Folklore: Slang words

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:12 PM

saying it one way or the other certainly DOES say something about you.(and I'm not sure Nellie has it yet, either *grin*)

In person, if you tell me you don't like the 'flava' of that coffee, I'll get it immediately and my brain will process it with almost no effort and realize that you have a cultural accent and pronunciation style. LOTS of cultures have variations in how and whether an 'r' is pronounced. High class English speakers often drop the final 'r' sound.........but....when they write letters or books, they spell 'flavor'....excuse me..'flavour'...*smile* (but always with a final 'ah'...)

What's the difference? Well, in this day & age, search engines for one! If you had posted 6 weeks ago about your favorite coffee and I went looking for it, I'd only be successful if I could remember that you chose to drop the 'r' and add an 'a' in your spelling.
   Not to be picking particularly on you...I have bit of the same problem, when a few folks choose to post in Scots dialect ("a braid type 'o spakin' wi' lot's o' apostrophies")...I can usually get it, but, except when that dialect IS the point, or it is used to explicitly give lyrics to Scots songs, it is hard to read comfortably.

It is VERY hard to control one's speech patterns. I have a funny combination of southern and midwest 'twang in my voice, and I suppose that I pronounce some words a little differently than Tom Brokaw would......but spelling is much easier to standardize. We have some differences between countries, but you can download a British or American dictionary for your spell-checker..(the Brits have a lot of words with extra letters 'flavour' 'colour', as you have noted).

IF you really wish to 'color' 'colour' 'colah'?? 'culla'?? (see the problem?)some of your postings to make a point about language, fine, but otherwise, you are exaggerating differences in places where they might be awkward. (There are very complex systems for indicating precise pronunciation patterns see this page...(if you follow the arrows, you can hear a speaker, read the text, and see the technical transcription of the text)

Who determines what is proper? hmmmm...I'm not sure that is the right question. There are ways to analyze what is standard or most common.....just search Google, for example...or get out a dictionary. 'Proper' is a subjective thing that depends on context. If you were to spice most of your posts with 'jive talk', you'd no doubt get compaints or just be ignored by some...and be misunderstood by others. It's not like anyone can make a law about how you can speak ...or even how you spell. But there are certainly standards that allow people who have variable dialects to communicate.

In Germany, there are a number of dialects...almost different languages at times...but there is something called "die umgangsprache", which is basically the form spoken by the newscasters on nationwide TV, that most people can approximate when necessary.
The word for 'beautiful', schön can be pronounced 'shone' or 'schurn' or a couple of other ways, but in print, it is, I believe, almost always schön.

ah, well....there is no easy stopping place to explicate a lifetime of thinking about some stuff....and not easy to differ with folks without sounding condescending or critical. But typing all this, whether anyone reads or agrees with me or not, sure allows me to refine my own views about subjects.....an ongoing process with no end in sight!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:20 PM

Bill,

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you that refining "my own views about subjects.....an ongoing process with no end in sight!"

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

:>))

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: GUEST,Mrs Miggins
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:37 AM

It's spelled ' flavour ' dearie, and we determined how it is spelled cos it's our language remember, it's not called THE QUEENS ENGLISH for nothing.

Gawd all bleedin mighty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:49 AM

GUEST,Mrs Miggins, you wrote:

"Gawd all bleedin mighty."

My response: Is "Gawd" the proper way to spell "God"?

{and}

Is "Gawd all bleedin mighty" a proper usage of the Queen's English?


Hmmmm....

And do you really care all that much if other folks use their creativity with 'your' language & in doing so make in 'their' language too?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Tongue-in-cheek?
Anyway the internet seems to be bringing back irregular, phonetic spelling.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM

Wal dash my buttons!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM

What a rum cove.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:21 PM

ah, Nellie & Mrs. Miggins...we colonials are devious! Just think how much ink we save every years by NOT printing all those extra 'u's in words!.....and DO consider saving yourselves some ink by spelling all those excessively long place names like you pronounce them... Chumley and Wustasher alone would save thousands of £s a year, I'd wager!

when people keep a language for centuries, they just forget to innovate, it seems!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM

Style, my dear egg, style.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM

We Canadians get the worst and best of both Yank and Brit versions of English. What you folks down south call "soda" we call "pop". We're less inclined to sit on a "chesterfield" these days, but that's just because we watch TV, where everyone sits on the sofa (Brit) or couch (yank). Some of us still have a car with a boot (I do), but hardly anyone's car has a bonnet or wings anymore; they've changed to a hood and fenders.

