BS: School Shooting In Montreal

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:11 PM

The last name "Gill" is found all over the British Isles, means "dell" or "glen" or "marsh". The first name"Kimveer" looks Dutch to me, could be French, don't know. However, the combination "Kimveer Gill" may be Hindu or Sikh (Indian). Anyone knew for sure?

Claiming that someone made a racist remark requires the race be an issue in the discussion. I have not heard one word on the news that suggest this guy was "ethnic". Has anyone got a definitive answer?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM

He is Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Beer
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:11 PM

What's the difference if his ethnic, native or what ever label anyone wants to put. He was a human being. White, black, yellow, green, orange. Who should care except raciest. I agree with guest. He was a Canadian. So what if he was a Muslim, Indian, Eskimo, Irish, Scotch, English, Dutch and so on. He was still a Canadian.
No, I guess we have to put a label. That's important. So we can continue to create hostilities among ourselves. What's the old saying? "Simplify, simplify" or did John Prine say it best, "Common Sense Don't Make Sense no More".
The point I guess I'm trying to make is that this thread should try and stay focused on the situation that took place and what ideas can be contributed to preventing such an atrocity in happening again. But not on his nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM

So who played the race card?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:33 PM

Essentially correct, Beer, but someone here charged another Mudcatter with racism.

             "That's right, blame immigration. You have made a truly repugnant, racist suggestion."

If Gill was not an immigrant and not "ethnic", how can someone even consider making such a charge. It's too easy to throw hurtful words around. People who do should be called on the carpet for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:25 AM

Are these the remarks you are calling racist?

"I do know that when English is not the first language at home, kids often slip under the 'cultural radar' of their parents. What parents may perceive as normal behaviour for a child adjusting to new cultural norms, is actually deviant and not 'normal' at all. It is often difficult to detect a deeper problem."

...or was it that I suggested that assismilation may have created a 'cultural clash'.

Neither of those statements are racist. I was referring to cultural differences that occur when a child has a 'new' cultural identity and the parents are still operating with the cultural norms of their country of origin. This enables a child to 'slip under the radar' especially if the parents are not fluent in English or remain immersed in their original culture.

It has nothing to do with skin colour.

It has more to do with culture and especially language. Many of my neighbors are from India and we get along fine but I do know that they don't know half the stuff their kids are into. This is not because they are not loving parents but because there is a cultural and linguistic divide that makes it easier for deviant activity by their children to go undetected. I also know that Kimveer Gill is an East Indian name, probably Sikh.

In a nutshell: Its hard enough to keep track of your kids but if you are not connected to the schools and community, (which is difficult if you are not fluent in English) its even more difficult.

This can hardly be called racist. If anything, its called trying to understand.

I think you know this (and if you don't you should) but what you are really trying to do is attack me personally. You are way off the mark. I don't even believe there are separate races. In fact, there is only one race. The human race.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM

Many of my neighbors are from India and we get along fine but I do know that they don't know half the stuff their kids are into. This is not because they are not loving parents but because there is a cultural and linguistic divide that makes it easier for deviant activity by their children to go undetected.

Most parents don't know half of what their kids are into whatever their background. You, of course, must be one of the rare exceptions.

There is also an inference in your statement that while the Indian parents in your neighborhood don't know half of what their kids are into, you do. Otherwise, how would you know that the parents are unaware? Therefore, may we assume that you, as a concerned citizen, are alerting these parents to their children's anti-social behaviour?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

QUESTION FOR DIANAVAN:

My grandparents came here from India in 1954 (mother's side) and 1957 (father's side).

My mother was born here, my father arrived with his parents when he was not yet two years old.

I was born here in in 1977, so I am just four years older than Kimveer Gill was.

When you call Gill and his familiy immigrants, you are calling me and my family immigrants.

I am a Canadian, my parents are Canadian. My grandparents all became Canadians.

But you only see that our skin is brown, so to you, we are just immigrants.

You are a racist.

By the way, Dianavan, I have never killed anyone. I have never threatened anyone. I don't know anyone who has.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM

My question then, Dianavan, is how many more generations will it take before you consider my family to be Canadian?

The same answer will apply to the sad Gill family.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Just checked back to see what was going on and saw Raptor's question, "Gnu how did the gun laws make them defenseless?"

Very briefly :

Back in the '80s, in Canada, legisaltion was passed which required all guns to be "locked up" and, separately, all ammo to be "locked up". This was meant to prevent children accessing arms and ammo, was also meant to prevent adults from "ready access", thus helping to prevent crimes of passion.

On the other hand, this law allows crimes such as home invasions to be perpetrated much more easliy. The elderly and single females living alone are far too often victims of such crimes. Essentially, they are not only defenseless, they are victims of this law itself because criminals are emboldened by this law. Yes, that's right, that's more or less what I said...this law has increased crime.

BTW, before anyone calls me a bigot, read what I posted carefully... I did not say homo invasions.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:28 PM

The silence is deafening.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:44 AM

"A son's estrangement from his roots is something most immigrant parents accept, said Basir Hussein, executive director of the Alliance of South Asian Communities.

"Here they get involved in the local society, so their attitudes change. It's normal," Hussein said.

But some parents who expect full obedience from their kids can be heavyhanded in their discipline. This, said Hussein, can cause a child to rebel even more.

But there's no indication Gill's parents ruled the home with an iron fist.

While they were not fully involved in the community, everyone who spoke to CanWest News Service said they are moderate, kind people who integrated well into Canada.

It's this paradox that has the community shocked and flummoxed, Verma said.

