplify this issue down to merely racism is and idiot and a moron!

Be Thinking Global Eletist, Multi-national Corporations, International banking, Secret Societies and anything else that points the way to WW3, with names of like Rothchild, Rockefeller Bildeberg etc. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

Original, Guest, no one was there because it is a waste of time.

You are a lousy American,Original guest.

Guest, Dewey is obviosly high and a paranoid old hippie not making much money and not having much of a life.

A typical Mudcat radical liberal, sometimes even more frightening in this country then a radical Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Janie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:29 PM

I can't think of any issue that is more complex than this one. It seems to me that illegal aliens have Human Rights, but are not intitled to all the rights, privileges and legal protections of a citizen or a legal alien. On a societal level, I would like to see the number of aliens here illegally (or who can get here illegally)reduced by significant numbers. When I consider the lives of individuals, meeting basic needs, keeping a family together, then I realize I want an exception for each person or family that I know who are in that situation.

However, my understanding is that it is extremely rare for action to be taken against employers for hiring undocumented workers. If our own economic system and employers were held accountable, there wouldn't be such a big labor market for undocumented workers, and the USA wouldn't be as powerful a magnet. If illegal aliens are to be deemed felons, then those who hire them should also be deemed felons.

It occurs to me that the most effective way to deal with this issue is for the USA to do everything in its power to help the 3rd world nations to our south become 1st world nations. That would also be a tremendous benefit to our domestic labor force. There wouldn't be benefit in sending jobs overseas or south of the border if workers in those countries were paid decent wages and worked in decent, safe conditions.

Once a I had a neighbor whose husband worked on a local tobacco farm. He was from Mexico. She was born and raised in Texas in a hispanic community. She was 38 years old and spoke virtually no English. I have to admit I found that very irksome.

Yeh. Illegal immigration. Definitely a complex, conflicted, vexing issue. No black and white to it. It seems to all be shades of gray.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:34 PM

Breaking the law is not a gray issue, Janie. You either break the law or live within the law.

If you break the law, it has to be enforced. If the laws are no good, change them. You don't almost break the law. You either do or you don't.

Illegal immigrants break the law and are subject to the penalties of the laws that are broken.

And we should take care of our own in need here first before helping someone else out. Why are we obligated to help them? We are helping Iraq and you see how many here have a problem with that. Just asking how you can help one and not help another.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:44 PM

You're right that it's complex, Janie. On the subject of people who speak only Spanish in the southwestern US, that problem is made even more complex by the fact that there are families who have lived right where they are in places like Texas and New Mexico for hundreds of years, and have only spoken Spanish. In their cases, they weren't the ones who moved, it was the borders between the US and Mexico that moved.

I have a friend whose family has lived in New Mexico for more than four hundred years, and some of them have never learned to speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Janie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:57 PM

I don't think we are helping Iraq. But that is another topic for another thread.

I don't disagree that illegal immigrants are breaking the law. But so are the employers who hire them. Putative action against undocumented workers will not stop the problem as long as there are jobs here for them and a standard of living that far exceeds what is possible in their own countries. The issue is clearly one regarding hispanics from Mexico and Central America, and their proximity to the USA. We share a much longer border with Canada, but because the USA and Canada enjoy comparable standards of living, neither place is flooded by illegal immigrants from across the border.

I am interested in policies that work and that are consistent with this country's purported values around care, compassion and human rights. Until living conditions substantially improve in Mexico and Central America, and unless work opportunites in the USA substantially decrease, the flood can not be stopped or even significantly slowed.

A well designed foreign economic policy that bolsters the economies and infrastructure of the countries to our south is strongly in our national interest.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: number 6
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:02 PM

The goverment of Mexico should take a lot more responibility on improving the human conditions in their own country.

six

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: pdq
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:03 PM

"Putative action against undocumented workers will not stop the problem..."

Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Janie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:10 PM

I don't disagree, sIx.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:21 PM

But Mexico won't.

