Riverdance. Good or bad?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 00 - 08:40 AM

Flatley left Riverdance, as I understand it, in a dispute over billing and choreography. Rumor has it that he didn't feel as though Jean Butler deserved equal billing with him. He travelled with the Chieftains for a bit and danced in their show. I saw him at Michigan State University during this period. His dancing was superb. He then bankrolled and choreographed "Lord of the Dance". I didn't enjoy this show as much as "River.." but it was still enjoyable to watch. He then went into a show called "Feet of Flames" which I have not seen. I understand that he recently signed a movie deal.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:13 AM

I understand that Michael Flatley has retired. "Feet of Flames" was the final performance of Lord of the Dance, with new music and songs (including Carrickfergus and A Maighean Mhara) in London--signifying his last performance in LoTD and professional dancing. There is a truly spooky movement at the end of the show, after the lights go out, seeming to be the end of the show, a lone spotlight appears...all alone on the middle of the empty stage is a pair of Michael's tap shoes...lonely and sad that they will never be used again...if you look closely, one of the shoes is slowly, but visibly, moving on it's own. Fans say that it's his heart in the shoes, still beating. His tap shoes may be retired, but his heart will always be there...and all this to the mornful sound of Michael playing "Whispering Wind" on his flute...spine-tingling.

--Mbo (BTW I want that leather jacket that Michael had in the final show--one side was the American flag, the other side was the Irish flag)

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: alison
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:24 AM

Last time I heard about him he was meant to be taking up boxing........

I saw him and Jean Butler dance with the Chieftains in Belfast.. before either of them were famous..... he didn't look nearly as sexy in a kilt.......

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Gervase
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:34 AM

What is good is that Riverdance, for all its Busby Berkeley-style choreography and castardised music, is inspiring a new generation to try the real thing, if only to provide hoof-fodder for the inumerable spin-off shows - witness this from the London Evening Standard:

DATE: 8 Dec 99 BYLINE RONAN MCGREEVY HEAD Irish river of dance keeps profits flowing TO PAST generations, it was as deeply unfashionable as Morris Dancing - a pastime confined to draughty civic halls in the suburbs of north London. This month, however, with the launch of two more shows in London, Irish dancing has become both sexy and lucrative. Dancing On Dangerous Ground, created by former Riverdance stars Colin Dunne and Jean Butler, opened this week at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, while next Wednesday, Spirit Of The Dance opens at Wembley. Behind them all, of course, is the all-singing, all-dancing milch cow known as Riverdance. When Riverdance returns to its Dublin home next summer, it will have clocked up a global live audience of nine million. The show's publicists estimate another 1.2 billion - a quarter of the world's population - will have seen it on television or video. Even allowing for the hype, Riverdance has made its creators, husband and wife producers John McColgan and Moya Docherty, very wealthy. The couple mortgaged their house to pay for the first Riverdance - The Show, which opened in London in May 1995. Then, Docherty was earning about £35,000 as a producer with RTE. Last year, she was estimated to have a personal fortune of £31 million and she now owns 99 per cent of Abhann Productions, the company which created Riverdance. The couple recently sold their County Meath home and are building a mansion on four and a half acres overlooking Dublin Bay. Riverdance generates more than £100 million in revenue every year. Its three troupes, Liffey, Lagan and Lee, named after Irish rivers, are booked up until 2002 at the earliest. Irish dancing's first superstar Michael Flatley was the 25th highest paid entertainer in the world two years ago, with earnings of £33 million, according to Forbes Magazine. His exit from Riverdance in October 1995 turned out to be a financial stroke of luck. His subsequent stage creation, Lord Of The Dance, now has three troupes performing around the world and a new show, Feet Of Flames, starts in Germany in March. Meanwhile, the interest in Irish dancing shows no sign of slackening; neither does the bizarre proliferation of dance troupes seeking to cash in on the phenomenon. Like so many mutating centipedes, there are at least eight other shows of comparable size to Riverdance at present on tour around the world. Here in London, where the phenomenon took shape, Irish dancing has exploded from a terminally unfashionable preserve of Irish country girls with ruddy faces and thick ankles to something that can be thought of as "cool". Ten years ago there were about 25 Irish dancing schools in London. Today, there are at least 97. With so many shows on tour, a good dancer can command between £500 and £600 a week on tour and many of them have already signed for the two new shows in London. Dancing On Dangerous Ground's Jean Butler, 28, with her flowing red hair and lissom figure, made Irish dancing something most observers thought it could never be - sexy. The pair had little difficulty in securing the backing of promoter Harvey Goldsmith before his well-publicised financial difficulties. Costing £1.5 million, Dancing On Dangerous Ground is a creative gamble. Unlike other Irish dancing shows, it seeks to tell a conventional story in a conventional way - in this case the old Celtic myth of Diarmuid and Grainne. Though it made her a star, Butler believes Riverdance has questionable artistic merit. She says Dancing On Dangerous Ground is different. A show with less lofty artistic ambitions is Spirit Of The Dance. Its instigator, Yorkshireman David King, spotted an unparalleled opportunity when Riverdance opened. "Everybody I asked told me it would not last," he said. "But I knew there was a desperate need in the provinces for a show like Riverdance when the original was based in London." Spirit Of The Dance opened to a full house at the Bristol Palladium in September 1996. There are now six troupes performing around the world and the show's base is in Reno, Nevada. Mr King is hoping the Wembley Hall show will attract 5,000 people a day for its three-and-a-half week run.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:36 PM