Youth of South Asian origins have been showing some troublesome signs lately, Hussein said, which spurred the community to develop preventive social programs.

"They're like any other youth. There are some problems with school dropouts, with drugs and alcohol. We are working very hard to make them understand what kind of problems they'll create if they get into these activities."

(Montreal Gazette)

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:07 AM

I don't think ethnicity had anything to do with it.

On CNN I saw pictures that Gill had taken of himself holding a rifle and a knife. The most notable thing about him was his utter lack of presence - the emptiness of his eyes. Here, they said, is a nebbish. A toxic nebbish, certainly, but still a nebbish.

Apparently he spent much time on net sites glorifying his fellow toxic nebbishes, Eric Klebold and Dylan Harris, the Littleton, Colorado murderers. Finally he decided to become "somebody" by following in their footsteps.

Society needs to address the processes by which malicious strangers identify and manipulate weak people like Gill.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:45 PM

You're right. leenia, and I think that's what people are trying to figure out. Everyone seems to have their own take on how people in our society become so alienated and/or marginalized. There are several ways this can happen. We do know that in his high school yearbook, he was the only student with nothing under his picture to describe himself.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM

GUEST,Anand M.,if you are still reading this thread,

for what it's worth, dianavan and I differ on the matter of whether it is more than rhetoric to say that there is only one race-the human race. I believe that race is a social construct. However, that does not negate the fact {as I see it} that people regularly but not always use this social construct. And saying that race has no biological bases [or legal basis? anymore] does not negate the fact that individuals and groups are heavily impacted positively and negatively by society's definition of their race and society's views about their race.

In my opinion, "color blindness" [the act of denying that races and racism exist] is unrealistic and can be dangerous to your health & wellbeing.

I work for a time when a person's race will be just a descriptive characteristic without any positively or negative value.

Guest Anand, I encourage you to join Mudcat or at least keep posting as an identified guest. I encourage this because you are a person of color and [imo] there needs to be more people of color on Mudcat, and because you are appear to be a thinking, caring person who is Internet savvy enough to have found this International discussion forum. I invite you to add your voice to the mix.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:38 AM

Yes, Azizi, we do disagree about the what defines race but I wasn't discussing race. I was discussing the reality of immigrant families who may not speak English at home or may be experiencing culture clash. Two different things. To be called a racist for explaining that some children are caught between two cultures, is inaccurate, to say the least.

Its not true of all children, but I know how difficult it is for ESL parents to keep up with the rapidly changing values of their children, especially if there is a language barrier. In other words, while some of these mothers stay safely ensconced within their families, their children are playing some pretty dangerous games in a society that they know little about.

My guess is that Anand M. is a troll.

My answer to his question is this: That depends on the immigrant. If you want to apply for citizenship, it can take less than a generation. It takes a long time to learn the language and cultural values of a new country, however. That doesn't mean you're less of a Canadian. We are multi-cultural. Its just that the children are usually several steps ahead of their parents when adapting. This creates a generation gap. We all know what that is. For immigrant families, it is often magnified.

To express sympathy and understanding for his mother can hardly be called racist. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:00 AM

"To be called a racist for explaining that some children are caught between two cultures, is inaccurate, to say the least."
-dianavan

I agree, dianavan, that this statement is inaccurate. I also consider it to be unfair to label you a racist on the basis of that statement. However, I also believe that racism toward non-White immigrant families can impede the social integration of immigrant families in their new nation.

I can see how not speaking, reading, and understanding the language their children speak -the language of the majority culture-would add another layer to the difficult job of parenting.

That said, I would be interested in finding out if anyone has done any recent research on what percentage of first generation immigrant parents in Canada don't understand English {or French, if living in Quebec}. Somehow, I don't think it's the entire population of first generation immigrant parents.

Here's an excerpt from this March 2006 online article that I found:
"Immigration is transforming not only the face of Canada but also the very definition the country gives itself. Canada is a land of immigration and its largest city, Toronto, with almost half of its inhabitants having been born in another country, is now one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. The city has the fastest demographic growth of all cities in North America. Between 1950 and 2005, Canada received more than nine million new immigrants, a number almost equivalent to the entire populations of Austria or Switzerland. The very diverse origins of Canadians and their integration into the English-speaking majority probably constitute the most powerful force leading to a new self-definition in Canada. Not being of British stock, new immigrants do not see themselves as English Canadians, but simply as Canadians."

Canada and Québec: An Update

I would be interested in learning more about the social/cultural integration experiences of first & second generation immigrants in the USA, The United Kingdom, Germany, and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:37 AM

Thanks, dianavan.

The spirit of inquiry (how did this happen, and how can we prevent it happening again?) is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

"Name calling is a form of bullying and is especially repugnant when it's so off the mark."

-Dianavan, September 17, 2006

"My guess is that Anand M. is a troll."

-Dianavan, September 20, 2006


Dianavan has painted herself as a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

I would also point out that Dianavan has gone on and on blaming immigration and Kimveer Gill's ethnicity for his murderous acts.

Then,when Leeneia says, "I don't think ethnicity had anything to do with it," Dianavan chimes in with, "You're right. leenia."

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:55 AM

With all the warning signs from this guy's web posts you would think someone would have done something?

But no.

It happens right here and nothing is done.

Its all a joke, right?
----------------------

Subject: RE: BS: How best to apologize
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:37 AM


I feel lots and lots fo things.... like total contempt for a moron like yourself... I'd feed you to rats, except that I'd feel sorry for the rodents.....

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Raptor
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 10:39 AM

Clinton Hammond is harmless, ...unless you're a skunk!

Raptor