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Significance of left shoulder
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Subject: Significance of left shoulder From: Julia Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:51 PM Does anyone know the significance of the "left shoulder"- I know it is part of the death sentence as in "the judge looked over his left shoulder", but why the LEFT shoulder, and does this connect at all with the tradition of throwing a pinch of salt over the left shoulder to avert bad luck? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:57 PM Some occult or spiritual traditions assert that "death" is a companion that stands behind your left shoulder, like a watching spirit presence. I suspect it has to do with that. I believe there was some stuff in the Castaneda books about that, but I'm not quite sure. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM personally, i never much thought there was any significance in my left shoulder....except to hold my left arm.....which holds my backup beatoff tool.... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM Oh, get a grip on yourself, for heaven's sake! We're discussing serious stuff here. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:12 PM That's true Hawk, but it never quite goes that way, now do it? I have heard the same thing as you have Hawk and much as I hate to agree........... Of course that doesn't explain why it's always the "left nut" does it? No one seems willing to offer up the right nut. It's always, "I'd give my left nut to __________." Fill in the blank with whatever you desire. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:26 PM Yeah, the thing about the left nut is weird. Every joke about it, it's always the left nut that ends up in Brazil, or down the meat grinder or whatever. It's sinister, that's what it is! Gotta be a liberal commie plot of some kind... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:30 PM Just try it; if you're right-handed, it's easier to look over your left shoulder (and to throw things over it) than your right. There could be more to it, of course, but the simplest explanation is often the most likely. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:33 PM And if you're right handed it's the left nut that takes the beating, eh Makcolm? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Áine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:40 PM Not knowing much about 'nuts' (other than sometimes I like 'em, sometimes I don't . . . ), but, being right-handed, if I had to sacrifice an equivalent bit of my body (one of those 'bits' being on my torso, of course), I'd rather it be the left one, since it's the smaller of the two . . . However, for the ambidextrous (of either sex), this must be quite a quandry, eh? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:42 PM So you would sacrifice your left nut, aine? does Dear Hubby know about this? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Áine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM Ach, my dearest, oldest, most creaky Amergin -- ;-) -- Á. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:56 PM Uh.....'Gin Boy? Now look here young 'un.........If you don't start actin' like ya' got good sense, I'm gonna' quit plugging that song of yours on everythread I get a chance to. I've copied it about a half dozen times, but iffen ya' don't straighten out I'm gonna' stop it and also whack you a good 'un. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:12 PM Malcolm - it isn't necessarily true that the simplest explanation is, however, the ONLY explanation, but that it may be the most obvious or the surface aspect of something that can be explained on a number of different levels...all of which are integrated. You follow? My model of the Universe says that things aren't isolated from each other, but all mutually involved at the same time. Yours is the physical viewpoint. Mine was the metaphysical viewpoint. Why should either invalidate the other? Or claim exclusivity for itself? This is precisely why there is no reason whatsoever for the scientific mind to necessarily be at loggerheads with the spiritualist, the religionist, or the philosopher...providing they all keep an open and inquiring attitude toward life, and combine their various talents. The direction "left" has always been associated with the mysterious or hidden (occult) aspects of life...the non-physical...while the direction "right" has been associated with the outward tactile aspects of life...the physical. And that supports both your position and mine. Physical things are WAY more obvious, and easier to "grasp" (one might say) than non-physical things, so you're right....it IS easier to throw salt over one's left shoulder...for most people. This doesn't necessarily invalidate a spiritual aspect to the situation, which is reflected in the physical structure of the body. Most spiritual traditions assert that the body is built (and maintained until physical death) by the intelligent, constant, and purposeful