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Subject: A note on Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Hell Date: 06 Mar 98 - 07:09 AM I had always thought that "Three Score and Ten" was traditional in the sense that no author was known anymore; and "traditional" is the label given to this song on many of its recordings. I was quite surprised to find recently (source: R. Palmer, The Oxford Book of Seasongs) a note giving an author for the lyrics and telling the tale of how this song became "traditional" and, in that process, lost the correct dating of the disaster. Here's the note from Palmer in full length with a few corrections from another source:
Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Songster Bob Date: 06 Mar 98 - 04:03 PM Does the original have the line "From Yarmouth down to Scarborough"? Because some lively debate has gone on about that, given that it's not usually considered "down" to go from the one to the other. I read somewhere, in fact, that the original town was Earmouth, in Scotland, which, in dialect, gets a "Y" initial sound, as in "Yearmouth," and the vowel as well gets changed, so that "Earmouth" *sounds* like "Yarmouth." Can anyone confirm or rebut this suggestion? |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: John Nolan Date: 06 Mar 98 - 05:32 PM The nearest thing to Earmouth in Scotland that I know, Songster Bob, is Eyemouth, a fishing village (pop c. 2,500) in Berwickshire. In the local accent it's called approx. "Highmooth" by some. Then, in N. Northumberland, there Learmouth, pronounced Layahmooth, locally. But Earmouth, hmm? Could it be near Nozanthroat? |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Hell Date: 10 Mar 98 - 04:17 AM here's a copy from an old thread relevant to this thread:
I can add nothing about the original request I'm afraid. but I can throw some light on the point about "Three score and ten" by Ferrera. Scarborough is indeed north of Yarmouth, but in interpreting traditional folk songs you need to know a bit about the millieu in whivch they were created, The prevailing winds, currents and tidal streams of the East coast of Britain mean that going North is the "Downhill" direction, usually running with the wind on the port quarter, whilst going South meant beating into the wind. Hence amongst the sea farers the reference was always to going "down to the North".
However, I recollect hearing up to Scarborough from the singing of the McKenna Brothers. I'll relisten tonight. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Mar 98 - 04:53 AM I listened (looked) at the four recorded versions and three printed versions I have. All of them have Yarmouth and Scarborough. Nearly all of them have "down", only M.Pollard, Ballads and Broadsides, has "up". Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: jojofolkagogo Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM Well I always sing "from yarmouth TOWN " since it is UP and not Down to scarborough ! If it dont make sence, CHANGE IT Jo-Jo |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:58 AM jo-jo; as explained above, Scarborough is DOWN from Yarmouth - in the terms of the fishermen and sailors. Just as Maine in the US is DOWN from Massachusetts, though UP on the maps. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM really really hate that song..... it is to folksinging what Kes and timothy Winters are to English teaching |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:23 PM Who? |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: s&r Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM I'm with Town Stu |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:27 PM That's a strange song to 'hate'...Most folks I know think it is pretty well done and of historical interest. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: bill\sables Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:27 PM I always heard the song as "From Yarmouth round to Scarborough." Another line in the song which always brings debate is "They longed to fight the bitter night" which I translated as "They long defied the bitter night" |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM well I think its lugubrious in the extreme. by the time the fishing craft and trawlers are fighting with the bitter swell for the second time, I'm mentally machine gunning the rubber dinghies. And theres still a way to go. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:55 PM They long did fight the bitter night |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM It's ROUND to Scarborough. Billy |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: stallion Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM I learned it from the singing of "Ralph Mc" Mell (he used to sing streets of london every week)and Mac at the Scarborough folk club, The West Riding Pub, in the late 60's, it was definately "down" then !!