BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them

Subject: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM

It appears the Brexiteers, Trumpers and just about anyone else with a few quid has in fact been happily avoiding tax while us proles stump up. Far from being at one with the people, the likes of Ashcroft and Ross et al prove that both campaigns were a scam, no different to the usual bullshit and bluster; Brexiteers are still robbing us (see Gove's latest expenses claim) because they are thieves cowering under a cawl of 'legitimacy', protected by privilege.

Of course of interest to those of still suffering under the Norman Yoke is the fact that Brenda has been stuffing her (er, 'donated' under duress by her 'subjects') backsheesh into various dodgy businesses not least of which are predatory high-street usury specialists Brighthouse, a business that exploits the poor by playing on the feeling of 'missing out' and selling them tat a extortionate interest rates.

The hypocrisy of the monarchy is exposed after her she said in her 2016 Queen's speech that "legislation will be introduced to tackle corruption, money laundering and tax evasion."

So here we are. All the snouts are still in the trough, and it will ever be thus until we vote in a genuine anti-corporate, pro socially responsible capitalist government that stands up for the rights of the ordinary people, not liars, lickspittles and demagogues.

We get what we vote for.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

Brexiteers are still robbing us (see Gove's latest expenses claim) because they are thieves cowering under a cawl of 'legitimacy', protected by privilege.
I can just imagine Gove with a bowl of Welsh soup on his head. Perhaps you meant 'caul' or 'cowl'.

The hypocrisy of the monarchy is exposed after her she said in her 2016 Queen's speech that "legislation will be introduced to tackle corruption, money laundering and tax evasion."
Investing abroad is not a crime. The crime is investing abroad with the intention of defrauding the tax authorities. Outward investment supports other countries, and brings profits back to the UK.

We get what we vote for.
I don't think you voted for our monarch.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

1) My mistake, but works for me anyway.

2) Although nothing illegal has occurred, there is a moral issue here that warrants discussion.

3) Damn right. But we as a society voted for the present government, and they encourage this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM

"So here we are. All the snouts are still in the trough, and it will ever be thus until we vote in a genuine anti-corporate, pro socially responsible capitalist government that stands up for the rights of the ordinary people, not liars, lickspittles and demagogues"

A pro socialist capitalist government!!!! Now where the fuck are we gonna get one of these beasts?
Your political ignorance knows no bounds Stu, I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I thought that you had the idealism of youth on your side, but it appears that you are almost as old as the rest of us. I suppose some people just never grow up.

If you want a SOCIALIST government you must understand that there will be huge sacrifices to be made....you do not sound to me like someone who is prepared to make any sacrifices. Quite the reverse, you want all the goodies which capitalism provides to people in your sector of society....AND equality into the bargain.
Dream on chum!!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

I know nuance is not your thing Ake, but try to imagine a world where businesses are in integral part of our society and act in a responsible way that means not only do they make a profit and satisfy their shareholders, but they contribute in a positive way to a fair and equal society; they would be liable to sanction if they didn't act accordingly. Infrastructure would be taken back into public ownership as privatisation simply doesn't work for services that suffer when trying to turn a profit.

Absolutism is a symptom of a deficit of imagination, something you right-wing lot suffer from massively. There is no fixed system, it can be changed for the common good.

I'm not your chum.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:39 AM

Your political ignorance knows no bounds Stu

Amusing - or possibly sickening? - coming from Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

Sorry, I meant to put chump!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:43 PM

And you certainly have a vivid imagination if you think a capitalist system can be run efficiently within socialist principles.

Sorry, but socialism will come at a price it will not be pleasant, but it WILL be a necessity. It will support a survival economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM

can't see what Brexit has to do with people avoiding tax.

its two issues totally unrelated.

the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England. not even the people with a moral duty like the monarchy. so all the factories are being built in low wage economy countries like China.

mind you if the remainers had the extra tax money they would probably spend it on special marinas with mooring rights for Somali pirates on Thames and the Trent.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 03:25 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM
. . . the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England. not even the people with a moral duty like the monarchy. so all the factories are being built in low wage economy countries like China.
There's lots of investment in UK, including inward investment.
Many football clubs are owned by the rich overseas.
Many London properties are being bought by the super-rich in the Arab states.
The (second) Severn Bridge is/was owned and run by a French conglomerate.
The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations.

