Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

"Sieffe"'s text is pretty much the standard song-book one, with the first line altered by somebody (probably recently). I'd guess that the tune, too, is the usual one; but she didn't say.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:57 PM

If I understand the late Bruce Olson correctly, he seems to say the song originated in a parody later given shape by the celebrated singer-songwriter Dibdin. Judging by the scansion, it may not have used the tune we're familiar with (the later verses can be fitted to the tune only with difficulty). I quote from Olson's collection at erols.com:

"About 1600 a ballad came out on 'The Noble Acts, newly found, of Arthur of the Table Round,' commencing, 'When Arthur first in court began, and was approved King.' This was parodied in the 17th century. A 17th & 18th century version goes:

When Arthur first in court began
To wear long hanging sleeves,
He entertained three serving men,
And all of them were thieves.

The first he was an Irishman,
The second he was a Scot,
The third he was a Welshman,
And all were knaves, God wot.

The Irishman loved usquebaugh,   [whiskey]
The Scot love ale called blue-cap,
The Welshman loved toasted cheese,
And made his mouth like a mouse-trap.

Usquebaugh burnt the Irishman's throat,
The Scot was drowned in ale,
The Welshman had like to be choked by a mouse,
But he pulled it out by the tail.

But a version printed in 1781 commences 'In days when good King Stephen reigned.' Somewhat later we find in 'THe Universal Songster, III, p. 430, 1828 (attributed to T. Dibdin):

A Parody Glee Air: When Arthur First in Court Began

Wheb Richard Lion ruled, why, thyen
The Saxons wore long robes,
He entertained three serving-men,
And all of them were rogues.
The first he was a miller bold,
The next he was a weaver,
The third he was a tailor, good lack,
And they were rogues together.

The miller he stole grist from the mill,
The weaver he stole yarn,
The tailor he stole broadcloth
To keep the other rogues warm.
But the miller he got drowned in his mill-dam,
The weaver got hung up in his yarn,
And Tailor Dick went plump to Old Nick]
With the broadcloth under his arm."

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:32 PM

A friend in Africa sang it this way:
In the merry old town of Lynn
When we lived under the king
Lived a miller and a weaver and a little tailor
Three jolly rogues of Lynn

refrain:   repeat last line 2x, repeat last 2 lines

Now, the weaver he stole yarn
And the miller he stole corn
And the little tailor he stole broadcloth
For to keep those three rogues warm

Refrain

Well, the miller was drowned in his lake
And the weaver was hanged in his yarn
But the devil got his claw on the little tailor
With his broadcloth under his arm

Refrain

I don't think I've ever heard it on a record or performed...

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:56 PM

I note that the final verse where the "little tailor skips through hell" is missing from all the earlier versions, which supports the family belief that Richard Dyer-Bennet composed that verse. But I'll check with his widow Melvene.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:53 PM

Charlie, Peter Johnson just released a CD "Newport's Fair Town" & I just listened to The Jolly Rouges of Lynn & he has that verse in it but he also says he learnt it from Richard Dyer Bennet........sometime in the 1940's. I didn't know Peter was that old.

Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:25 PM

Barry-

You're only as old as you feel!

Hell, I remember Dyer-Bennet singing this song at a concert at Bowdoin College in the early 1950's. His major recordings have been re-released from Smithsonian-Folkways Recordings. My mother says he also composed the final verse to "The Keeper of the Eddystone Light," the verse where the mermaid shouts "To hell with the keeper of the Eddystone Light!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Jeanne
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 06:51 PM

Hi, Bob C and hello, Charley N! Just coming across this thread while searching for something else. Bob, the version Bruce Olsen referred to tells essentially the same story as the Miller/Lynn/Colony variant, but to a different tune.

Claude Simpson identified "When Arthur first in court began" from a 1603 broadside, but said the song was likely older than that, as Falstaff sings the first line of it in Henry IV pt 2, II, iv, written 1596-1599. In 1631, the text was linked in Deloney's Garland of Good Will to the tune "Flying Fame," aka "Chevy Chase," mentioned earlier. More on this in Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and its Music, 1966, p. 98. "Chevy Chase" suits the Thomas Dibdin text that came from his play Ivanhoe, I, iii (Ann F. Howey, et al, A Bibliography of Modern Arthuriana, 1500-2000, 2006, p. 456), but it doesn't work with the Miller/Lynn/Colony texts.