Riverdance good or bad? Good. Definitely.

1) The Performance: It itself is good. Several of the composed pieces were 'composed in the tradition' and pass very well for traditional tunes. In particular I really loved the tune "The Countess Cathleen". It reminds me of "Ashokan Farewell" in that you feel it must be hundreds of years old despite the fact it was recently composed. By the way I've searched for the sheet music to it in vain, if anyone knows a source I'd be greatful. The band was excellent as were the dancers and choir.

2) Legacy: I think Riverdance did for Irish culture what Ken Burns "Civil War" series did for the American civil war. I mean all I can say is that on our local PBS station, ever since the onset of Riverdance, there have been a score of Irish programs every year (usually just about 'pledgetime'!). The recent rage is a series of concerts by the "3 Irish Tenors". Not only music & dance, but historical documentaries as well have flourished. The people are not satisfied with just Riverdance.

So I guess what I am saying is that people who had never seen or heard any of Irish culture are being turned onto it. If such a person is drawn to it, then they are not going to be content to just rewind 'Riverdance' in their VCRs over and over, but are going to seek more of this stuff out and ask questions such as "What is this?", "Where does it come from?" and "Where do I go to find more?".

3) Irish Pride: I (by the way, I have Irish roots) have perceived a certain 'nationalistic pride' in the people of Ireland since this worldwide fascination with their culture began after Riverdance. Let's face it, as a nation it does not have the triumphant history of many lands and has spent much of the last 3 or 4 hundred years in a perpetual state of civil war, hardly an environment in which to build up societal institutions. To some degree it has always lacked a little self esteem, perhaps feeeling like the 'illegitimate little brother' of England . It seems now that, through the music and dance, it is saying "Yes we ARE different, we have our OWN identity, are OWN history, our OWN integrity!"

THese are just my few thoughts, YMMV, of course.

Keith

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:21 PM

PREACH ON BROTHER KEITH!!!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:50 PM

we saw riverdance at the wang in boston.Loved it. Eilene Ivers and all the rest of the band put on one of the best live performances I have heard.the whole production was fantastic.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:52 PM

KGH--is Brendan Power still with the company? That dude is AWESOME!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Callie
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:22 PM

I read on the Shaker website that Michael Flatley is currently engaged in legal dispute with the Shaker community for using "Lord of the Dance" without acknowledging that it comes from "Simple Gifts" which is the most well known and loved Shaker hymn.

