BS: a new punctuation mark

Subject: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Clean Supper
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM

Where else but here...

I have been thinking there is a need for a particular punctuation mark which looks like this:

..

Its purpose is to signify a complete absence of inflexion or emotion attached to the end of speech. It is to avoid the ambiguity of no punctuation without having to put in something that causes the reader to infer meaning.

It doesn't have the finality of the full-stop "." nor the pregnancy of the "..." I think of it a bit like a colon that has nothing to indicate and has fallen flat.

Someone used it in a message in the forum. The message started
"Hi.." and I took it to be the idealised non-committal opening. So there it is, in the publi domqin (to an extent).
Well, what do we think?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 AM

..not sure

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:57 AM

I think it need irrigation myself!
John

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

Well...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

..colonic irrigation?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM

So what you're saying, then, is that the first dot stands for "ho" and the second one stands for "hum"? Or maybe the first one stands for "what" and the second stands for "ever"?

Works for me..

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

..

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM

Taking you seriously (which may be a mistake) I would say that .. is likely to be confused with ... or .......   

Actually the application you describe, of flatness, lack of expression, is pretty durn indefinite. I see limited or confusing application for such a punctuation mark, even if there weren't the confusion possibility.

And third, actually what you are describing would not be a punctuation mark, it would be a rhetorical indicator, like the exclamation mark and the question mark.

"Other than that, good idea!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

Well, since everyone, simply EVERYONE, uses computers, why not use the pipe (|)? It indicates finality, but would be hard to confuse with the ! and would indicate a wall-like deadness.

Or, in homage to Microsoft, how about the backslash (\)? Of course, that could also be used to indicate cutting remarks.

The square brackets also have possiblities when used alone: ] means "I agree, but not with any great enthusiasm" and [ means "I disagree but not very firmly." The pointed brackets (> and <) could mean the same things, but with enthusiatic response.


All those in favor say "aye"|

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:55 AM

[!

A

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM

The pipe | and the exclamation point! are quite easily confused in many fonts.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:04 AM

That's a relatively good idea about the pipe, Rapaire|

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:19 AM

| ~Oh, that's the pipe ~ didn't even know it was there~ |   #;^D

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM

So why do they call it a "pipe"? It looks more like a cigarette.

If anything "?" should be called a pipe. It does vaguely resemble the type Sherlock Holmes smoked. In fact, the Spanish "¿" looks even more so.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM

I think of it a bit like a colon that has nothing to indicate and has fallen flat. Reminds me of a certain government official whose name is pronounced all wrong, imo...(sorry, I've always got to do "odds"...don't do "evens!"**bg**)

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

I would say that .. is likely to be confused with ... or .......   
(Uncle Dave)

What's the difference between ... and ....... ?

I'm not really too clear how.. differs from.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

Technically, "...", exactly three dots, is the correct form for ellipsis as used in research papers to indicate something has been omitted. Using more than three is non-standard and will result in turning your B- paper into a C paper.

On the other hand, in informal creative writing, you may use as many as you wish as often as you wish without fear of Dr. Momberger deducting points from your grade.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

It is taking forever to logon, when I can.

To address the thread topic, good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

What does a * before and after a word mean? As in *work* for instance.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM

"...", exactly three dots, is the correct form for ellipsis as used in research papers to indicate something has been omitted. "

Or in a quote on a Mudcat post for example, for precisely the same reason. But it also is correctly used, and probably more freequently used, as a way of finishing a remark, and leaving it open to the reader to assume that something more could be said, but...

In "Eats, shoots and leaves", the book about punctuation that just about every pedant in the UK received (and gave) as a present this Christmas, there is quoted a dialogue from Dud and Pete in "Not Only...but also" (talking about Neville Shute's novel A Town Like Alice) which is cheerfully relevant here:

DUD: What happened after that, Pete?
PETE: Well, the bronzed pilot goes up to her and they walk away, and the chapter ends in three dots.
DUD: What do those three dots mean, Pete?
PETE: Well, in Shute's hands, three dots can mean anything.
DUD: How's your father, perhaps?
PETE: When Shute uses three dots it means, "Use your own imagination. Conjuremteh scene up for yourself." (Pause) "Whenever I see three dots I feel all funny.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM

You know, I have never used the: |. What the hell is it really used for?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM

¬ seems to indicate a finality (alt0172)

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM

When it stands alone, I think the tilde ~ is an appropriate indicator of ambivalence. It reminds me somewhat of the "so so" gesture used in some cultures: hand rocked slightly with palm down, fingers curled slightly, pinkie and thumb outstretched.

It makes one wonder if any of this really matters ~

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:55 PM

: |    I think it might be a duck.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

Via Duck?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:09 PM

Okay, class, seekers of esoteric knowledge, and trivia mavens!