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM The chorus wasn't in the original broadside (the text of which is quoted in another thread on the same subject; see links above). We have it only from the set recorded by Nigel and Mary Hudleston, from "Jack Pearson and men" at Filey (no date, but given elsewhere as 1957), and this is the one that was popularised by the Watersons and from which, so far as I can tell, all other Revival variants derive. Pearson sang "down", if we are to believe the Hudleston transcription and the Waterson's understanding of the recording; and there is no obvious reason why we shouldn't. That doesn't mean that "town" is necessarily wrong (and it does make sense) but it does mean that nobody can say that "town" or even "round" is correct; those readings are interesting, but no more than guesswork and speculation. Interestingly, the editors of Songs of the Ridings comment that "It seems that the tune is a highly corrupted 'Jingle Bells', which dates from the 1830s." Now there's a thought. Listening to it with that in mind, I rather think I believe them. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:27 AM possibly they travelled down south from Yarmouth to Scarboro, hoping to miss the bad weather......via the Isle of Wight. I mean......seriously! I think what gives the lie to it, isn't the faullty navigation. Where would folksongs be if you dismissed them on grounds of Geography - The land of California, Sweet Home Chicago possibly. Fishing people by and large are optimists - you couldn't do the job otherwise. yes the working conditions are shitty. yes people get killed doing it - the safety standards are unquantifiable..... But if you felt as pissed off as most people sound, singing this song, you'd be slashing your wrists rather than setting out to sea. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,IanG Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM Seems to me that whether the direction is up or down, whether they longed to fight, long did fight or long defied and whether people love the song or hate it, there can be no doubt that it has succeeded magnificently in keeping the storm in question in peoples minds. The superb information in these discussions has succeeded in telling a lot of people the date of the storm, the names of the fishing craft and the name of the writer. I think its a grat song and remember learning it with six others in the back of an old box shaped Austin on the way back from the folk club at teh Blue Bell in Hull in 1967 |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:28 PM I was also wondering about the tune after being at a session last week where someone sang "My (or 'The') Lovely Rose Of Clare" which bares a striking resemblance to the tune used for "3 Score & 10" & where there were slight differences it was still in harmony though it had no chorus just a repeating refrain. I have no idea of the age of "My (or 'The') Lovely Rose Of Clare". About the "Down", I believe the "Down" as I've always seen it in print (Roy Palmer has it as "From Yarmouth 'Down' to Scarborough", see below) & heard it, referes to sailing downwind, doesn't matter if it's up on a chart or north if it's downwind it's down as far as a sailor's concerned. I believe we've done this before, from the Oxford Book of Sea Songs by Roy Palmer (p.274-275). "'In Memoriam of the poor fishermen who lost their lives in the Dreadful Gale from Grimsby & Hull, Feb. 8&9, 1889' is the title of a broadside produced by a Grimsby fisherman, WIlliam Deld, to raise funds for the bereaved families. It lists 8 lost vessels, the last 2 from Hull: Eton, John Wintringham, Sea Searcher, Sir Fred, Brittish Workmann, Kitten, Harold, Adventure & Olive Branch. I addition the names of some of the lost sailors are given, & there is a poem in 8 stanzas. This past into oral tradition, & in so doing lost 6 verses & aquired a new one (the last, in which an error of date occurs), together with a chorus & a tune. The oral version was noted from a master mariner, Mr. J. Pearson of Filey, in 1957, and has subsequently, with some further small veriations, become well known in folk-song clubs." Barry |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:04 PM Well, yes; in the first post of this very thread. Chris Ball's 'Lovely Rose of Clare' does indeed bear a striking melodic resemblance to 'Three Score and Ten'. Whether the imitation was deliberate or unconscious, I wouldn't know. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:07 PM Thanks Malcolm, now I know where that comes from, was wondering. Barry |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Betsy Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:54 AM I understand a freak tidal wave hit the East coast of England in the late 1800's. The East Coast is not noted for such things. Yarmouth is almost certainly South of Scarborough, but ill informed singers have found it much easier to sing Yarmouth "down" to Scarborough instead of the correct "up to" Scarborough. Maybe synoymous ? with another well known song "won't you come down to Yarmouth town " |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,redmax Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:16 AM Malcolm said "if we are to believe the Hudleston transcription". It's probably worth noting that Songs from the Ridings is riddled with errors, as the transcriptions were entrusted to a pair of chaps who did a rather poor job. Some of the song words