Callie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Hilary from NZ
Date: 25 May 00 - 06:24 AM

just wanted to say that Brendan Power is a Kiwi (New Zealander) Not sure if he is still touring with riverdance - don't think so. just wanted to say he's a New Zealander.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 25 May 00 - 07:36 AM

Keith,

I agree with you and everybody else who says that the Riverdance phenomemon has done more good than harm.

It is also clear that there is a growing interest in Irish culture and Irish music and dance, and a growing self confidence among Irish people.

I think it would be a mistake, however, to attribute all of this to Riverdance. It is fundamentally to do with rising standards of education in Ireland starting in the 1960s, the economic development that has taken place since then, and the escape from Britain's shadow through membership of the EU.

I personally think the Irish soccer team's participation in the World Cup finals of 1990 and 1994 had a lot to do with raising Ireland's profile. A gutsy team playing to the maximum of its ability, and the thousands of jovial supporters who cheered their team even in defeat generated an enormous feel good factor back home and among Irish expatriates everywhere, and gave an excellent impression of the country to the millions watching abroad. The large contingent of British born players on the team and the fact the manager was English also served to remind the sometimes parochial home-based Irish that Irishness is a state of mind reaching far beyond the shores of Ireland.

Tourism from Italy doubled in the year after Ireland played there in 1990 and tourism from everywhere has increased enormously in the last ten years. And Irish pubs are spreading everywhere, including Buenos Aires as Andres/Escamillo was telling us recently.

Quite apart from the interest in Irish music going back to the 60s (starting with the Clancy Bros and the Dubliners), you also have to reckon with the success of the likes of U2, The Pogues, Sinead O'Connor et al in extending the audience for things Irish.

Riverdance certainly contributed to the growing vogue for things Irish but I'm sure you'll agree it shouldn't take all the credit.

BTW, I'm moving from Luxembourg to Brussels next week. As soon as I get a permanent e-mail address I'd like to sign on and become a member of this wonderful forum.

Cheers,

Art O'Malley

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 00 - 08:17 AM

"It does not have the triumphant history of many lands"(GUEST Keith) - I can't think which lands would be...

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 25 May 00 - 11:49 AM

Me thinks good musicians, but could do with less drums and keyboards. urrrgh!
ian

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: radriano
Date: 25 May 00 - 02:38 PM

My daughter, who is now fifteen, started taking step-dancing lessons when she was three and a half so I have had a lot of exposure to step-dancing.

I saw both the original Riverdance and Lord of the Dance and my reaction was that some of it was very good and some of it was not so good. Riverdance and LOTD took traditional step-dancing and made it into a show that certainly had a lot of energy. To make the dancing appeal to a greater audience they expanded on the tradition and added features that are not strictly a part of the tradition.

We should also keep in mind that there are two kinds of Irish dancing -- step-dancing and country dancing. While a glint of country dancing was shown in the shows the emphasis was on step-dancing.

I was also disapointed with the singing in the shows which didn't even sound particularly Irish, at least not to my ears. It's too bad they didn't use some traditional songs. I understand that the music for Riverdance was all newly composed, a feature which I disliked. While there are a lot of good recently composed tunes I felt that some of the flavor of Irish music was lost. Also, there are a lot of recently composed tunes that have entered into the tradition already. I don't see why some of those couldn't have been used.

I'm glad that Riverdance and LOTD have made dancing more popular but remember, when you make something appeal to the masses you end up compromising both music and dance to some degree

radriano

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,liz the squeak
Date: 25 May 00 - 06:00 PM

Bought the CD after seeing the show. The high point of the show for me was the hard shoe - the strike of shoe against board makes the rythmn for the music - what did they leave off the CD? Yes, not a single footfall to be heard. Great piece of music, but a bit like doing a piano concerto without a piano.....

Michael Flatley insured his legs for stupid amounts of cash and then sprained his ankle before the ink was even dry on the policy........!

Ha!

