Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Peg
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:17 AM

interesting observation, Bagpuss. It has certainly only been men who have executed abortion providers in the USA. I was involved with the animal rights movement some years ago but did not observe any violence firsthand (though I know it occurs).

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:21 PM

Most of the riot police at the Quebec Protest were men. The fence was erected by men at the order of men, with the support of some women.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief)
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:28 PM

According to Grab, 25 years ago, "The Israelis and Palestinians had just finished the October War and were busy with border conflicts."

Perhaps, Grab, you should check the history before revising them.

I would presume that you are referring to the Yom Kippur War of 1973, almost 28 years ago.

The war was not with the Palestinians. On Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year, Israel was surprise-attacked by the combined armies of Egypt and Syria with additional units from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Sudan, Lebanon and Morocco.

The Palestinians had not yet emerged as a viable political or military unit (although Arafat's PLO was engaged in school bus bombings and airplane hijackings).

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:50 PM

It's my understanding that the term "fundamentalism" comes from a series of pamphlets called "The Fundamentals," which were published by the American Bible League in the early 1900's. An article in the Encyclopedia Britannica (click) seems to confirm that. Properly, the term refers to extreme conservatives among American Protestants, but the term has been used to describe extreme conservatives in many different religions.

I'm a churchgoing Catholic with a Theology degree from a Catholic seminary, and I guess I'd say that I firmly believe that abortion is never a good thing - but sometimes it's a lot better than the alternatives. I think that qualifies me as a "moderate" on the issue, doesn't it? There are many Catholic lay people who would have me excommunicated for holding such a view - but I know very few Catholic clergy who would condemn me for this position.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Peg
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM

very progressive view, Joe.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 01:14 PM

I would be interested to know, Joe, what alternatives you are referring to.

I am pro-choice myself, and I was most interested learning that it is your belief that most Catholic clergy you know would agree with your point of view.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for the Britannica post, Joe. That was very enlightening.

What has me shaking my head over Christian fundamentalists is that for people who maintain that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, most of them know very little about the Bible, notwithstanding that many of them read it and quote it incessantly. It's as if they've taken a thick pack of cards, put a single Bible verse on each card, then shuffled them thoroughly. When they whip out a Bible verse in an attempt to support a point, more often than not it doesn't mean what they're trying to say it means. Pull out a Bible, find the verse they are quoting (usually they can tell you which book and chapter it's in), read the whole chapter to them, and suddenly they're completely flummoxed. Putting the verse into context and pointing out what it really says blows their whole argument.

I love torturing fundamentalists that way. They give Christians a bad name.

I've never read the Koran and I know zip about the Muslim religion, but I've heard that Muslim fundamentalists are pretty much the same way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: GUEST,norah s
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM

Back on 10-Jun-01 at 09:33 PM, Dicho said: "Not all fundamentalists force their views on others."

I was brought up by fundamentalist Protestant parents (all comforting pats on my shoulder accepted) who forced their views on me and called it "raising up a child in the way that (s)he should go". I was carefully taught by my folks and by their church to force my (excuse me; THEIR) views on others: my father advised me that I should not speak to any non-Christians except to witness to them. I could relate even more horrible anecdotes, but I'm sure you'd all like to sleep tonight. Maybe there ARE fundamentalists who don't force their views on others, but I think it's against their religion.

Now, at 45, I've deprogrammed myself to the extent of being an agnostic. I don't know if there's a God, but I sure don't believe in Christians! So, Don, you're right; fundamentalists DO give Christians a bad name. My upbringing has scrambled my brain for life, but I still try to listen to different points of view, think on them and leave myself open to the possibility of changing my opinion on most issues — is that moderate? — something that fundamentalist Christians don't seem to be allowed to do (since they're discouraged from respecting themselves enough to do their own thinking... I certainly was).

