Riverdance. Good or bad?

Subject: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 May 00 - 07:31 AM

There appears to be a lot of different opinions as to whether the whole 'Riverdance' thing was good or not.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:52 AM

great show - period!

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:56 AM

Arguably not the best representation of traditional music (I know nothing of dance but love those legs), but if it brings folk music to the uninitiated, how bad can it be? Eventually music lovers will seek out other tunes.

My personal complaint is that though the music is played note perfect, it seems, they seem also to have taken much of the swing, lilt, subtlety, and grace out of the tunes and sacrificed them to sheer force. However, again, if this is what it takes to turn people on to traditional music, there has to be a good side.

There is also the concern about how tunes will change when performed for the dancers as opposed to how they're played when performed for listeners, but maybe that's another thread.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:12 PM

Having only seen them on TV, I have to say that the way they are depicted in that medium detracts from my ability to enjoy them. I don't like all the switching back and forth between legs-only closeups and shots of the whole stage. Keep the whole stage and maybe P-in-P the closeups, if any. It's the gestalt I like so much, and I really really like it!
Also, I agree with Mooh that it sometimes seems that force has overcome beauty, but I have come to see that force as a different (not light, not lilting) kind of beauty, with its own appeal...

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:32 PM

I agree completely with Mooh. I was hooked on Irish music the very first time I heard it played. The problem today is exposure and many of the impressionable youngsters never get a chance to hear this kind of music.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: alison
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:34 PM

I remember the first time I saw them perform the actual "riverdance" bit itself on the Eurovision song contest....it was wonderful (or maybe I was homesick sitting here in Oz).. brought tears to the eyes, and a lump to the throat..... Jean Butler was just wonderful...... and Michael Flatley was amazing.....

I have to admit I wasn't fussed on the entire show..... and "Lord of the dance" was a bit too much "I love me, who do you love"... although Flatley was good......

but they did stir up an interest in Irish music and dance all over the world.... and I think that is good....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: paddymac
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:59 PM

The "Eurovision" birth of "Riverdance" was, after all, a competitive endeavor, and the bit did win the contest. At one time or another, most of us mere mortals fall into the trap of criticizing a thing for what it is not, rather than appreciating it for what it is. "Riverdance" (and, collectively, its various off-spring and imitators) is a huge commercial success because of what it is, not what it is not. Anyone who thinks that the show represents the totality of Irish traditional music is simply not sufficiently informed. And anyone who thinks that it represented itself in that light is similarly deficient. It is what it is, and no more. A grand bit of musical theatrics. "Thank you" to any and all who have given of their blood, sweat and tears to make it happen.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 20 May 00 - 01:21 PM

On the whole thing, I'll pass!!

My favorite example of "Irish Dancing" is in the movie The Field... -THAT'S- how people who are enjoying themselves dance!!! None of this prancing aroudn with a fake smile painted on yer head, with yer arms rigid to yer sides... For another good example, see the video by Lahey (sp?) fot the song... B Minor... Or is it Call To Dance... They all sound the same to me!! LOL!!

I'm pretty sure it's "The Call To Dance" that has the pretty cool video...

{~`

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 May 00 - 03:10 PM

I like the show, period, as Jed said! While the dancers and tha pageantry are all nice and good, I prefer just listening to the music. And I do love the added percussion of the tapping. I'm don't really care if they got fancy outfits our jeans and greasy shirts on--it sounds good to me, and that's all that matters. It's the same with Lord of The Dance, which is awesome too, but like I said, I'm more interested in the music. And yes, in LoTD they use many traditional tunes, including Calliope House, Jenny's Chickens, etc. LoTD has some killer music. Overall I don't give a dingo's kidney whether it truly "represents traditional Irish music." That's not a big thing on my checklist--it may for anal-retentives--but not for me. I'm a music lover, and if it sounds bloody good to me, I'm going to like it. I don't care much at all about truthful representations, because most of the stuff you folks sing would be slammed as nonrepresentational by bards and minstrels from 600 years ago. BTW Don Dorcha RULES!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Racer
Date: 20 May 00 - 06:00 PM

I once heard an Irish comedian say that "Riverdance" was touring the world because they got kicked out of Ireland.