I have an idea. Let's get Americans to demonstrate in Mexico to stay the hell out of America. Think they will let us?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: number 6
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:27 PM

No way ... American protesters in Mexico would be immediately apprehended by one of the many police force divisions they have ... then they would be put into a cesspool of a prison indefinately, or at least until some family member or whatever bribes some government official for their freedom.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:29 PM

well, then Mexico is fucked up. but we all know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:46 PM

Martin, Glad I scare you. You are not very important. Sorry to have to inform you of this.

The jobs aren't that great in America and the economy is weak here already. That is a fact, and has nothing to do with being paranoid. Also the U.S. popluation is about to triple in the next five years, and influx of the Mexican workforce into the economy will be by Global necessity, not by desired economic feasiblity.


Heck yeah, I believe the New World Order conspiracy, as most of it makes sense when you think and actually examine it. Both the world and this country in particuliar are not operating the same way they did economically and politically, and nobody cares or represent the important issues anymore, like national security, global terrorism, the border etc. Congressman, if they are Amrican SHOULD be outraged, yet they look the other way. It really makes you wonder why they choose to ingore the electorate and seem to work against the best interests and soveiegnty on their own country, for global issues instead of thier own nation.

hopeless indebtness to various foreign governments and international banks, everything's going down the toilet. I'm not paranoid, its just what going on. And it points to the very things that everyone has been laughing at and pooh poohing for years. At least a third of the U.S. Congress belong to Secret societies, these same people vote every year for global issues that are against their very own country, Why do they continuely do this, if they respresnet us?





Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:56 PM

Dewey, you don't scare me in the slightest because you are insignificant and have zero impact on me or much of anything.

I also firmly believe that you have no crystal ball, powers to predict the future, know anybody in Washington personally, or have any proof whatsoever of secret societies. I don't either, but I am just not going to worry about it, because as I said, I am not at all scared of your doomsday pipe dreams and old hippie political viewpoints.

I am still making a decent living, paying my taxes, watching my kids excell in school, and enjoying life. and I am not worried about retirement either, because I made some good decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:35 AM

There are illegal immigrants in Canada. Some have been here for 10 years or more and do speak English and have jobs and Canadian kids, and Canadian spouses who can't afford to sponsor them legally because they make just enough for bills and/or don't understand the legal immigration process, or can't afford to take time off work to get the papers done.

If it was easier for employers to sponsor immigrants on work permits then maybe these people wouldn't be illegal.

Illegal immigration happens when the businesses hire illegal immigrants due to not wanting to pay them as much or not wanting to bother proving to the government that there's a valid reason they didn't hire a Canadian for the job.

It also happens when spouses are denied citizenship even though they already have children here. Permanent residency and the ability to work legally should be a result of marriage, with only a small filing fee and instant processing (if the person's a criminal it would be easy to apprehend them after that - easier than it is now when the criminals are just invisible along with everyone else in the underground economy). Actual citizenship should be a bit harder, but not nearly as difficult as it is now.

If it wasn't necessary for families to stay together illegally in order to stay together, and if businesses had an easier time hiring foreign workers, it'd be only legal immigration happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:53 AM

gnu - I meant it when I said, "Being in Canada, I can't imagine dealing with a multitude of illegals." I wouldn't know about the situation in Quebec or in Newfoundland. Maybe I should know, but I don't. I have been on the west coast, not the east coast. Thats where I've been.

On the west coast, we have alot of immigration but the bulk of it is legal. Every once in awhile, a situation will surface but all in all it seems under control.

The problems at the Canadian border do not compare to the U.S./Mexican border, even though our border is much longer. Which begs the question, why do Canadians have to go through so much heavy regulation at the border when Mexicans cross into the U.S. everyday in large numbers?

hesperis - Yes, marriage should entitle the spouse to Canadian citizenship and if I'm not mistaken, we still have the family unification program which includes grand-parents (as long as they can cover their own medical expenses). I have a nephew that just married a woman from Germany. She won't be arriving permanently until November, but she will be arriving legally.

As a Canadian citizen who first entered this country as a legal, landed immigrant, I don't think its too much to ask for others to do the paper work. I know there are exceptions but really, its not that hard.