I'm sure if I delved deeply enough I'd find foreign investment in nearly every industry in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:20 AM

"It;s still us and them"........and Bono! I think the lad is a bit of a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:53 AM

Bono - ugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

Many football clubs are owned by the rich overseas.

Attracted by profit and the prestige of owning a premiership club. A nightmare, as anyone whose club is owned by absentee owners who meddle will tell you. This hasn't worked well for may clubs and the concentration of wealth in the premiership has proved a challenge for the lower league clubs who face rising player wage bills thanks to the idiotic wages being dished out in the premiership. As for the effect on the national team...

Many London properties are being bought by the super-rich in the Arab states.

Driving up prices, leaving them empty whilst locals are driven out by gentrification. Nowt good about this, plus on a recent trip to the smoke observed that many of these buildings are vulgar expressions of corporate and personal wealth and have no civic utility or respect for their surroundings. Ruining the city.


The (second) Severn Bridge is/was owned and run by a French conglomerate.

Who spend the money they make down Mrs. Jones' cockles and Laver bread shop no doubt, pumping it back into the local economy. Or not.


The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations.

Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

I wasn't defending any of those investments, I was responding to the comment:
. . the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

"Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness."

My My, Isn't it inconvenient when economic reality intrudes upon the "liberal" myth?

If we are to function as a serious trading nation, we must be free to trade with any country in the world, we also need to attract investment as does any other trading nation.
Only well heeled "liberals" can afford the luxury of picking and choosing according to their ideology.

Just keep boycotting MacDonalds, you cannot do much harm in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:22 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
"The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations."
Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness.

Not only do I not support the idea, I have made my thoughts known, although not in a single word dismissal.

SIR, The Hinkley Point power station is planned with Chinese investment and French management. This week we have read about threats to power stations in France from its trade unions. At a cost of 18 billion pounds, the Hinkley project would be better done in-house.

With government funding and British businesses undertaking the construction, the project should (eventually) be self-funding without the need to put an additional tariff on domestic fuel bills.

More secure power is needed as soon as possible. Let's not see this continually kicked into the long grass.

Telegraph letters, May 2016

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM

As I said on another thread, a new world order is being constructed, we must as a sovereign nation have input to this construction without the ideological shackles of the EU.
"liberal" democracy in in meltdown in Western Europe, it has visibly failed the populace......what is it to be replaced by.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM

Nigel: Apologies for my misunderstanding, and thanks for posting the letter. I had the impression from various commentators (none of whose names I remember) on the TV who were discussing the subject when Chinese involvement was first mooted there was some discomfort about letting them near our infrastructure, especially as they would require access to systems that had significance for national security.

Meanwhile, the revelations on Panorama about Apple and their discussions about democracy on the Isle of Man are pretty shocking, although the papers (erm, Grauniad at least) seem to gloss over this. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:14 AM

Order #: 1305335999
Company Name: W-C ARTCO
P.O. #: WEB1300079089

Absolutely! And the Illuminati, the Tri-Lateral Commission, and the "Deep State" are responsible.

Be very afraid.

Oh yeah - and maybe the Masons, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

Ah, this depressing article explains why Cameron did sod all about transparency, despite promising he would. Who'da thunk it? Tax haven lobby boasted of 'superb penetration' at top of UK government

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:06 PM

?can't see what Brexit has to do with people avoiding tax. its two issues totally unrelated.?

I?ve told you several times, Al - tax avoidance is the sole reason for BrexShit. It?s why the Tories are hell-bent on driving us over the cliff-edge of a ?Hard? Brexit - because it?s what their immensely-rich puppet-masters, some of whom are the owners of the gutter-press rags that spread the ?Take Back Control? and ?Regain Sovereignty? horse-shit to stir up the simple-minded, the xenophobes, and the ones who have a grievance because life dealt them a less-than-fantastic hand, and persuade them that it?s our membership of the EU that?s to blame for their unhappiness, have instructed them to do.