are clearly wrong |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Betsy Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:58 AM No matter redmax - a great song and definitely a good chorus |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Rumncoke Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:06 AM This is one of the first folk songs I heard in a pub - I certainly heard it in Barnsley in the late 60s - upstairs at the King George. The line is From Yarmouth down to Scarborough in my book, because that is what was sung when I heard it back then. I sing 'Went out to fight that bitter night and battle with the swell.' thats in the book too. Having done a bit of sailing in coastal waters, and also on the Norfolk Broads, I can tell you that with the wind, tide or current with you there is definitely the impression of going downhill. With the wind abaft the beam on a calm sea the bow is actually pressed down, and running goose winged into an opposing sea can be a touch interesting for the steersman. (the prayer 'Oh God don't let her gybe. Oh God please let her bows lift on the next wave. Oh God send my relief early' is appropriate for these occasions. The last line is often omitted in anything over a Force Five but can be replaced by several 'Oh Christ!!!'s depending on the time between waves. There might be no Atheists in trenches but most of those who venture out in small ships know Psalm 107 23 even if they have never read it.) With the elements against you it is an uphill struggle to make any progress. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: The Sandman Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:32 AM I thought it was William Delf, not Deld. The year as I understood it was February 1886. Here is a fourth verse, which I think is good. This was passed on to me by Peter Purves.
Methinks I hear the skipper say come lads come shorten sail, IMO, it doesn't matter if you sing, "long defied" or "long did fight", however, the meaning is altered if you sing "long to fight". Personally, I don't think any seaman longs to fight the possibility of death. Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:58 AM Mar 2nd 1889 The full results of the fearful gale of the 9th ult upon the GRIMSBY Fishing Fleet are now becoming known. Of the safety of seven of the missing smacks all hope as been abandoned These vessels are, BRITISH WORKMAN, ETON, SIR FREDRICK, ROBERT'S KITTEN, SEA SEARCHER, JOHN WINTRINGHAM and HAROLD. The total number of lives lost could reach between 70 and 80. This calamity in a single port is one of the most appaling on record. from: Shipping February-March 1889 |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Santa Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:59 AM I remember it as "down" from the sixties, for what that's worth. I also remember a singer in Blackpool Club, mid seventies, introducing it as a Yorkshire song. I was sitting between two lads from Grimsby, who put him right very quickly! I would offer one piece of evidence, not directly relevant perhaps but indicative. On British railways, the down platform was always away from London. So heading North (as from Yarmouth to Scarborough) would be going "down". The point, perhaps, is that geographical "south" is not always "down", despite that being the way they print the maps. That's just a misapprehension of the chairborne. I think the true reason lies in the sailing conditions, but I've no direct evidence. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: SINSULL Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:05 AM Alright. I'll admit it. In one of my ditzier moments, upon hearing Three Score and Ten for the first time, I tried to find Grimsby on a map of Maine. Yarmouth is north; Scarborough is south; but no Grimsby. Well..Gordon Bok was singing it so it made sense at the moment. SINS |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM Brian Dawson sang this in a singaround at Sidmouth, and (because he is so well versed in the traditions of Lincolnshire) I listened very carefully to his chorus - he sang "long defied", which I thought made sense. But when I talked to him afterwards he said that the William Delf version was "longed to fight", but he thought "long defied" made more sense! Kitty |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: SINSULL Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:56 PM Long did fight that bitter night Their battle with the swell works too. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:43 PM I've also heard it as Long did fight that bitter night and battled with the swell Kitty |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM I too sing that verse that you cite as a fourth, Cap'n, but in my mind it seems like a later addition. I have no evidence for that, but it fels like it. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:36 PM I like this song a bunch. It too is one of the early songs in my rep and I sing still. Gordon Bok does a great version of it. His low voice makes it sound like a lament. I learned it as "From Yarmouth Town to Scarborough..." I always viewed this song as a news report. A rhyming headline and following newspaper report telling a story of national interest from the local point of view. It needn't be any more than that. Don |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Santa Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:46 PM It is a lament. The poen was originally sold to make money for the widows and orphans, as I understand. Or perhaps was - what you are doing in treating it as a news report is just the folk process in action. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM The assumption that going North should mean going up and going South should mean going down is pretty unsustainable, when you think of it. And it isn't in fact sustained in normal usage. For example, in Harlow we'd never talk about "going down to London". ................................ Anyone feel like giving a link to the original broadside words from 1889? I don't mean because they should be considered sacrosanct - original broadsides almost invariably get improved in oral transmission - but it'd be interesting to read them. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,Mikefule Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM I'm with "down" as in "down wind" because that makes perfect sense, and most mariners wouldn't read charts and have any preconception about up and down in terms of north and south. Even today, if you ask someone to draw you a map of how to get to the pub, shops etc., they don't make a special point of putting north at the top. The version I've always "heard" is: It's three score and ten boys and men were lost from Grimsby town From Yarmouth down to Scarborough many hundreds more were drowned Their herring boats, their trawlers, their fishing smacks as well They **learned to fight** that bitter night And battled with the swell." |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: the button Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:11 PM Another interesting feature of this song is that the tune fits the words of the verses of Pinball Wizard. I was first alerted to this when I found myself singing "From Soho down to Brighton, he must have played them all" instead of "From Yarmouth..." |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,padgett Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:50 AM Yes very interesting I am familiar with all the difficulties in this song having heard it first as one contributor said in Barnsley at The King George and Civic fcs Jim Potter was the man in the 1960s and he has recently come back from Whitby ff, Jim is 78 y.o. Now I don't know where he got it from but probably the Watersons who got it from Hudleston's SOTR which has been pointed out has some 'mondegreens', even so it is a fine song and yes there is another verse as pointed out not sung very often I dont think it really matters whether it is Up or Down it is a fine song nonetheless The SOTR Hudleston do indeed carry a set of words and The Yorkshire Post recorded said Jim Potter with me John Greaves Ray Black and Steve Gardham whilst we were there ~ there is an online video of us currently as well as an article in last Saturdays YP I have SOTR which are available from me and are of excellent academic interest. It is always difficult to work out certain words from recordings as you will appreciate and those working on this "telephone book " of songs [not us] did a good if not perfect job of it The Yorkshire Garland Web site will have this song sung by Jim and "Three Score and Ten" folk group which has Brian Senior and Ivan Robinson in the chorus, words lyrics provenance notes by Steve Gardham, music notation and a midi with many others Web site is in place but we are currently putting all the information on will be 80 songs by next May (should be)so not public yet [free download for non commercial use] eventually Ray Padgett (at work retiring in 3 weeks!) |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten (Some notes.) From: Mysha Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:15 PM Hi, Down: The translation from north to down or up has never made much sense to me, but: Couldn't "down" simply be the direction away from the speaker? Month: The October's night doesn't seem to fit the text at all. Night doesn't bring a sight; it's dark. It's the first light of the new day that we curse for revealing the disaster that occured during the preceding night. But what wording for dawn or light can be misheard as "October's Night"? Poem: What some people find so irritating is the poetic image, I think. The "me-thinks"-es make the build-up more sinister. See the original poem, imagining them at first happily going about their fishery business. It makes the disaster unavoidable, as we can't stop the song before it the storm strikes: The first person telling us about it has already witnessed the whole event, so there's nothing we can do. We can only watch helplessly as the ships fight the storm and eventually go under. I wonder if the whole poem would go well as a song. Mysha |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Bert Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM They're along to fight the bitter night - maybe. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: theleveller Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:58 AM On the east coast of Yorkshire, where I was born and bred, and especially in Flamborough, the 'Great Storm' always meant the one that ocurred in February 1871 when 30 ships and boats and 70 lives were lost. Grimbsby was especially hard hit and the Bridlington lifeboat saved 16 lives before being overwhelmed. I've always thought of Three Score and Ten, which I've been singing since I first heard the Watersons perform it in the mid 1960s, referred to this storm but somehow the month was wrong. There were other big storms, in 1894 and 1899 but not on the scale of the Great Storm. Maybe the song is just a combination of all of these rather than the reference to a single event. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Mysha Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:02 PM Hi theleveller, In this thread, you'll find the original poem, and its dedication. The dedication refers to 8/9 february 1889, and the poem does not include the verse about October. As there's no October in the original, the reference to that month can probably be ignored for the dating. The origin might be the Great Storm of '71, if the poet intended to stress that '89 was another blow, but if the poem was written for the occasion, it would seem more likely to me that he would have written about the '89 storm itself. That's something to consider, though. Are you still in the area; would you be able to find information on how many lives really were lost in which storm? (Just before posting, I realised the "Thursday" mentioned in the text can help dating as well, as it means the night of the storm must have been that between Friday and Saturday. The dates of 8/9 february 1889 fit, but the dates of the Great Gale, 9/10 february 1871 are actually thursday and friday. So, 1889 does indeed seem more likely.) But my problem with "October's night" is not that it doesn't fit the song, but that it doesn't fit the verse. The Digital Tradition has "October's night brought such a sight" (here). But nights don't bring sights, so although it's poetically as good a fit as you can have without the "Me thinks I" of the other verses, it's a poor choice of words for the meaning. (I guess it proves the Duchess right: "Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves"; it doesn't work the other way round.) Hence I wonder if the person writing the final verse really put it quite like that. Hm, Me thinks I see at first grey light, a sight not seen before Of broken spars and beams and masts a-washing on the shore I feel the sorrow that was shared by many a heart so brave As many a fine and hearty lad had found a watery grave And it's ... Mysha |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Bert Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM I seem to recall reading a book that mentioned a North Sea Storm in the early 19th Century where 200 boats were lost. But I can't find any reference to it on the net. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Barry Finn Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:00 PM According to Roy Palmer in his "Oxford Book of Sea Songs" the title of the broadside produced by William Delf was the "Dreadful Gale from Grimsby & Hull, Feb 8&9,1889'". If one checks the past threads (see the top of this page) there you'll find much more info Barry |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Mysha Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM Hi Bert, I don't know of any songs about it, but there was a Wrecker in 1833, I believe, with hundreds of ships lost. Maybe that's the one you're thinking of. It's quite obvious, though, that to keep a disaster in the collective memory, you need to have a song written about it. Just like the wreck of the Sloop of John B. is one of only a few ships remembered, at least in name, next to a multitude of wrecked ships thave just disappeared, so Three Score and Ten has kept a memory of just one particular storm alive. Mysha |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:19 PM Out of interest the storm surges happened again about a week ago and conditions were ripe for another disaster. The last major such surge was, I believe, 1954 when many lives were lost down the East coast of England. Wonder if the 1889 one was a storm surge? No lives lost this time, as far as I know. Who says modern science doesn't pay? D. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:41 PM United kingdom disasters (not complete I'm sure) Christmas eve storm of 1811 could be Bert's storm. 1953 was the last big North sea storm: 1,800+ killed in the Netherlands, 300+ in the UK, 300+ (combined) at sea, in Belgium, France and Denmark. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: JennieG Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:23 AM My choir sings this song...and I swear that one of these days I will slip up and sing "and battle with the smell" - fishing boats would pong, I'm sure. I am making light of the storm or the poor souls lost, but much as I try to put it out of my mind I know it will creep back in. Cheers JennieG |
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