The U.S. has to change its immigration policy. If children are born in the U.S. to Mexican parents, the parents should be given the opportunity to become U.S. citizens to keep the family together. If Mexicans are married to U.S. citizens, they should be able to stay. If they have a criminal record, they should go back. If they have no family in the U.S. they should go back and enter legally but with a special priority. Seasonal workers should be given work visas. Domestic help needs to be regulated by visas too.

All countries need to provide more adequately for domestic workers. Nanny's, cooks and housekeepers are often exploited. As are the seasonal farm labourers. I am more concerned about the living and working conditions of these workers than I am about what returning them or not returning them.

Whats wrong with your immigration system anyway? Why can't you keep that little bit of border secure. Sheesh.......and your worried about the Canadian border. Get your priorities straight and look at your own immigration policies and your southern border before you start criticizing Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:52 AM

MG: I believe in predictions of the future. the Art Bell Show makes predictions every year. This year there was a universal consciousness among everyone that there would be massive group fighting over the Mexican Border. It was made on New Year Eve, and we are seeing it unfold as we speak.

They also predicted a pandemic in Florida. I think it will happen in Mexico and force people to seek help in the U.S.A. Let's see if it comes true! I'm thinking it will. it just a general gut.

If it doesn't work out so, its because consicousness is under the control and direction of each person, individually as well as collectively and polarities shift change as doing daily events which effect these polarities. This effects consicousnesss at a higher level as we are all part of this grid. (of course you will just say B.S. you can't prove)

Faith to me is collective evidence of things unseen not that which IS seen. You are the realist and smug doubting Thomas.

You must be pyschic some yourself however, because you are right reguarding my finances. I am totally broke trying to catch up from many years of chasing my tail.

I am good with money however, but I still don't have much to be good with as far as investments, as I still do not earn much as you have so gleefully and correctly informed everyone. I'm not ashamed of being poor, so if you still want to rake me over the coals, what harm can it do, No one knows me and it is only cyberspace after all!

I like most of your posts, your methods don't bother me, though they still represent the hecklings of a hyper-critical jerk.


However, ironically, I was about to amen everything you had previously said. And then you go to calling me a hippie and liberal. Ironically, I am actual conservative much like you. So I don't understand why you have act like a jerk, to show your witt. it really doesn't have much of an effect on anyone but the emitter.

You are insignificant to mudcat when you do this..... that was my point! And your still O.K. politically in my book. you have your reasons for coming to mudcat, and they are a bit differnt than mine.

I come to vent or express myself, you come to entertain yourself through rabble-rousing.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,G.I. Joe
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:05 AM

I want to know who is behind all this and who is organizing it.
All these marches hapening all over the US on the same day are not by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:35 AM

"Breaking the law is not a gray issue, Janie. You either break the law or live within the law."

The United States came into existence because some people decided it was time to break the law. Laws are made by people. Laws are changed by people. The more laws that we have, the more criminals it will produce.

These people ARE looking for a chance to become citizens, just like ALL of our ancestors had the opportunity. They are not looking for a free handout. The rumor that most of these immigrants are "criminals" is largely false. An illegal immigrant does not want to draw attention to themselves by creating crimes and end up being deported. This is probably a greater deterrent than any death penalty. They are here looking for work, honest work.

Look at the Irish, probably the largest block of citizens in this country. If we closed the doors during the famine, what would have happened? Where would any of us be?

The protests are not to demand automatic entry into the United States, but rather to insure that the rights that this country was built on are honored. They aren't looking for a handout, they are looking for an opportunity.

While people complain that providing benefits would cripple our economy, they fail to consider that if these illegal immigrants were given "guest worker" status they would pay taxes and benefits. Working conditions would be safer. They also buy goods and services and contribute to the strength of the economy.

It is not an easy issue. It is about civil rights and honoring the credos of our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:49 AM

Last night, CNN re-ran a program from 2 years ago with a number of stories of just how complex and polarizing this issue is.

The stories of good, honest people desperate to find a better life, mixed with stories of OTHER good, honest people worried about the increase of crime and tax burden in their communities.