It?s got nothing to do with making life better for you or any of the other Brexshit-voters, and everything to do with those immensely-wealthy people avoiding being hit by the new Anti-Tax-Avoidance and Evasion Regulations being introduced in May, 2019. Why else do you think they are so hell-bent on leaving by the end of March, 2019? It?s not rocket-science.

They?ve made complete mugs of you, Ake, Pte. Parts, The Professor, and all the others trumpeting the BrexShit Propaganda they were so gullible and feeble-minded as to fall for.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM

And WTF are those question marks in place of the inverted commas I typed?
Fucking prehistoric Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM

Backwoodsman this country is being overrun by hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants, brought here annually by an economic policy based on keeping wages low and cutting training places for our own people......without Brexit we would be forced to accept any number of these people and the strain which they place on our infrastructure, for the foreseeable future.

That is the real purpose of Brexit, to put an end to unregulated immigration from the EU and take control of our borders and our laws.
That does not mean that there will be NO immigration but we shall decide the numbers and the quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

And on that note, my case rests, M?Lud.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:51 PM

this country is being overrun by hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants

And wogs begin at Calais.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM

Another over-privileged posh git acting without respect and with his chubby little fingers in the pie. Shameful. Paradise Papers: Prince Charles lobbied on climate policy after shares purchase

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:51 PM

What are Paradise Papers?

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:14 PM

"And on that note, my case rests, M?Lud."

That is neither witty nor humorous, and makes no attempt to address the points I made. Typical "liberal" left bullshit, do you seriously believe that the rates of immigration which pertained before Brexit were sustainable or beneficial?

Of course unregulated immigration is not the ONLY reason that the referendum was won, but it was a main driver, people even round this area were worried about the change in society, the lack of opportunity for school leavers, the dearth of apprenticeships as firms used agencies to provide cheap foreign labour.
I live in a quiet country area, I cannot imagine what it must be like for those in cities or housing estates.

Again I do not blame the immigrants our governments went along with "freedom of movement" as an economic policy designed to make a failing system, competitive. The victims were the workers made redundant in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:24 PM

They are millions of leaked documents, leaked to a German paper, which reveal a massive amount of tax avoidance by people and companies that are already as rich as Croesus and which reveal that our royal family is corrupt. Apart from that (so far), nothing to see here. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 02:31 AM

Ake, I have absolutely no intention of ?attempting to address? the points you made - I simply refer you back to my post of 7 Nov 17 - 02:06 PM.

Therein is my response. Though I?m not sure you have the intellectual wherewithal to recognise that you?ve been made a muggins.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM

To be honest BWM, I cannot make any sense to your post.
It appears to be more of a rant against exiting the EU.
I have no reason at all to believe that the EU have any intention of stamping down on tax evasion for the rich. If that is their intention, why has it taken so long to implement measures?


The EU is a capitalist cartel dedicated to enriching those who control it, it has no interest in the development of poorer nations, or it would never have thought up the parasitic wheeze of "free movement"

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:40 AM

Well why am I not surprised? After all, it's hardly the kind of thing that the Daily Heil makes a big noise about.

BTW, you claim 'I cannot make any sense of your post' - what were you doing during English Comprehension lessons when you were at school? Sucking on a Park Drive in the bike-shed?

Here you go...

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:17 AM

Thank God you said Park Drive. My mind was just about to boggle there.

Good fags they were. None of yer low-tar crap for us! Mind you, when they brought out Park Drive tipped we hard men stuck to the lip-ripping untipped jobs as we didn't want to be seen as homosexual...

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM

It is no puzzle Stu, there is no equality in a capitalist system, nobody promised equality. They promised freedom of sorts and social upheaval

In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered, tax them too highly and they move to a regime which values them enough to allow them to work efficiently.
Trickle down economics are the basis of capitalist society, cut out the wealth producers and the house of cards collapses.

I have shown you the only alternative, it will take another couple of generations, we would not like it, but they, "the people" will think it is heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM

"In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered, tax them too highly and they move to a regime which values them enough to allow them to work efficiently"

Funny that. When the fat cats threaten to move out we declare that they must be unhindered in order to keep them here. Heaven forfend that we tax them much, if at all. When the miners and the shipyard workers and the steel workers threatened to strike to improve their pittance, they were "holding the country to ransom." I think I know who the real wealth creators are and I think I know who's really holding the country to ransom, and I think I know that you've got it arse about face.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

i find it very difficult addressing you as Backwoodsman. you become someone different - permanently exasperated.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:02 AM

" I think I know who the real wealth creators are and I think I know who's really holding the country to ransom, and I think I know that you've got it arse about face."