I personally liked the show. Of course, I'd probably like anything involving Jean Butler.

-Racer

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:28 PM

"The "Eurovision" birth of "Riverdance" was, after all, a competitive endeavor, and the bit did win the contest."

In a sense that's true - but Riverdance wasn't any kind of entry in the contest, in a formal sense. It was the show that was put on during the break in proceedings while the voting was being carried out. In that context the impact was to outclass everything in the Eurovision contest by several lightyears, and give a hint of what real music and dance could be about. And it did so in front of a few hundred million people. Gobsmacked them I think is the inelegant expression that best fits.

The actual show was an anticlimax, though in all kinds of ways it was still brilliant. What it reminded me of is the kind of show that you get from visiting companies of Russian "folk performers". It bore the same relation to the Irish traditions as Oklahoma does to traditional American music. Great of its kind, and it's a different kind, and not to be sneered at by any means.

Saying unkind things about Michael Flatley - well that's something else again. We'll never manage to say things near as unkind about him as a lot of the people who've worked with him do. It doesn't stop him being brilliant.We're just lucky that most of the people who are brilliant in this kind of music aren't like Michael Flatley.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:31 PM

RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?

Both.

~S~

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From:
Date: 20 May 00 - 09:54 PM

Hey, I thought this mudcat site (I discovered you 4 weeks ago) was a collection of sophisticated folk-heads (like myself?). The responses so far about "Riverdance" disappoint me. I'm not worried that "true" celtic music will get stomped out of existence. The good stuff will always get commercialized, just look at what happened to "The Thistle and Shamrock" show in the last 10 years. The good stuff will always be there, under the surface. My Irish music heroes are Silly Wizard, early Paul Brady, the O'Carolin (sp?) tradition. Have any memorable lines of poetry arisen from Riverdance? Any "airs" that sends you into emotional extasy?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 May 00 - 10:24 PM

Here are my favorite lines of poetry from Riverdance. How about

Out of the dark we came, out of the sea.
Where the long wave broke on the shore.
As the day broke
and the night roled back,
there we stood on the land we would call home.
Out of the dark we came
out of the night
the first of many mornings in this new place.
When the sun rolled back the mist
we role like a strong wave on land.
Now we were the people of this place.
What burns through the mist?
What banishes the dark?
What makes the children straight and great?
The sun is our lord and father.
Bright face at the gate of day.
Comfort of home, cattle and crop.
Lord of the morning, lord of the day.
Lifting our hearts we sing his praise,
dance in his healing rays...

Or,

No life is forever
We found and fought
we loved and died here
Wave after wave the sea of time beats against every shore
Whole generations live now to depart
The land has failed us
the dark soldiers appear against us
In dance and song we gift and mourn our children
They carry us over the ocean
in dance and song.

-The folk process?
-As for memorable airs, try "Lift The Wings" and "Corona" and "Caoineadh Cuchallain".
-I'm not sure, and I don't want to insult your intelligence, Mrb, but Silly Wizard is Scottish.
-I like Thistle & Shamrock, it's WAS the reason I got into folk music. I've listened to every single episode since January 1997. The most played artists? Battlefield Band, Maura O'Connell, Dougie MacLean, Kate Rusby, and William Jackson--hardly commercialized junk in my opinion.
--Also, Turlough O' Carolan isn't technically folk--he was a composed just as Bill Whelan is a composer. We'll see what people think of Bill in 400 years...I wonder if they will look back at his music for Riverdance as folk music, and modern 24th century Irish music total trash. Kinda makes you think. Go easy. Don't be so easily offended...let us enjoy our perverse fun, even though you might not agree. It's no good fighting over it...it won't resolve anything. And BTW the last thing I'll ever be is a folk head...