Ian C's post, the Miller/Weaver/Tailor version of the song (Charles Johnson, London, 1804), is the oldest source mentioned here of a text that suits the "newer" tune -- there wasn't a link to the Bodleian broadside in the thread, so here it is if someone wants it:
http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Johnson+Ballads+fol.+84&id=23017.gif&seq=1&size=1

I'd be interested in knowing if there is an earlier example of the musical notation for the second tune than the 1878 sheet music already mentioned in this thread; of the two citations given above (Leonard Deming, Boston, 1829?-1851?, and John Church, Cincinnati, 1878), only the second has notation, and that one calls the setting a "New Arrangement." Since the text had been floating around since the beginning of the century in one form or another on both sides of the Atlantic, it's plausible that there could have been other settings, even by other names, in early 19th- or even late 18th-century Anglophonic songbooks. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM

Jim in Thamesford Ontario [e-mail]


I came across this thread when I was trying to recall a folk ditty from my youth. It went something like this:

There was a farmer had three sons
Three sons to him were born
And he came right home in the middle of the night
And he threw them out of doors.
And he threw them out of doors.
He came right home in the middle of the night
And he threw hem out of doors.

The first he was a stout miller
The second was a spinner of yarn
And the third to be sure as a little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm
With the broadcloth under his arm.
And the third to be sure was a little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm.

The miller he was drowned in his pond
The spinner was hanged in his yarn
And the devil ran away with the little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm
With the broadcloth under his arm
And the devil ran away with the little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm.

I'm not sure if I have all the words correctly as my memory of the piece is not precise and I may have borrowed subconsciously from some lines in this thread to fill in the blanks in my memory. However, has anyone else heard of this version? It did not have any references to a king - why would it instead refer to a farmer? Second and third stanzas are very similar in content to those listed but I think the one I knew went to a different tune. I'm trying to place that melody as I think it has been used with other words - I'll add that info if I can figure it out. Input or comments most welcome.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 02:55 PM

Part of the nursery rhyme quoted by Ian 12 Mar 03 also appears in the Scottish "Johnnie Lad":

When auld King Arthur ruled this land,
He was a thieving king.
He stole three bolls of barleycorn
To make a white pudding.

And wi you, etc.

The pudding it was unco guid.
'Twas weel mixed in wi plums.
The lumps of suet into it
Were big as baith my thumbs.

That makes more sense: big lumps, not just two lumps. However, the charming detail about the Queen frying the leftovers is missing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 07:33 AM

I well remember a young man teaching a guitar accompaniment class using this song as his illustration. It would have been, downstairs, in Cecil Sharpe House sometime around 1963/4 . I still have the verse that we wrote down with chords.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn/Cplony Times
From: GUEST,babypix
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM

Gentle Colleagues

Hate to open this can of worms yet again, but something that doesn't seem to be addressed here is "Because they would not sing", is this merely poetic, or does it possibly refer to something more political, such as a cautionary tale for tradesmen would wouldn't pay bribes? name names (e.g., sing)? ...or am I being too analytical?

Thanks,

Deborah Robins

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,babypix
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:25 PM

that is, COULD not sing, of course!

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:27 PM

I wouldn't read too much into this simple ditty. Dibdin rewrote it as a glee and as such you would probably find it in the many collections of glee books from the late 18thc. The Derby Ram suffered the same treatment among others. Glee clubs were common about this time, particularly in London. They also sang catches or rounds and I've often heard this song sung as a round.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,GUTCHER
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 07:10 AM

In a post in OCTOBER 05 a version of the song has Old King Cole as the father, Kyle, the middle part of Ayrshire takes its name from the said king with that part of Ayrshire to the North of Kyle being the home of the Lynns of Lynn one of whom features in the ballad "The Heir Of Lynn"

"The bonny heir the weel faured heir
and the weary heir o Lynn
yonder he stauns at his faithers yett
an naebody bids him cum in"

There is also a place called Lynn on Tweedside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Eldergirl
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:12 PM

I thought it was King's Lynn, but if there are other Lynns about, why not them?
Always liked the bag-pudding rhyme, too, especially the picture of the queen in crown and robes, wielding a very large frying pan.
Which reminds me of another rhyme:

In days of old when knights were bold
And pants were made of tin,
No mortal cry escaped a guy
Who sat upon a pin.

Profound thought, that.
(tee hee!)

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:14 PM

Did the Kingston Trio or one of those 1960s guy trios record this one?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: cnd
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:19 PM

Would you be thinking of The Highwaymen?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 10:40 PM

This is a song I heard at at my first ever Folk Club sung by the very talented and sadly missed, John Pearse.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM

The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem recorded a version on the 1967 release "Freedom's Son's" titled "When we were under the King" Columbia Records.