They focused on Georgia, where communities that 10 years ago had almost no Hispanics, now have entire areas and are using 10-20% of the school budget (as US law says that kids MUST be allowed to go to school, no matter what their parents status).

Janie has it right...there are so many gray areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

In our Emergency room I look over and see an immigrant couple who have been waiting for treatment. They say they have been waiting 8 hours. Since I have insurence I wait only 20 minutes.
Immigrants go to the back of the line in jobs and services.
Business loves to avoid paying payroll taxes on illegal workers and illegal workers love not paying taxes or SS.

Its not so grey as you think. Its fairly black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:40 AM

Ron ... Laws aren't there just so they can be broken ... Immigration laws at this time in history need to be adhered to more than ever .. times have changed since the Irish immigration wave ... it's a smaller world, a more dangerous world than it was back then, even back then they had to pass through points of entry to get into the country. It just wasn't a free for all, drop them off on the coast somewhere. Giving amnesty to the 20 million illegal immigrants now residing in the U.S. will intice more swarms of illegals across the border. The bad guys (whatever their evil occupation) already are taking advantage of this and will even more if amnesty is granted, and believe me these guys are bad since the money is lucrative in drugs, prostitution, slavery, people smuggling and last but not least terrorists. The burden of the illegals is too much for the U.S. social system to handle and the victim of this are U.S. citizens, those born in the U.S. or those who went through proper procedures.

Also, what flag are these people in the marches waving? I'm not a flag waving kind of guy but I think it would be more appropriate to wave an American flag, this would represent the syncerity of belief in the 'good' that the U.S. has to offer these people .. a standard that they want to follow, a standard they don't have in their mother country, a standard that's makes to leave. Also disturbing are the ever growing movements to annexe the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico back with Mexico.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM

I haven't read this whole thread, but on the general topic I think the answers can be found by looking at two basic predicates.

First, there is no question that the borders need to be secured in some way. They are porous, and they always have been. This isn't just true now, it has always been the case. We have every right to expect that others honor our laws with regard to immigration. Securing our borders is not a bad thing, it is the proper thing to do.

Second, it is useless to hold decent folks that are desperate to do well by their families accountable for the fact that it is WE that failed to secure the borders. As citizens of the United States, we created a vision of a land where opportunity was there for all who were willing to embrace hard work. (While this isn't so, IMHO, it is the vision we have presented to the world.) It is easy to sit in the here and now and make pronouncements about lawbreakers and not rewarding them with citizenship. The facts are that this is not a new phenomenon. I wonder how many red blooded, flag waving, self righteous, Americans, if they knew their own background, would discover that an ancestor came over illegally. A great many I would venture. These people came here for the classic reasons that people have come to this country for 150 years. They came because they sought a better life for their children. They came because of opportunity. They have been productive, and they pay taxes. To act as if they are something new that we have to deal with is dishonest.

The plans that I see out there contain what I consider to be the essential elements. They expect folks to embrace the language, pay a fine for having come illegally, wait and demonstrate their desire to be full citizens. I can live with all of that. They expect folks to admit their status, and allow them to do so without fear of being deported. I can live with that. It all boils down to stating that one has a desire to become a US citizen for all that implies and mandates.

With regard to the issue of driving down wages, let me tell you that as a Union Organizer, I will take care of that end. This will actually aid me. Typically if a workforce contains illegal immigrants, I will have a very difficult time organizing them. They are afraid that if they sign a card, they, and their families, will be deported. They become targets for unscrupulous business owners, such as the cleaning service Walmart used, and for exploitation. Once we are on the track and legal, it will become easier to organize them and improve wages and conditions.

I will end in the same way I began. This all is predicated on securing the borders. Until that is done, folks looking to improve their lives will continue to sneak across.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:04 PM

A hint as to "may be behind this" could later be found at the march in Washington, D.C. when Ted Kennedy speaks to the gathered mass.

Votes?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:28 PM

I have to say, as someone who has been through the process of helping my immigrant husband get his documentation, I don't know what the answers are. It took us several years, several thousand dollars, and a lot of hassle (plus asking for assistance from a politician with whom we had a small connection) just to get him his permanent resident status.