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 May 00 - 10:50 PM

Is it sacrilege to suggest that any commercial venture that makes money is, by its own standards, good?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From:
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:03 PM

In the early 1940's my college educated mother said this to me over and over: "de gustibus, non disputandum est." Meaning, when it comes to taste, there is no ____________________. You can fill in the blank. -- Harold from Hawthorne

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:58 PM

Personally I enjoyed the video of Riverdance when I watched it with my kids. I was disappointed in the choral stuff, I thought it too much the same and therefore too esily predictable. There was excitement and energy in the dancing and that was communicated to the viewers. That energy is what carried Michael Flatley through two more movies of dancing and part of me envies that energy and incredibly focussed drive, but part of me admits the validity of the distractions I have and allow. Michael and I live in very different worlds with very different personal goals and abilities but we like some of the same music and that is where, and probably only where, we intersect.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,John Twomey
Date: 21 May 00 - 12:30 AM

I just saw it last week, and I feel ambivilent about it: for some, it's the first time they're hearing anything sounding like traditional Irish music. If it leads them on, thats good: if it turns them off, that's bad.
But I was thinking, if you put on a show about Germanic culture would you compose music that sounds a little like Bach, a bit like Mozart, or would you draw on the great body of music that already exists: after all why reinvent the wheel. There is a great body of music of Irish music better than anything I heard Whelan compose. But what he did is good within the theatrical production in which it appears. I guess Riverdance is good for people who like both Irish music and big theatrical "Broadway like" productions and for people who love dance: I enjoyed the tappers best. I hate Broadway type shows, and I got dragged to Riverdance and left feeling, well, like I said, ambivilent and maybe a bit resentfull.
But in the last six weeks I've been to concerts by Altan and Da Dannen that left me walking on air. Now there's a contrast worth discussing.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Rosebrook
Date: 21 May 00 - 01:13 AM

I live in a remote area, and have never seen the show live. I like watching the video of Riverdance. It's a fun, upbeat show. I like the dancing, the music and the vocals. To me, it's fun and entertaining.

I really, really like watching the video of Riverdance taped in New York. The male principle dancer is not Michael Flatley (I forget his name) and he is good. Jean Butler is the female principle dancer and she is fantastic.

I like the Russian dance troupe better in the first Riverdance video. I am captivated by the "Spanish" dancer, and really enjoy the interaction between her and the featured fiddle player. I like being able to see more of the band in the NY video. Of course, I really enjoy the uillean pipes solo.

I am moved by the NY show in several places: the hoe-down-type large group dance, the drumming, the lovely vocals, and the dance between the two groups of fellows that reminds me of the Jets and the Sharks. : )

So, to me Riverdance is good. I've enjoyed watching it many times.

Rose

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,June B
Date: 21 May 00 - 03:51 AM

I can't say I watched the video that closely. The dancing is great, of course. The piper was excellent. I was just annoyed by the new-agey celt-oid songs. There are so MANY lovely traditional Irish songs, couldn't they have used a couple? Nothing wrong with composed music, of course, and I happen to like some that might be called new-agey or celt-oid. But in this context, I felt cheated, no, I felt Irish music had been cheated out of a chance to really reach that audience. Just my opinion

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 21 May 00 - 04:57 AM

Riverdance was and is, an ambitious endeavour.
From the "acorn" planted on Eurovision, to the grand
stage production, it has given the world at large a sample of a remarkable endureing culture.
Like many things that attempt to do so much, it struggles to tell a huge story, and this it does well to the likes of me, a mongrel Aussie with a good swig of Irish blood in my body and soul.
Yes, it does this as a sort of romance.
As we, the disenfranchised children of a culture we will never truely know, grope for our inheritance, at least we can now do so without losing the dream.
And if it portrays the Irish as a nation of music loving dancing legs, at least it is closer to the truth, than the previous image of the stupid and ignorant, as was so fashionable in the Irish Joke times.
Another thing too, there is a story of hope and resurrection, through times of struggle.
Something that brings hope is GOOD.
I also loved the Dance and the music.
Spider Tom