And if that weren't confusing enough, we have mid-Atlantic spelling: "Analyze the new flavours ..." and muddle ourselves up with French: "You hardly left me any place on that bench; shove over"!

No wonder so many people out west like to speak Ukrainian or Mandarin.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

oh, Charmion! The soda/pop thing is a REAL quagmire!
take a look

I grew up saying 'mostly' pop, but we moved so often that I heard 'em all, and sodapop was a nice alternative..*grin*....and as the page indicates, "coke" was an all-purpose word in some areas!


Old trick, which only makes sense if you live in the right place:

call local store....ask "do you have pop on ice?" "Yes" "well, let him out, Mom wants him to do some chores"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:42 AM

Gawd..........phonetic spelling of god, regional accent in England not slang.

Anyway viva la difference, languages are like folk music, not a set of fixed words or spellings but a living process, wouldn't the world be dull and lacking colour if we all talked exactly the same.

eric

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Could someone please explain this Americanism of saying phenom?? It's been bugging me for months. Phenom's only part of a proper and prefectly good word! Phenomenum is singular, phenomena, plural.
Would be like me suddenly saying this is incre, this is ama, what a fantas car, etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

sadly, there's a LOT of gratuitous abbreviation going on, but I don't think it's peculiarly American...I think it is partly that and partly a youth thing. Part of it is related to AOL and it's spin-off 'instant messaging' phenomenon (isn't that the correct singular?) When one is carrying on 9 simultaneous conversations, 'u cnt jst tpe all th wrds' (or maybe u jst wnt). But it has gone WAY beyond that...WWW pages that depend on user contributions ask for 'contris'. Ethnic slang uses many, many abbreviations to sound 'cool', and it is picked up by those who hope to be 'cool' without needing an ethnic identity.

I, myself, am tempted at times since I am a two-finger typist and rather slow; but I usually just prefer to see my own thoughts spelled out. I do make one exception however....I will sometimes type (usually in just informal blather) "through" as "thru", just because it is shorter and eliminates ONE of the many confusing 'ough' words in the language.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

Yes, sorry, I misspelt it. Phenomenon it is. I don't mind phenom as informal shorthand in, say, instant messaging, but in speech???

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Ferrara
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM

Sitting here grinning. For one thing, my hubby (Bill D) and I have had various versions of this discussion for most of the 24+ years we've been married. My own outlook is well summed up by Aziz's quote from the Jive Talk site:

"Swing talk is a loose, vivid, living language. It does not and cannot stand still; it partakes of the dynamics of our time. New words are forever entering the fold, old words departing or changing. Thrown up out of this flux are the following meanings of the moment. Take them for what they are: words, twisting and turning, seeking to find fresh, unique modes of expression that will embody the nuance and spirit of a modern, tradition-smashing music."

I'm for upholding folks' right to find fresh, unique modes of expression. I'm also in favor of supporting people in holding on to their cultural uniqueness rather than trying to meld into the "mainstream." (different discussion though....)

My opinion on modes of expression doesn't just apply to jive. I like dialects and colloquialisms. To me they're certainly as valid and special as local quilt designs, or folk art motifs, or ballad variations, or fiddling styles in expressing the unique character of the people who use them. They're human and they express individuality. They are an important antidote to cultural homogenization, mechanization, plasticizing and dehumanization which are major forces in the 21st century....

How's that for finding highfalutin' reasons for just liking something?

