?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 05:25 PM

I have posted previously that there seems to be no credible evidence of the song being known to American soldiers in the Mexican War.
Gargoyle's post that Ford's book was a "REAL primary printed source" could be interpreted to mean that some evidence was there. That was what I was trying to elicit from Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:13 AM

The late Tom Brown used to sing "Green Grow the Laurel" (also known as Once I had a Sweetheart.") He used to introduce the song as the rationale behind the word gringo.

I suppose if enough people say it, it may have a ring about it, but I'm not sure, even now, over 20 years since Tom left us...

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 05:04 PM

All four or so of the 'Green grow...... songs predate 1800' but surely the references above make all this romantic twaddle.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:26 PM

The griego etymology sounds suspicious to me. Griego still means Greek. Why would anyone substitute gringo for the same meaning? That would be equivalent to English-speakers saying "it's Grink to me." Griego already had the desired connotation. It doesn't become more international or more derogative when you add the nasal. And it's not shorter, as when norteños say "spic" instead of Hispanic or "aussie" instead of Australian, nor a corruption of an unfamiliar foreign word, as when they say "dago" in place of Diego or "russkie" in place of Русский (rooskiy). Or when the residents of St Joseph, Missouri pronounce the name of founder Joseph Robideaux as "roobidoo."

The lilac etymology is at least plausible. Changing "green grow" to gringo is similar to the corruptions of foreign terms mentioned above. And remember that if you roll your R's, gringo is quite a bit easier to say than "green grow." Moreover, the song appears to have xenophobic and jingoistic sentiment (in the line "change the green lilacs to the red, white, and blue"), which might have made it a symbol of everything one resents about a people who've stolen half of one's country.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST,TonyA
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

That pro-lilac post was by me. I always forget to add my ID, and have no idea how to get it to register automatically.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM

For "gringo" all that's needed is a nasalization of the central vowel of "griego." (It happens in languages all the time: French for example. It's roughly the reverse of "dropping g's" in English, and we know how easy that is.)

It's harder to go from "green grow" to "gringo." Try it. Furthermore, every Spanish-speaking Mexican was familiar with "griego." No more than a handful could have been interested in "green grow" even if they'd heard it - and it's only an assumption that anyone did.

And of that handful, no more than *one* could have thought, "Wow! I'm gonna call all North Americans 'green grows,' because I've heard some of 'em sing that song! And I won't pronounce the second 'r' either! It's sooooo cool!" Then his friends would have had to think it really was cool; otherwise they wouldn't have started using it themselves.

As with everything else in the world, one cay always say "what if?" and "maybe...," and "that's just your opinion." But "griego" is the only choice that's supported by both fact and probability.

(It would still be even if the soldiers did have a song that started out with "Green grow...")

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: maeve
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

TonyA- Looks like you've lost your cookie. Try going to the "Quick Links" menu at the top of this page. Click on "Login" to get to the place where you insert your user name and password. If that doesn't work, send Joe Offer an email at: joe at mudcat dot org(removing spaces and substituting symbols for spelled out words as needed.)

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: TonyA
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:36 PM

Thanks, Maeve.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Slag
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:37 PM

"Griego" makes a certain kind of sense but it seems to me that the evolution of the term would not run from "gree-EH-go to "GREEN-go" Si? No?

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:08 PM

"Gringo" was already in Spanish in the late 18th c. Whether the origin was 'griego' or not is uncertain. The dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy does not speculate on its origin.

Diccionario de la Lengua Española (Royal Spanish Academy) gives its common meanings, a few below:
1. Foreigner (extranjero), especially an English-speaker (add French for Mexico).
2. A speaker of English (found in Central America; Honduras, Nicaragua, Cuba, El Salvador)
6. One with a light, blonde or ruddy complexion (Bolivia, Peru, Honduras, etc.)
7. One whose language is not understandable (Colloquial, widespread).

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:27 PM

While the discussion here has been quite erudite and informative, I'm afraid I must resort to the very common (US) expletive:

"It's all Greek to me." - even when you say it in Spanish.

John

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:59 PM

I find these folk etymology things interesting. The word griego or gringo was clearly used by Spanish speakers before the war but perhaps it wasn't so widely used . Along come US soldiers singing green grow the whatever it was and this reinforces the use of the word and gives it wider currency. Speculation I know , but such things can happen .

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: TonyA
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:22 PM

Maybe gringo is just onomatopoeia, i.e. not based on any one particular word or phrase, but just an attempt to evoke the generally more guttural sound of English and other Germanic languages in contrast to Spanish.

I was taught that the Greek word for foreigner, βάÏ쳌βαÏ쳌ος (whence barbarian), originated in that way, as a representation of how foreigners from the north sounded to the Hellenes.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST,Sue Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:12 PM

Oh I love this thread ! My friends,who are English and spent a couple of years on motorbikes in South America, in the early 70s, Spanish speakers, were in Mexico, and were followed along a road there when they overheard one of the group following them, saying, 'Oh they are gringos'. My friend turned round and replied 'No soy gringa , soy Inglesa', and received an immediate apology and had a great night with them. So it's not just non-Spanish speakers but definitely U.S. citizens.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: TonyA
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

What happened? Yesterday the Greek characters for BAR-bar-os displayed correctly, but today they're gobbledy-gook.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:23 PM

Testing
Α or α, Β, Γ ...Ω or ω

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM

Amazing!

This folk-derivation thread is possibly our first example of a Spanish "Mondegringo."

Bob

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 01:51 PM

Love this thread.   It reminds me that language is alive and does not stay static. Example is Shakespearean English or 1700 Revolutionary English and todays American English. Or the term gay meaning happy and today it almost exclusively means homosexual in the younger generation of today   
    I grew up a gringa in a hispanic society, BTW do not call the older generation chicano - it is an insult. At the time I was a kid it was an insult, but I found that if I embraced the term it lost its effectiveness as an insult. Today in the Southwest, it is an acceptable term.   
    After reading all the submissions, I suspect the truth is something like: the term meant foreigner or Greek, then as the Mexicans used it to refer to the Americans during the Mexican war Americans became curious as to what it meant. Not wanting to anger the American facing him, the Mexican related it to a song he had heard and thus the rumor began.
    I have experienced this with curse words in Spanish. When you ask what it means you get a watered down answer. Or for example I thought the word truchas meant danger or scatter or run because we used it to warn the kids the teacher was coming. I was 30 yr old before I found out it meant trout. Thus the scatter.
   Language origins can be so interesting.

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM

pinche guero!

Subject: RE: ?Why Mexicans called them 'Gringos'?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:58 PM

And what about Greigo as a cloak or great coat?