action of spirit, and that the body's form is a reflection of the spirit that creates it, and envelopes it. Indeed, if spirit exists, how could it be otherwise? - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:15 PM Well, it could just be that the right handed, in dominant males, and in the majority, happens to have established that its the left nut that takes the beating, and therefore -- well, all else flows from that!! It's simple, direct and obvious logic, LH!! Put yore gumbo away! A |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:22 PM You're not turning Republican on us are you, Amos? :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:27 PM Back to the song, and the judge's left shoulder, I'm not so sure that it's more involved than that the judge takes the whole thing lightly, is already on his way out the door, and tosses off a sentence en passant, as it were. In this reading the "left" is merely there to fill in the line, and to give a visual appeal to the song. Could have been the right shoulder just as easily, if that's the case. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 PM Yeah, only it sounds better to say "left"...and why is that? Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo...(spooky music) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Mark Cohen Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 PM Well, since I don't know the song, I obviously qualify as an expert. My understanding of the "salt over the shoulder" is that people believed they had a good spirit sitting on (or behind) their right shoulder and an evil sprit on the left. Since salt was considered a luxury (cf. the word "salary" -- Roman soldiers were paid in salt), spilling it was a bad thing to do. It was thus necessary to appease the bad spirit by offering him/her/it some of the valuable salt. Of course, that begs the question of why the bad spirit was on the left and not on the right. I suspect that people in times past might have felt that there was "something wrong" with their non-dominant (usually, left) hand. It looks just as strong and healthy as the other one, but it just doesn't work the same way. It wouldn't be surprising if they thought there might be some bad spirit preventing that hand from doing what it might otherwise be capable of. Hence, we have the "evil" connotation of the word "sinister", which in its original literal meaning simply refers to the left side. It would then make sense, if one were coining a phrase with a somewhat "sinister" tone, to choose left over right, if both were equally applicable. That is to say, the judge seems a bit more threatening if he's looking over his left shoulder rather than his right. It's a small "toss-off" point, but that's what good folk songs and poems are made from. Thank you, Mudcat, for giving us closet polymaths a forum for trotting out these wonderful theories of life, the universe, and everything! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: sophocleese Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:57 PM Geez, LH not spooky music, 'sinister' music. I'm trying to remember all sorts of things about sinister. Dance: women dances or moon dances are alleged to go to the left while men dances or sun dances go to the right. I;m not sure how much of this was actually true 1000 or more years ago but its touted as being so. Widdershins is against the sun or opposite to the sun and might land you in fairyland or the other world There is some nasty cultural baggage around the issues of left-handedness. It becomes associated with the devil etc. Of course if you're a goalie used to taking kicks from the right foot a left footed player is going to catch you out at first and that might seem sneaky to you...I gotta cut back on the painkillers. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:21 PM The boys seem to have dropped their nuts while I was away, for which we should all be properly grateful. Little Hawk: I'm not for a moment suggesting that the obvious answer is the only one; merely that it should always be considered first, before one becomes embroiled in deeper and more problematic speculation. When it comes to the old songs, people always seem to want an answer that is as complicated as possible, often investing the most ordinary things with a numen quite inappropriate to their actual significance. I'm well aware of the folkloric significance of the left side, having studied such things myself, but I do feel obliged to be devil's advocate in many of these discussions, if only to ensure some kind of balance. I certainly claim no exclusivity for the point I made; there may well be a spiritual significance to the gesture in this case, but it would certainly be a mistake to suggest that there must be, simply because it is possible, just as I would have been wrong if I had suggested that there couldn't be, simply because it was less likely on the face of it than the prosaic, but reasonable (empirically speaking) possibility that I mentioned. In fact, as I expect you know, people are forever looking