LTS

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 25 May 00 - 07:01 PM

MBO-I know your doing hear me right now but maybe you`ll read this later - When we saw river dance the Orchestra was: Eileen Ivers, fiddle: Uliann Pipes Brain O'Brein: Keith Edge, Nikola Prova , Elis Egan Electirc and acc guitars: Des Moore Percussion ( who was without any doubt fantastic)...Desi Reynolds Bass Guitar...Eoghan O'Neil Bodhran..and Jim Higgins Keyboard and Pete Whinnett... I looked over the program as you can tell but didn't see the name you mentioned We saw Riverdance in the 1996/1997 series.... KGH

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: zenduck
Date: 25 May 00 - 09:42 PM

Oh dear, oh dear...First "scholarly" discourses on the deeper meaning of "American Pie," and now encomia for "Riverdance." What's next, the Kingston Trio as true heirs of the American ur-folk zeitgeist?

"Riverdance" is right up there with green beer and the Lucky Charms Leprechaun in my book of Irish cultural icons...I do believe I have had enough of this twee little chat club. Bye.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Brendy
Date: 26 May 00 - 01:35 AM

I don't disagree that Riverdance is dynamic and exciting to watch, but lets not throw the baby into the bathwater here.
As Fortunato has lamented, the popularity of this 'phenomena' has almost over-excited certain people, to the detriment of the music.
It also gives a false image, to a degree, of Irish music internationally.

On the one hand, we have the likes of the 'Dubliners', where every foreign audience you play to insist that you sing at least one of 'their' songs. You have the 'Pogues', 'The Waterboys'(????), and now 'Riverdance'.
It's not that I don't like this music. I'm well into it, in fact.

However, I object to mental images of my country being conjured up in foreign imaginations which exacerbate already clichéd beliefs about us.
No less than the Hollywood presentations of us, I dislike the other images of us potrayed by our own Tourist Boards, and other commercial interests overseas.

Riverdance, The Dubliners, The Pogues, are all trademarks of Ireland plc. (or Inc.), and they feed on the rich musical heritage to earn their bucks.
'Moving Hearts', although a commercial band, tackled 'Irish fusion' in a different and less blatant way than Bill Whelan did, and in a lot of respects paved the way for the 'Riverdance' train of thought. I remember, about 1982 or thereabouts, sitting in a pub in Askeaton, Co. Limerick and a whistle player from Dublin walks in the door. He started 'McBrides', and before he could repeat the first part, I was right in behind him.
We played it through THREE times (1/4 beat breaks and all), and when we finished there was about 4 seconds silence before the place erupted. But what was played was not Trad., it was 'Trad-Jazz', or 'Irish Fusion'.

What Bill Whelan did was to expand on that and what Michéal Úi Súilabháinn was doing and 'techno' it a bit. A kind of 'Teach Music', if you will. But as represantative of Ireland and things Irish as the Dubliners and the Pogues are.

Not only dancers did this phenomena breed (and is still breeding!), Oh, sad Fortunato,but the myriad of Ringo McDonagh clones that seem to appear out of the walls these days. At least Ringo is a decent one.

I would drift more towards the "Riverdance - We love you" brigade rather than the "Come all ye..." brigade, though, if I had to choose one avenue where I would prefer to see Irish Music heading. For at least the attention of the audience is focused on the music; a much more ethereal experience altogether, considering the alternative, which often involves singing 'popular' songs that poke fun at ourselves, purely to satisfy and re-state pre-conceptions others have of us.

B.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 02:36 AM

Was it a taking back of entertainment that had been stultified?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 03:20 PM

It's not a question of good or bad. It's either you liked it or you didn't. Or it didn't matter to you. At the very worst, it gave employment to a large number of Irish dancers and musicians - not just Irish, either.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 02:03 AM

Maybe it was good and bad simultaneously

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 03:38 AM

Parody

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 04:44 AM

Why do I get the feeling that GUEST, GUEST and GUEST, who came into this discussion 23 years late, is one person arguing with himself?

DC

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 05:57 AM

Why do I get the same feeling as Doug, and also the feeling that GUEST, GUEST, and GUEST is, in fact, someone well-known on this Forum?