norah s

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:40 PM

Woe! Woe unto them that forceth their religion down the throats of others! A plague of locusts and horny toads and --um-- nasty snakes with long, pointy teeth shalt descend upon them, yea verily, nibbling and biting and otherwise making their days unpleasant! They shall walk but not get anywhere, and all the phone booths shall be broken when their cars break down on the one day they leaveth their cell phones at home! Fungus shalt grow between their toes, and their hair shalt not have a smooth, bouncy feel, no matter which shampoo they do use! Their yogurt shalt go bad in the carton on the way home, and their bodily hair shalt grow faster than they are able to shave it off! Beware, oh generation of obnoxious and unfriendly fundamentalist-types! The nails of thy fingers shalt ship and break, yea, even right before thy big date on Saturday night. Thy children shalt grow up to hate thee, and even when they doth call, it shalt be collect. Thy grass shalt have any number of weeds therein, and thy windows shalt leak in the winter and refuseth to close in the driving summer rains that doth fall from yonder sky.

Alex

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:45 PM

I just read again, Marty's original posting, and I guess we have strayed a bit.

Marty, you were concerned, I believe, about the extreme fundamentalists position's as they related to the "Troubles" in Ireland and between the Jews and the Palestinians. You wondered why there weren't more people who could take a moderate positon on those subjects. Again, I ask, what would that position be? I'm not trying to incite anything, and I'm not inviting flamers, but I'd really like to know what the moderate postion on those two issues would be.

Kendall? Alex? L. H.? Peg? Spaw? Anyone?

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM

Not sure about Northern Ireland. A moderate position in the Levant might be, "Both the Jews and the Palestinians deserve to live in peace in their own homeland in the Holy Land."

Alex

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:41 AM

Makes sense to me, Alex. Too bad it doesn't to them.

Subject: Religion and abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:57 PM

Doug - I suppose going further into the topic of abortion leads us away from the main topic of this thread, but I think I need to clarify something. I said that few Catholic clergy would condemn me for my moderate views on abortion - but I don't think many would agree with me. There's a big difference.
Even though they may oppose abortion, I think that many Catholic clergy do not feel compelled to condemn a woman who has had an abortion. Many see it as an opportunity for healing and reconciliation, not condemnation (although I'm sure there are also hundreds of instances of priests pointing a finger of condemnation - I don't tend to respect that sort of priest).

As for the less-desirable "alternatives" to abortion I was talking about, I'd include unsafe and illegal abortion, and giving birth to an unwanted child in a situation where adoption is not likely. I have a close friend who had two abortions many years ago, before she was married, because she did not think it was a good time in her life to raise a child and because she was in a relationship with a partner who was not interested in supporting her during a pregnancy. I have to say I feel regret about her abortions. Did she make a morally correct decision? I dunno, but I do wish the abortions hadn't happened. Still, I think the decision was hers to make. My job is to be her friend, not to condemn her for something that happened long ago.

As for fundamentalists and all that, I think we all tend to categorize people and to miss the nuances that make them individuals. You know, I think you could say that most of the bad conduct people attribute to stereotypical fundamentalist preachers, could also describe the conduct of Martin Luther King. I think King was a saint, despite his faults.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Stevangelist
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

Fundamentalist... I believe an approximate definition would be a person who holds to absolute rigidity or unmoving devotion to their particular position...

Let someone break into your house and try to hurt or kill you or your loved ones. All of a sudden this 'live and let live' shit goes right out the window as you either prosecute the sucker in court or you lock and load with the intent to blow them away.

Anyone who would go to those lengths to protect their family is a fundamentalist in the sense of their fundamental desire to keep their personal freedom and safety in the face of danger. Would anyone dare say 'yucch' to that? I think not.

Stevangelist

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 07:17 PM

Thanks, Joe. I apprecaite your thoughts.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM

stevangelist....your post seems to me to contain the fallacy of equivocation ..a logical error which means you shifted the sense in which the word is used during the discussion.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: marty D
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:24 PM

Doug said

"I just read again, Marty's original posting, and I guess we have strayed a bit.

"Marty, you were concerned, I believe, about the extreme fundamentalists position's as they related to the "Troubles" in Ireland and between the Jews and the Palestinians. You wondered why there weren't more people who could take a moderate positon on those subjects."