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: roopoo
Date: 21 May 00 - 05:55 AM

I think it has done a lot to popularise celtic music, which is no bad thing, speaking as one half Irish, but what strikes me is that now to the uninitiated, all traditional music from the British Isles is Irish! It probably has done wonders for the cultural uptake in Ireland, but it has been felt, I think, much wider than that in that most "non-folk" people here in England seem to think of Irish music when their minds turn to folk, not to their own. This is not the fault of Riverdance. I think it may be a side effect of a truly multi-cultural society, where English tradition is now just one of many. And let's face it, Riverdance as it was first seen came like a bolt out of the blue. It woke me up from my usual Eurovision nap and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing.

I am, however, put in mind of an episode of "Cow and Chicken" where girls are auditioning for a speaking part in a film, and every one bar our horned heroine is a "Puddledancer" much to the director's disgust.

mouldy

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JulieF
Date: 21 May 00 - 12:06 PM

The problem that I and many of the people that I know have with Riverdance was not the the show but it was the fact that it didn't develop and it it refect backwards. People assume that Riverdance is Irish dance and anything else is not. If you have a company of dancers that all about the same size and shape you can do wonders. On one notible occasion one of Cat's dancing teachers sorted her kids out in size to work on displays three months before a big festival. By the time they got to the festival they had all grown and developed at different rates so vision had be obscured.

On the positive side. It brought many kids in to Irish dancing, especially the boys. For a while there was a trend for simpler dresses in competition for the older girls. Unfortunatly this didn't last. ( you do not want to know the price of Irish dancing competition dresses). People also got into the music from there - which has to be a good thing. Some kids I know had the chance to work with a large dance company which will stay with them regardless of what they do next.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:00 PM

I liked the cartoon which depicted a dust-covered book with the title "Irish Dancing Book II - The use of the Arms" !

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:32 PM

McGrath - Thank you for the clarification in re "Riverdance" role in the "contest". I had been under the impression that it was an "entrant" in the contest, but am glad to learn the nature of its role. I recollect as well that it was put together in a fairly short time period.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:27 AM

Thanks for that image Alan Francis. The one thing that really irritates me in the dancing is that an entire marvelously expressive portion of the body is clamped down and silenced; more it seems in the women than in the men.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:38 AM

I think the original Riverdance (I've never seen it live, just on tape) was a pretty good show for what it was, but I would hope that the resurgence of interest in Celtic music and dance doesn't begin and end there. It was meant to be a big, dramatic spectacle, and it succeeded -- the synchronized drumming of so many pairs of feet can't help but make an impression, and the whole package was put together with a lot of skill. Like so much pop culture these days, it's meant to overwhelm, and it does.

Riverdance also represented an integration of music and dance that many people had never experienced before, in any genre. That's a good thing, in my opinion, because it opens people's ears to new possibilities. But I would hope that the "over-the-top" aspect represents a ceiling, not a floor -- that future endeavors in this vein will strive for more subtlety, rather than more bombast.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:43 AM

I don't think I agree about the arms causing a loss of expression. If you see a really good dancer in a light shoe dance - she (or occassionally he ) will have an amazing abilty to just hang in the air. I think you wouldn't get this impression if the arms were moving. The related dance forms where the arms move such as appalacian clog give a totally different feel to the dancing. Most Irish dancers will dance SET and Celi dancing as well - so they don't loose out totally on the arm movements.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Áine
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:59 AM

Found a good brief history about Irish dance at this site. If you don't know very much about Irish dance, this will give you a good, quick overview. Enjoy!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:59 AM