over their left shoulders in traditional song, sometimes in situations where some additional significance might reasonably be assigned to the action, sometimes not; I am not aware of a single instance of anybody looking over their right shoulder, as it happens, which suggests to me that we're looking at an oral-formulaic construction which does not necessarily have any particular significance at all, beyond its familiarity as a narrative device. Which, in deference to Metaphysics, of which I have always been rather fond, is not to say that you are wrong or that I am right; merely that, while there is always more than one way of skinning a cat, it generally makes sense to consider, to begin with, the easiest option. Malcolm Interval over. Anybody wishing to get back to their nuts, now, feel free. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Lorraine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:37 PM My mom always said throw the pinch of salt over your left shoulder to blind the devil -more support for evil, sinister school. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:56 AM It may also have a little to do with the fact that when you have a stroke or heart attack, the first pains are usually in your left side. I don't know why, it just is. Right brained people (i.e., left handed) recover motor function more often and better than left brained (i.e., right handed) people after a stroke or heart attack. If you were superstitious enough to believe you had a good and evil spirit, would it not be logical to connect the evil spirit with the pains of a stroke? Thus making the left side, as the first to be affected, the side where the evil spirit is grabbing you. I'm at least 3rd generation left handed, and my daughter is the 4th generation. And very proud of being so. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Sourdough Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:40 AM I think we could apply Ocam's razor to this discussion of nuts (now there is a sharp metaphor): It seems to me that metaphysical statements often are explanations of observed physical phenomona, what one brilliant anthropologist refered to as attempts to "explain the inexplicable". When we consider most people to be right handed, at a time when hand-held weapons were for beating, slicing or sticking, the danger would come more readily from the harder to defend left side. From there, it is easy to see how "left" could become symbolic. I don't think anyone would regard it as accidental that Leonardo d.Vinci placed Judas to the left of Jesus. He was picking up on a tradition that was so old that it was already embedded in the Romance languages as "sinister" and "dexter" - left and right.
As I was writing, I remembered another example of a "left shouldered song": As I recall, there is a verse towards the end of Queen Eleanor's Confession that draws on the left shoulder tradition.
"The king looked o'er his left shoulder Having sharpened Ocam's Razor and possibly malquoted Malinowski on metaphysics, I also have an urge to remind myself of the old Freudian quote: "Sometimes a telephone pole is just a telephone pole". Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:46 AM spaw...you never let me have any fun...think i'll go pout now... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Ralphie Date: 07 Jul 01 - 03:11 AM I don't know if I should bring up the connected molecules of Racemic acid, and Tartaric acid.....the former being dextrorotatory,(polarizing light in a clockwise direction) and the latter, being levorotatory (anti-clockwise)....Even molecules have this ID crisis! Or should I mention that 668 is the "Neighbour of the Beast" Or....should I just get me coat........Ralphie ! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Micca Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:01 AM Ralphie, to be a pedantic Chemist,Racemic is a a mixture of Left(L-) and Right(D+) rotatory molecules and therefore shows NO rotation but has the chemical props of the Tartaric acid, (You can seperate the crystals of D and L Tartaric with tweezers as the they are distinctly different) The other part of the Dexter and sinister mystical argument is to do with the left being the mirror image of the right and brings in the atavistic and sinister "alter ego in the mirror" that looks the same but is left handed (in a predominantly right handed world)and may be the "darker" side of the person looking. In some circles when receiving gifts, or magical objects that one is uncertain of the provenance of, the gift/object is recieved and taken in the left hand so as to limit the access of its energies to the recipient, as the left is regarded as the more controlled, less open and accessable area of the recipients body and energy (and of course V/V for left handers). |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: GUEST,IanC at British Library Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:43 AM I think the answer's in the Latin. That's what I was taught anyway. Left = Sinistre, which became Sinister in English.