The | is called a pipe because it's used in programming (especially in Unix) to tell the computer to move the data it processes to something else. For example:

                     ps -ef | more

"pipes" the result of the ps -ef command to the more command (which allows you to see the results a little at a time on the screen, instead of having the whole thing scroll up top to bottow). You could also use

                      ps -ef | pg

and pipe the result to the pg command. The difference is that one will allow you to review the results screen-by-screen and the other line-by-line.

A * is called a splat.
A ! is called a bang.
A \ is a backslash, a / is a frontslash.
Typing _something_ like that is underlining, typing it *like* that is for emphasis. ALL CAPS is shouting.
A # is a pound sign.

Now you are all semi-qualified computer geeks.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

McGrath described exactly the most common instance of how I use the ellipsis here, to indicate I could say more, but am pausing at this point since the meaning has been made.

According to the Modern Language Association (MLA), an ellipsis should technically include spaces between the periods, thus: . . . to be clearly seen. If you use an ellipsis in a quote, it means you're dropping part of the phrase (for space and clear meaning). If you use . . . . (four dots) then the first one is the end of the previous sentence and the next three indicate that more than a few words, perhaps as much as a few sentences or paragraphs, have been dropped. They're trickier to use correctly. At some point you have to decide to simply use two quotes, rather than running two distant bits together as one.

I use the ~ to mean "about" or "approximately." I don't know where I picked it up, but it's pretty commonplace here in the U.S.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

wot du yu call it?

a hungry stop (cf full stop)

(I avoided suggesting the obvious menopause cf period)

It gotta have a name dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM

pipe? i have searched my keyboard uselessly - where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM

It lies just below the backspace key on my keyboard, freda.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

the tilde (~) for "approximately" is probably becuase it is used that way in mathematics - at least in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

Actually, there are two forms of the elipsis: three dots ( . . . ), indicating that something has been omitted within a sentence, or sometimes tying two sentences together; and four dots, indicating that the omission comes at the end of a sentence or paragraph, thus. . . .   The latter case is often used informally as a means if indicating an incomplete thought, presuming that the reader can fill in the rest.

Spacing is also regarded as important when typing a manuscript. In the three-dot ellipsis, there should be a space following the last letter of the preceding word, a space between each dot, and a space preceding the first letter of the following word. In the four-dot ellipsis, there should be no space between the last letter of the preceding word and the first dot, but a space between each dot. There should be two spaces following the fourth dot.

Or so says my style manual, which has a good section on preparing manuscripts for publication.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: s&r
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

£ is a pound sign - I thought hash # was US shorthand for number

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM

Right, Mario. In math it means "similar to". In logic it is used to indicate negation.

I still think it is might be a bit vague~

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM

| - thanks Alan - found it! (just above the backspace on mine!)

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Burke
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM

| is shift \ on my keyboard, but the key shows a broken line.

# means pound as in weight in US as well as number, also called a hash mark.

! bang and * splat make me smile. Much easier than exclamation and asterisk.

I also like the computer geekdom calls . dot instead of period or full stop. Dot com, etc.

If . means full stop, what's a not full stop?

.. looks like a typo. ~ for an indefinite feeling works better for me.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

you found it up Ý
there?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:52 PM

I just like the way tilde looks ~~~

Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM

I'm never too sure how tilde is pronounced. And in any case if you ever say it, no one knows what you mean. I used to have an email address with a tilde in it, and every time I gave it to anyone to write down, I had to explain, when I got to that bit. "Oh, you mean a squiggle!" they'd say. Which I actually think is a better name for it.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM

seems to be popular to NOT know too much, Kevin. I wonder what 'they' call the & ampersand?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

It seems to me a lot more people know about ampersands than know about tildes (is that the correct plural?). After all they're used and seen every day in the world away from keyboards. And they've got a meaning people recognise, even if they don't know the name.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM

Tilde, pronounced "TILL-duh."

As in the song:

"Ma tilde, ma tilde, ma tilde,
She take me money and run Venezuela."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM

Once a semi colon sat beside an Ampersand
Under the shade of the Alphabet tree,
And he sang as he sat and waited till his Hash was boiled
Who'll come a Waltzing my Tilde with me?...

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:32 PM

LOLOL!! I just shamelessly stole that one!

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

oh, by the way---

¥¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅ

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:24 PM

And if you copy and paste what Bill posted above, you get

¥¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅ

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:34 PM

because my post included a specification to use "symbol" font (do a 'view source', and you'll see)....that font is available to almost everyone on a PC, not a Mac)...I use a couple special programs to make using other fonts this way not too much work.

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM

Nevermind. I figured it out.

¥¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅ

Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

Because he used the alt symbols, probably.

"Tilde" is one of those words I usually only read, don't say, but when I read it to myself I call it a till-dee. I think I've heard it that way down here.

I just looked it up. Webster has til·de \'til-d e. . .well, let's try that again. Nope, can't do it.

No way to make that upside down "e" that sounds like the "u" in "abut." No hexidecimal code for it, no html for it. And when I was looking for it (all in the effort to post a pronunciation of the word "tilde") I found, in my 1987 Webster, that they call it a "swung dash"!!

SRS