I think the most important thing we need to do is get the bureaucracy working more efficiently. Especially since the INS was absorbed into the Department of Homeland Security. The whole bureaucracy is a total mess. And another problem is the way it's structured. It's divided into little fifedoms, each of which, although they are supposed to all be operating under the same rules, has its own set of rules that differ from the ones outlined on the INS (now called U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services [USCIS]) website.

The only people who really benefit from the system the way it's structured right now are the immigration attorneys.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM

Dewey, do you live in the U.S.? Where does YOUR information stem from with regard "to the jobs are poor, bad economy.......?"

To the contrary, jobs for college graduates are at an all time high with regard to availibility and starting wages. Start wages of $80,000 are not uncommon. (of course, there is that thing about obtaining an education) And naturally there are the comments regarding having 2 or 3 jobs. That always happens. I remember when WJC said "jobs are plentiful" and some answering "yeah, I know, i have 3 of them" referring to low wage jobs. It is all about education and with a dropout rate of close to 50% in the inner cities and no will to work, the non-citizen will continue to come here to fill the lower paying jobs, as well as a lot of th better paying jobs
There are jobs in the $12-$15 range that are not being taken by eligible citizens. The dole from the Government is too easy.

Has anyone thought about the fact of the Mexicans paying for their housing and living expenses, unlike the welfare people? Granted, some of the strain is on medical facilities as they can't obtain insurance due to citizenship. Whoever said they don't pay income taxes and Social Security has not a clue. Most do have jobs that require them to pay these. They use a fictictious SS number which guarantees them they will never have the advantage of that fund.

Think about it, people! Do you think the Wendy's, professional landscape companies, respected building trades, etc., are hiring them without paying the required taxes. Not a chance!

I rented to them for a number of years where the 8 unit building was filled with Mexicans with either a visa or a green card. They work 10-12 hours a day, are frugal, they do send money back to Mexico and also save to buy homes. All in this particular 8 unit building now are American born citizens who don't exhibit the same tendancies to get ahead. The Mexicans have all purchased homes.

No marching for me however, they are not legally in this country. What we do need to do is change the archaic immigration laws. This has been going on for many years (not the fault of GWB) and our illustrious Congress has been ignoring it like they do most other important things.

As far as low paying jobs, migrant workers have been coming here to harvest for many years. Their attempts at immigrating legally have been thwarted. Too much red tape, 10 years to wait is not unexpected. By the way, the estimate of Mexicans doing the farm stuff is estimated at 3% of the total population of legal/illegals.

Back to the renting, I will not rent to those on any form of Governmnt welfare, and yes, there are many ways around it. I was a semi-nonpaid job provider until a years ago. A male resident, age about 34 who was living with an older women with their only income a monthly government check, very healthy and strong, was offered a job starting at $13 per hour with benefits. He kept arguing that he could not read or write. The person who was going to give him a daily ride to the job site, fill out the man's time card, deliver him back to his door step every day, could not convince him. I tried and tried and finally lost my patience. This guy could do backflips (after several beers) and just watched TV all day. When I did lose my patience, it was to call him some rather unfriendly names which led to my not providing the job finding service any longer.

By the way, the gentleman who first tried to get the guy to take the job was a supervisor at an irrigation company.
Oh yes, one other thing, he was a greencard Mexican worhing on his citizenship.

I know this is mainly antecdotal but find that it is the overall broad example of what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:53 PM

"Do you think the Wendy's, professional landscape companies, respected building trades, etc., are hiring them without paying the required taxes. Not a chance!"

While I do agree with the great post you just had, I think it should be pointed out that there is a segment of the immigrant population who work as day laborers who get paid under the table. These are the individuals who are taken advantage of, sometimes finding themselves without pay at the end of the day, injuries on the job without any coverage at all, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

Ron Olesko said "It is about civil rights and honoring the credo of our country."

AMEN! WHich is why I became somewhat emotional in my post and ended up with some characters left out and some phrasing problems.

I could not agree more on the problem with day laborers in the Mexican population.. As I am sure you know, we have some natural born citizens in the same situation. Neither is good.