But they didn't do it in Riverdance so what they do outside of that isn't seen. I'm not arguing that there is a different effect created when you don't use the arms but wonder if it needs to be the only effect seen. Any effect used in a song, dance or play becomes distracting if its used over and over again.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 10:36 AM

If what you are saying is that the forms of dancing that were used did not provide enough variety for a whole show - I would be enclined to agree with you. The original 10-20 minute piece was great. We take a crowd of kids in a display troupe and do anything from 10 minutes to 40 minutes. The variety being provided with the difference in standards in the kids - no kid to much of a beginner to join in - no kid too much of an expert not to know their place in the display. Saying that the original Riverdance show did include other forms of dance such as Flamenco and Tap dancing so we could all play spot the differences and similarities. It was the later shows where this was lacking. What riverdance never did was become a show case for all forms of traditional dancing from Ireland. In fact, as an aside - many traditionalists were worried because after Riverdance there was a tendancy for displays to include dancing with hands on hips and they limited themselves to music from the shows. As I said before Riverdance was fine but it became the be all end all of things.

Ps Irish dancing does wonders for children's posture but does their knees no good at all. If they play statues ( a game where they freeze suddenly and don't move) they all drop their arms to their sides before they freeze.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Fortunato
Date: 22 May 00 - 11:26 AM

Out our way there are parents who bring their children, fledgling step dancers, to the Irish sessions in our local pub. It seemed a grand idea for the first minute or two. Lovely, I thought, children, girls AND BOYS, learning a traditional art. The actuality was a cacophony of loud, off beat, drop beat, rhythms that completely destroyed the music of the session. Beaming parents looked on while musicians struggled to hold the tempos and hear the tunes over the tap shoes on plyboard. I have not been back and will not be. What ogre could call down these lovely children dancing? The session is ruined. Would you bring your elementry school trumpet player to a jam session?

Oh. Riverdance is obviously responsible. Grumpily yours, Fortunato.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 11:48 AM

Fortunato - you have my sympathy. I readily admit that the sound of heavy shoe dancing not done well is dreadful. I have come back from beginners competitions with the most fightful headaches. If it happens again - try and get them to dance only to reels in light shoes ( doen't work so well for the boys) or perhaps put aside a small part of the evening for a little display. Some parents can't see any problem and i must admit sometimes its difficult to some kids to stop dancing.

All the best

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:56 PM

Julie, I'm glad you described that hanging in the air appearance, which I saw in a snatch of a Gay Burne show on TV, and haven't seen since. As they only showed the legs at that point, I couldn't be sure if it was due to the camera tracking, or real. And I had forgotten the arms when I tried to explain it to myself, with centres of gravity and so on. The only way I could think of through physics was for arms to be raised on the up, and then lowered rapidly to lower the centre of gravity at the beginning of the down, thus allowing descent without the feet going down for a moment. And you have removed that small hold on science. Back to the drawing board.

Penny

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 04:08 PM

Penny -its to do with moving forward and jumping up at the same time. Most of the dancers jump forward rather than continue moving and just jump up. Some very nearly get it - but only the very best seem to hover. I sad to say, given a wide science and engineering background I haven't got a clue about the science of it. It may even be an optical illusion.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Peg
Date: 22 May 00 - 04:35 PM

saw it is Boston minus Jeanne Butler and Michael Flatley; and from seats quite far away...still it was exciting to be in the room with such skilled dancers...I love all of the music, too and found the choral stuff by Anuna just as great as the rest, and really enjoyed the Spanish dancer and the piece with the young black male dancers competing with the Irish lads...