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:45 AM Well, for those who are taking this discussion seriously I think we need to consider the history of left and right. What do we know about the Romans and Greeks and their perception of left and right and good and evil. It was the Romans who gave us "sinister" and "dexter". Did they attach any significance to these words? Did "sinister" (or the latin basis of the word) have any sinister meanings attached to it? (These are serious questions. I don't know the answer.) Mark, I like your explanation of the Devil interfering with the operation of the left hand. It brings to mind a basis for the prejudice against left handedness. I imagine a whole prejudice against lefties because they were closer to the Devil. Even in recent years (relatively) the prejudice existed. I remember the school teachers trying to force lefties to write with their right hands. My middle sister is a leftie and went through that for a short time. I also like Sourdough's addition. Fighting a leftie is a pain in the ass. I know from my years in the SCA. It takes a whole different strategy. Suddenly your shield is in your way and the blows are coming from the wrong direction. And your opponent is used to fighting right handed opponents! In a day and age when "God is on my side!" a leftie would seem to be in league with the Devil. Oh, and for those who are not taking it seriously, would any of you be willing to sacrifice your left nut in the interests of science? I figure the removal of the Devil oriented nut would make you perfect angels. *BG* |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:26 AM I dunno' Brett.......The left nut thing maybe sounds humorous, but it is another of the "left" things and does fall into the category. I suppose that the right-handed world" theory has much credibility as does Ian's Latin translation, probably based on the same right handed world idea. Again, the devil to the left shows the same prejudice so I'm becoming more sold by the minute on the RHW theory. As to your "Perfect Angel"...........Is it possible they all only have a right nut? Is there some repository for the left?
St.Peter:Welcome to the Pearly Gates of Heaven! Sign the log and drop your left nut or boob in the can on the right. Wing fittings are through door 2R. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM Perhaps its because the "Accused" sits on the left of the judge/court? Yours, Aye. Dave (pondering) |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:10 AM Could the "left=evil" bit possibly be related to the Christian (or Judeo-Christian?) tradition that the blessed stand at the right hand of God - or is that a result of the original left/right superstition?
By the bye, another Left/Right superstition for you. Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM All of the beliefs/superstitions put forth here are the result of the Right Hand World idea and the accompnying idea that left handed is "different." In older cultures this was probably viewed as evil/bad or just different and hence the best of things went right while the worst were left. Makes sense to me. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:41 AM Sinister/Dexter.. Latin words for left and right. The accused sits on the "sinister" side... an amazing word.. Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM LOL Spaw! Being willing to give up the left nut would presuppose it isn't as good as the right one. It is the result of this whole belief that left is wrong. Actually, since right handedness is dominant lefties would be "different" and therefore not good enough to be part of the tribe/family/community. I'm willing to bet this is the basis of the left=evil equation. By the way, the saying taught to beginning riders to remind them of which side of the horse to mount is "Left is right but right is wrong." |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Bill D Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM well...you all have hit about every possible answer...I am truly impressed! but...it's fascinating to see "Occam's razor" applied to his name! *grin* "Pluritas non est ponenda sine necessitate" therefore ONE 'c'.. *ducking before Sourdough throws a volume of Malinowski at me* |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM Malcolm - Good, thorough answer there, and well appreciated! Spaw - Actually, Angels don't have nuts at all. Why? Because an Angel embodies both the masculine and the feminine principles within itself, and doesn't require those organs, plus they are spirit beings of a type which don't engage in reproduction the way we do at all, hence no requirement for testicles. Some angels may appear superficially more masculine or more feminine at certain times, which mostly depends on which archetype they're making use of...at that certain time. This business of dividing up a species into male and female individuals and equipping them with specific physical parts accordingly is a system we take for granted, but it's not the only system out there. Don't ask me how I know this (or how I think I know it, if you prefer). My answer would not satisfy you in the least. :-) - LH