My point is that we are basically 'screwing' the majority of the illegal Mexican workers who are paying all taxes but not receiving benefits from them. You will find as many American borns at hospital emergency room as you will Spainish speaking persons. In my limited experience, they have always been fewer Spainsih speaking.

Everyone should become a citizen, no doubt. I look upon most as not illegal but denied.

Ever wonder if a couple of Congressional wags had some research done which showed an astonomical amount of dollars being paid into social security which would never have to be paid back to the contributors? (non-citizen Mexicans) A convient source of funds which could be used to pay back political contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,Original Guest
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 08:14 PM

CarolC, you hit the nail on the head exactly. As I said above, the issues are extremely complex. The bureaucracy for LEGAL immigrants is a huge nightmare. So when it comes to the bureaucracy created when we decided to further criminalize undocumented workers by making them felons, it only exacerbates an already pathetic situation.

People should take note of what the immigrant rights demos are about and asking for: IMMIGRATION REFORM! They just aren't making these draconian "secure the borders" bullshit arguments the right wing nuts are arguing for. Build another Great Wall? I don't fucking think so.

The only way to secure the borders of the US is to streamline the bureaucracy, criminalize those who exploit undocumented workers (rather than creating a HUGE nightmare by creating yet another layer of legal bureaucracy by further criminalizing undocumented workers to felons).

The legal wing of the immigration bureaucracy isn't even functioning! Is everybody ready to start paying A WHOLE LOT MORE TAXES to pay for this "secure the borders" delusion the Republicans are trying to sell us? Because the securing the borders part WILL bankrupt us as a nation, both morally and economically.

I too have family--a Russian sister-in-law and nephew--who we struggled to get into the country (mom & son were separated for over two years), spent a fortune on lawyers, etc. What is criminal is the bureaucracy that does this to families, that requires that only wealthy people be able to afford to legally immigrate to this country. But no one wants to talk about those issues either. Do we only allow people to immigrate here if they can buy their way in?

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:23 AM

CarolC and Original Guest - outstanding!!!

Great to hear from people who have been directly involved.

I went out last night and talked with several Hispanics. Green cards, temporary visas and two whose visa's are expired. Yes, a couple men without but I could not tell the diference by simply looking.

I guess I lost my sense of direction with regard to the hardships involved with becoming citizens. They don't want to be semi-citizens or temporary citizens. They just want to become Americans in order to be a full fledged part of this country. I was seeing what they were going thru with regard to to their physical attempts and failed to see the emotional turmoil involved with waiting, waiting, waiting.

Yes, I said no marching for me, because it involves a lot of illeagal people. When some soul searching and info from those who have been involved, it is not their fault. As Ron said regarding our Credo, we are preventing that from happening. Now, it has been turned into a political game and I can't tell whose is winning. It is easy to tell who is not. I think I will at least be on the sidelines of the next 'march' near' me. If for no other reason that to help replace any Mexican flags with US flags. That was an emotional mistake on the part of some but maybe I now sense some of the frustration felt by these people.

Our government is bogged down in all respects, not just the immigration phase. Hopefully this might illustrate just where we are and other reforms will take place. I am not going to hold my breath, however. I love this country but it could be so much more to so many.
How to accomplish that is more than I can fathom at this stage of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:59 AM

Actually, why not have the flags of the many countries flying at the marches alongside the US flag? That right wing reaction against the Mexican flags is bogus. There is no reason why a person need give up their ethnic identity to become a US citizen. One of the great strengths of this nation is it's diversity.

Or shall we ban the flying of the Irish tricolor too (which were out in great abundance at the St Paul march, right alongside the Mexican flag).

This flag litmus test is just bogus. As were the xenophobic signs being carried by the anti-immigrant gathering of 50 or so people here on Saturday, claiming "English" to be "American". As if.

Subject: RE: BS: Joining the Immigration Rights Marches?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:23 AM

This is not about "ethnic identity". That will be maintained as it always has.

This is about becoming a citizen of a Country whose flag represents it. The French have their flag as do the Irish, Great Britain, Canada, Italy, ad infinitum.