When the company was in residence for their run in Boston I ran into some of them one night in the Burren (they had been heloing film a video apparently) and a couple of the young women were kind of trashed...it was a Monday and the set dancing was going on in the front of the bar...a couple of the dancers started dancing in a very suggestive yet drunken way, playing at being strippers it looked like (I should know :))...honestly, they were really just acting like the same drunken sluts (and perhaps they were--same trashy overdone makeup and tight clothes) you'd see in any bar any night of the week, except maybe more graceful, but then that was only two or three girls out of a company of dozens of dancers...they seemed to be having fun at any rate...it was just very odd and funny to see these dancers whom half the world idolized just cutting loose in the pub!

peg

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 May 00 - 06:02 PM

I think Riverdance will be the starting point for a lot of adults and children who will eventually explore the traditional music and dance of Ireland. Just like the Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary got a lot of US interested in traditional forms of American music. Many of us started there and went on to other "hipper" performers. Riverdance is not my cup of tea - I'd rather be at an Altan concert myself - but if it promotes interest in this genre then I'm all for it.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:01 AM

I enjoyed it very much. It set out to be good entertainment and it was that in a very powerful way. I don't think there is much that has been as succesful at that level. Is it Irish traditional music...no...is it great fun yes.....

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 00 - 10:02 AM

I liked it well enough. Didn't see Lord of the Pants and didn't care for Feet of Flames. Don't care much for Flatley, period. I concede he is good at what he does.... but so does he.

I prefer to watch soft-shoe dancing myself. Hard-shoe is really cool for about five minutes, like a drum solo. :)

Now, me and Mister, and probably a goodly number of you all, were Celtic when Celtic wasn't cool. So on one hand, I'm thinking, where were all you people years ago? We've been enjoying this stuff for a long time. On the other hand -- and I think someone else mentioned this already -- it did introduce Celtic music and dance to a new audience. Maybe some of those folks have been/will be inspired to do a little research and learn what it's Really All About.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:52 PM

Thanks Julie, again. There's part of me that doesn't want the physics, anyway, it wants the magic. And I thought I was going to get it from Flatley, and the moment I saw him enter, I knew I wasn't.

I really liked the trading taps piece, because the dancers seemed to be having fun rather than showing off, though I know the idea was exactly that.

Penny

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:51 AM

I'm a fan of Riverdance. Irish music has gone through so many changes, with modernistic things happening to it, such as bringing in piano accompaniment since, when, the 1920's? With the Sean O'Riada arrangements in the early 60's, Johnny Moynihan bringing in the Bouzouki in the late 60's, Planxty and the Bothy Band bringing in rock rhythms in the 70's. With Riverdance, it's Irish step dancing's turn to explore the boundaries and take it to new areas. Admittedly, Riverdance doesn't have the same traditional sensibilities as those bands did, and the composed music should never be confused with the Bothies, but it is interesting to see Irish step dancing serve as a base for this show, and to see it go out and take different forms. I share the fear that Riverdance may become a standard by which the uninitiated will judge Irish music and dance performances, and that would not be a good thing. But, some people inevitably will do that, what can you do? I enjoy Riverdance for what it is. The new Broadway production, by the way, has a tremendously talented young fiddler, Athena Tergis. Haven't seen the Broadway production myself, but have heard Tergis at many a pub gig, session, and concert. Hopefully she'll do a solo recording soon.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:29 AM

Of course it is good. I don't believe the show ever set out to be all things Irish. It simply was meant to showcase an aspect of our culture and show what is unique to this form. And through the use of guests from other cultures it also demonstrates the common ties between us all. I saw the original US tour with Butler et al and the most recent tour. I was greatly entertained both times.

With regard to Flatley, I remember him when he danced the Feisanna and gatherings around Chicago. He had an overblown sense of himself then, and it has gotten worse. Hey Michael, it's about the dance, not about you. But there is no denying the man's talent and his drive. But I believe there are many dancers out there who are his equal, and Colin Dunne is the first one that comes to mind.