The other reason I'm grinning is that I just loved reading "My Hooptie." Wow. Wish I could hear it although maybe I wouldn't like that as much, who knows? Gargoyle, thank you very much for posting the words! I'm sure I would never have run across it otherwise and -- I really enjoyed it, have read it twice now. (Just another indication to my spouse that I've got low tastes.... he already knows I like Sh-Boom, the Beatles, and Danny Boy). BTW Gargoyle should "tabs expired" read "tags expired"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:36 PM

Even in England the language of the older generations differs from place to place town to town, add in the youngsters, incomers, other groupings and English as a language fragments into thousands upon thousands of mini dialects.

I have picked up oddments from the Indian sub continent - 'lathy charge', for instance - what the news would call a baton charge by police; pigeon English from who knows where, 'wheelie-wheelie', a bicycle; I occasionally bring people up all standing using nautical terms.

Most people apparently have the ability to change their vocabulary to suit the situation, having a different dialect to use with parents, peers, maybe teachers or managers at work.

Most slang seems to be used deliberately - dialect is more a local habit, and there tends to be a lingua franka for interactions with strangers. Perhaps it is more a lingua telephona these days. It can be quite interesting listening to someone on the phone changing their whole way of speaking between calls.

Without the visual input of conversation people tend to put more effort into what they say and try to create a verbal persona grata. It can be embarassing, though, just listening, because it is so obviously, audibly, false.

I realise I tend to use bits of Latin out of habit and have made a conscious decision to use them where they are natural to me. It used to be a dialect, when I was younger, but now it would have to be catagorised as slang.


Anne

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 02:18 AM

Nothing wrong with slang and jive talk, it's bloody mobile feckin phone text speak that is so feckin irritating, definately a ' yoof ' thing.

eric

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 07:55 AM

Ferrara,

I was feelin rather alone in this discussion so let me say that it's a pleasure to meet a kindred spirit.

And in to toast this meeting, here's a children's cheer {written somewhat phonetically}:

BOOM CHICKAH BOOM
Caller: I saidah boom chickah boom.
Group: I saidah boom chickah boom.
Caller: I saidah boom chickah bo-oom.
Group: I saida boom chickah bo-oom.
Caller: I saidah boom chickah rockah chickah rockah chickahboom.
Group: I saidah boom chickah rockah chickah rockah chickahboom.
Caller: Well, alrigh-ite.
Group: Well, alrigh-ite.
Caller: Well, Okay.
Group: Well, Okay.
Caller: One more time.

-snip-

The caller then repeats the entire cheer, but usually selects a different way to say it {such as faster, or as if she [he]is mouthing words under water}. The group continues to imitate the caller.

For the record, I have seen this performed without accompanying movements {such as foot stomps] or as a foot stomping cheer [African American elementary school aged girls & boys; Pittsburgh area, 1980s to date]. I also saw it recited as a playground cheer by African American elementary school aged children on a mid 1990s TV report about integration in a midwest city [Chicago ??].

****

Enjoy!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 11:13 AM

*grin*...my beloved spouse, Ferrara, didn't mention she was reading and commenting in this thread.....I must comment on her sentence:
"I'm also in favor of supporting people in holding on to their cultural uniqueness rather than trying to meld into the "mainstream."

"Rather than?".......Nowhere did I say, or suggest that it had to be either/or!!!! I am of Scots/Irish ancestry, and I sometimes go to the Scottish Games, where kilts are worn, dialects are polished, and food and traditions are celebrated and FLAUNTED! It is a good thing to remember, celebrate, understand and generally keep alive your heritage and its underlying language...but there are reasons for "when in Rome, do as the Romans"...at least while the Romans are listening, and if you want something from the Romans!

a careful reading of my comments will reveal that NOWHERE did I say that one should never use slang or vernacular...or cultivate one's cultural dialect....etc...I only note the difficulties that result when it is used to the exclusion of 'standard' language in groups that don't get it. Some creative play with language is fun, interesting...and even useful---but some is awkward and ephemeral and designed to exclude and obfuscate....and lets face it, some is so convoluted in its references that even the users can't really explain it...even to each other!

The metaphor of "The Tower of Babel" was supposed to be instructive...*wry grin*