Thanks Doug. Yes that is what I was feeling, and I certainly was emotional when I wrote it. To me a moderate is not neccessarily one with moderate opinions on all issues, just someone that doesn't allow their ideology to cloud ALL issues. I'm a Democrat, but I'm not afraid to speak out when they act abominably. I value my religion, but when it's leaders act strategically rather than logically, I'll complain. My views are wide ranging but they're mine. I won't follow a party line.

marty

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:29 PM

I think your original post was just fine, Marty. Moderation is normally a sign of intelligence, not weakness...still we probably all have some things we are immoderate about at certain times, and we may well be justified in that...sometimes...like in the case of the guy breaking into your house, as suggested above, although I don't consider that a very apt example on which to discuss your point.

I can be immoderate on occasion. For instance...having seen E.T.V.'s (commonly called UFO's) and having utterly no doubt about it...I have developed a somewhat immoderate response to people who categorically deny the existence of such vehicles (and their occupants), presumeably on no more basis than that they have never seen one, and therefore it must not be true or I must be mistaken in what I saw! I get REALLY angry about it, and I become immoderate at times. The utter sublime arrogance of people's conventional ignorance can be downright f*cking amazing when it comes to this sort of thing. Not that I expect them necessarily to believe me without question...just to consider the possibility that there might be something out there that they don't already know all about....

So, we are all immoderate on certain occasions, but I think a true extremist or fundamentalist is someone whom you could say is pretty much immoderate all the time...or just about all the time...and completely unwilling to see the other guy's viewpoint.

So, yeah, I think your thread is a good one. Here's to moderation and forgiveness and mutual understanding. Peace be upon you.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 08:17 PM

I often am so impressed with what a remarkable bunch we are here, Joe Offer always strikes me as a complex and deep thinking fellow, Bagpuss - gentle in the way we disagree and not at all like the anti choice terrorists that we see in the states... But two observations... I have never seen a fundementalist who actually FOLLOWED the quite clear word of the Bible on abortion (Nubers 5 - 11 I believe off the top of my head) which is in favor of cooersive abortion if you SUSPECT your wife of infidelity! And observation # 2... Peg... a thought for the inpending CD you are to do at Hearthside.... Can we have a photo of Rev. Falwell and your offer for the CD cover? (No harm intended to well meaning folks who may be offended by that, but JEEzE how can you pass up that immage!!!)
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:26 PM

LOL!

- LH

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 11:44 PM

Interesting point about having seen a UFO LH, and therefore having a "fundamentalist belief" in them while the majority might call you a crank. Point well taken. I don't have anything to add at the moment.....just... good point.

Rick

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From:
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:25 AM

I am a Catholic and I have never heard that women need to be subjugated to men. In fact, my experience has been that men were pretty subjucated to women. Abortion was a separate issue entirely. mg

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:42 AM

A very real problem for centrists is that the centre keeps moving.

How many years do we have to go back to when a "moderate" on racial issues was "someone who treated his slaves better than average".

In my lifetime there has been a remarkable shift on the race issue, so that a person whose basically "moderate" views were formed, say, thirty or forty years ago would have great difficulty in maintaining those views today - witness the current "friends/racists" thread. So who is the extremist and who is the moderate?

Similarly, it used to be possible to hold and voice what were perceived as "moderate" views on all the hot issues (including gypsies/travellers!) without some folkie stereotype jumping on your head. Yes, of course we have to move with the times, but who gets to decide how fast?

I agree with marty D, death (a moderate death) to all extremists!!

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM

Discussing in a moderate - unaggressive and receptive - way is always right. But holding to what is seen as a moderate view on any subject can just mean that you are falling in line with whatever terrible thing happens to be fashionable at the time - as with Terry K's examples.

In most conflicts it's true to say that both sides are to some extent at fault. But that isn't the same as saying that both sides are equally in the wrong, and a "moderation" that insisted in all circumstances on asserting that could seriously distort the truth.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:56 PM

Good thoughts there, Terry K. I would like to add a little humorous aside here, which is as follows...

I am violently opposed to capital punishment, and I think that all those in favor of it ought to be shot! :-) Give 'em their own medicine, I say! (And after that, declare a permanent moratorium, of course...) This simple remedy would reduce the world's population substantially (at least half of them, I figure), and human and natural conditions would be greatly improved, I should think...

(I hope you all noticed the :-)...)

-LH