Parting comment. Why does it always come down to who is more Irish?? I was raised in a household where Irish was spoken by my Grandparents and some Aunts/Uncles, and friends of them. Gatherings often included dancing the sets (a little of the heel and toe), singing the songs, and playing the tunes. I guess I qualify as someone steeped in the traditions, but I only count myself as being fortunate for that. Not more "celtic" than anyone else. I love anything that causes more people to be exposed to our wonderful heritage, and anyone who is interested. Riverdance surely qualifies in that.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Callie
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:42 AM

I don't watch a lot of tv, so besides hearing about it, I have missed most of the fuss.

However, a funny story: In 1995 I was in Dublin in a large record store. There were two CDs attached to headphones so you could listen before buying. There was a sign above the CDs: "Destined for International Success" and the 2 CDs were Riverdance and A River of Sound. I listened to both of them and in comparison, didn't like Riverdance at all. At that point I knew nothing about it and was taking it on face (ear) value. I bought the OTHER CD as I found it immediately appealing. Now, has anyone else in the world besides myself heard of "River of SOund"? I feel a bit like the folks who bought Beta video players. Except that the CD is fantastic!

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 24 May 00 - 03:34 AM

Yes Callie I have the River of Sound CD and video,there was a T.V. series of that name based on the premise that Irish music is an everchanging all encompassing thing like a river, picking up things as it flows and so as a traditional music keeps alive by this vital componant.,br> I thought It was and is a good album and be assured is far better than beta.
You were no silly sausage in buying it but I still think Riverdance is worth a listen or two>
Spider Tom

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:28 AM

I agree about the River of Sound video - other than the music which is wonderful, there is a marvelous sequence where a dancer moves from different step dancing styles by addding syncopation. It is probably one of my favourite dance clips.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:30 AM

Yes and he is no primadonna.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Psaltry Psue
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:35 AM

Good! True it's not the most trad of all Irish dance but how many people would spend money to see that?

Besides - all the dancer spent years taking lessons - now they are getting paid & and that is a good thing.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:16 AM

Alison said.

"I remember the first time I saw them perform the actual "riverdance" bit itself on the Eurovision song contest....it was wonderful (or maybe I was homesick sitting here in Oz).. brought tears to the eyes, and a lump to the throat..... Jean Butler was just wonderful...... and Michael Flatley was amazing...."

.

I think this says it really….. It has been a few years now, since that night and we are all viewing it with the benefit of hindsight. There was BR (before Riverdance) and AR (after Riverdance). Now that it exists the cynics and the critics can knock it and quibble but the collective effort and vision that exploded, on that night, was indeed "just wonderful".

I don't think that it had much to do with being "homesick", I know many others also had the tears. I don't know why I was sitting through The Eurovision thing, that night but I am so glad that I was. After having three hours or so of prime TV time devoted to the sad stuff that this contest produces, there it was. Real communication, that all the watching countries with all their languages could instantly enjoy.

I had hoped that Riverdance would change popular music, like Eurovision forever. Unfortunately popular music seems to have changed Riverdance, or at least reduced it's best (folk) elements.

But they can't take that moment away. It may not have been perfect, but it was pretty damn close.

'River Of Sound' is well worth getting too.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Hilary, Hamilton, New Zealand
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:43 AM

Yes, Riverdance came to the ends of the earth, danced, conquered...spawned pools of little antipodean irish dancers here too. But can anybody tell me ...what has happened to Michael Flatley???

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:51 AM

Hilary, as far as I know Michael Flatley still has his own show, Lord of the Dance. Wasn't he involved in some lawsuit or other dispute? I don't follow these things too closely.
I certainly did enjoy the Riverdance that was done as an extra feature during the Eurovision broadcast from Ireland. This was not in the context of "traditional" music! I didn't like Jean Butler and others doing a dance scene in the pub in the film "The Brylcreme Boys" as it was so anachronistic and out of place. The film takes place in the early 1940s and is about allied and Nazi Prisoners of War in Ireland. I enjoyed the film, but it is supposed to be based on real events and that dance scene made me wonder how many other distortions were in the story!