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM So, LH, does this mean the archangel Michael spends some of his time as Michelle? This could add a whole new perspective to the conservative religious arguments against sex changes! *grin* Ducking and running! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:26 PM Can I just point out here that Leonardo Da Vinci was left handed..... Michelangelo, Raphael, left handers. Half of the Beatles were lefties, as were Liberace, Picasso and there's a world reknowned concert pianist who has had a left handed Steinway concert grand made. And me. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:07 PM Hey, Liz - Well, of course "half of the Beatles were lefties"! Half of everyone is a lefty! Like, DUH..... :-) Hee! Hee! Amazing isn't it? Even people like Jesse Helms are half lefties! Even young Republicans are! Shocking! Something oughta be done about it. I remember once seeing this cartoon of Barrie Goldwater as a superhero...he flew a red, white, and blue airplane that had no left wing on it! Naemanson - Man, it is SOOOOO ironical that you should choose Michael for your joke! I'm not gonna explain why, but I will say this: I think that Angels tend to appear the way people expect them to appear, given the culture they have been raised in...accordingly, if you think they're gonna have wings, they do...if you don't, they don't. If you think Michael is masculine, that's the way he appears. If you had grown up in a matriarchal society in a different time and place, the reverse would probably be true. But if you look REALLY carefully, you will notice this in the Angel's face: you just can't quite pin it down, but there are both masculine and feminine qualities combined in a way that is subtle, and quite, quite mysterious, from a human perspective. Plus GREAT STRENGTH! I kid you not. Doesn't matter if you call the Angel "Michael" or "Michelle". God's like that too. Call Him/Her whatever you want. Not a problem. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM Wow, thanks, LH!!! Tell him we said hello, and appreciate Him bein' so liberal, like!! LOL. Would you object if we called you Little Pointy-Haired Priest? Or not? A |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:39 PM I'm tempted to take this farther but I think we'll leave it as originally intended, something that struck me as funny. I just had this vision of an angel, as s/he might have been painted by a rennaisence artist, shifting rapidly between genders. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:41 PM Say LH, since you seem to be pretty well informed about angels and all, I was wondering about the Cherabim and Seraphim and hoping you could tell me. One of them hangs from the ceiling and the other grows up from the floor, but I can't remember which is which. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM Spaw - Those are stalactites and stalagmites, aren't they? Those I have seen. Some even go all the way down...or up...ummm...well...they bridge between the floor and the ceiling. I don't know what you call them then. Then there are bats. They hang from the ceiling. Then there are hamsters. They rise up from the floor (when listening to strange sounds they are curious about...). Cherubim and Seraphim? Don't know. I haven't seen any. But I wouldn't doubt there is something to it, on some level or other...just don't have any definite opinion on that, based on practical experience. I regard Angels as non-denominational beings, despite the efforts of various religions to claim exclusivity in that regard...as in most regards. Amos - Hey, man, I don't have to tell Him. Or to put it another way, She already knows. :-) Guys...I am a mere student, nothing more...but I can speak of Angels at this point. Maybe I was just lucky. - LH
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:24 PM Little Hawk, "....Angels tend to appear the way people expect them to appear, given the culture they have been raised in...accordingly, if you think they're gonna have wings, they do...if you don't, they don't...." I can accept that, by why would anybody conceive of a seraphim having SIX wings? (...With twain he covered his face and with twain he covered his feet and with twain he did fly...). Confused Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:51 PM That's Seraph. Seraphim is the plural form. And why not six wings? Dragonflies have six, unless I'm confused. Anyway, it's just iconography... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Gareth Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM mounting Horses - which side ? And which side would the horsemans sword hang from assuming he was right handed. Wrong side and it don't half interfer with getting into the saddle. Digresion - tradition says that us Brits and Irish drive on the left hand side as a hangover from the days of yore when Knight would always approach each other sword arm (right) to sword arm (right). Does this mean that the rest of europe was more pacific ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:11 PM Dragonflies have four. My angel doesn't have any. And I for one would like to give 'Spaw credit...brilliant! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM Well, some of those insecty-type buggers have six wings, even if Dragonflies don't. Can anybody remember which ones? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:56 PM Hmmmm...well, it's all very intriguing isn't it? I have no idea whether Seraphim have 6 wings or not. I don't necessarily believe something just cos it's written in someone's holy scripture...I tend to go more by actual experience, and gut feeling, if said experience is lacking. I can't summon up any gut feeling on this seraphim business. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM Gareth, you mount a horse on the left side. If you are right handed your sword hangs on your left side. That way it is not in the way when you mount the horse. I guess left handed sword fighters mounted on the right but since they were all sinister and, therefore, in league with the Devil what they did hasn't come down through history to us. |
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