Perhaps a few lessons on how to think clearly might alter your false perceptions!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

Try me. Preferably from your own brain, not via a ton of pointless links from biased sources. Try a dash of civility while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

"i find it very difficult addressing you as Backwoodsman. you become someone different - permanently exasperated."

Is that you or me that's 'permanently exasperated', Al? 😜😎

There are indeed some extremely exasperating fuckwits around the place - I keep taking myself away from Mudcat for spells to give myself a break from the worst of them but, occasionally, I'm tempted to check back to see how things are.

And it's forever Groundhog Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM

"Funny that. When the fat cats threaten to move out we declare that they must be unhindered in order to keep them here. Heaven forfend that we tax them much, if at all. When the miners and the shipyard workers and the steel workers threatened to strike to improve their pittance, they were "holding the country to ransom."

Well Steve it's quite simple really and not at all "funny". The miners and steelworkers were NOT "wealth producers" their respective industries were in decline and their product had become uncompetitive.

Not wholly the fault of the workers of course but the system doesn't do charity. Vote for capitalism and you get exactly what you deserve.
Welcome to the real world....someday.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM

i think the thing is that they enjoy our stable society with all the protections, privileges and available pleasures. the only way it will remain stable is if they cough up their taxes, like the rest of us have to.

i'm having to pay vat and fuck knows what on my guitar amps, why shouldn't Lewis Hamilton and Prince Charles pay tax on their private jets.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM

In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered

Yup. Trickle-down economics, a.k.a. "Voodoo Economics" (Thank you Bush I) one more time, with feeling.

Diffiren decade, same bullshit: hasn't worked yet.

What's that definition of insanity again; doing the same thing... well...never mind.

Welcome to the New Guilded Age & the current crop of "malefactors of great wealth" - Where's Teddy Roosevelt (Republican, by the way!) when we need him???

Too much cannot be said against the men of wealth who sacrifice everything to getting wealth. There is not in the world a more ignoble character than the mere money-getting American, insensible to every duty, regardless of every principle, bent only on amassing a fortune, and putting his fortune only to the basest uses ?whether these uses be to speculate in stocks and wreck railroads himself, or to allow his son to lead a life of foolish and expensive idleness and gross debauchery, or to purchase some scoundrel of high social position, foreign or native, for his daughter. Such a man is only the more dangerous if he occasionally does some deed like founding a college or endowing a church, which makes those good people who are also foolish forget his real iniquity. These men are equally careless of the working men, whom they oppress, and of the State, whose existence they imperil. There are not very many of them, but there is a very great number of men who approach more or less closely to the type, and, just in so far as they do so approach, they are curses to the country. (TR in Forum, February 1895.)

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 07:12 PM

Would you care to answer for yourself Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:28 PM

Global Gobbelization has always been for those with the price of admission. All others are servants.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM

I see the menu on offer at hotel corbinista comes from the same trough of Paradise!
Were they not supposed to be included in "US".
The usual hypocrisy from labour!

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/877353/Labour-Jeremy-Corbyn-Paradise-Papers-tax-avoiders-capitalism-offshore

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Well now there's a lovely bit of measured writing from an unbiased source! You're picking at scraps, as is the Express. Before you get back to reading your scurrilous rag, can you give us chapter and verse on when Jeremy Corbyn appointed himself "champion of the people?" That's what your item sez,after all. Come along, Iains - piss or get off the pot!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:20 AM

Stupid, stupid boy!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM

And do take a little advice on choosing your links a little more wisely. On that same page in the Express the leader writer is railing against the Labour Party, quite rightly, for failing to properly inform Carl Sargeant of the allegations against him . Yeah, sure, make certain that the accused know what they're accused of, right? We'll agree with that, I'm sure. A little further down is an advert for Israel bonds. Israel imprisons hundreds of Palestinians (they call it, euphemistically, "administrative detention") without charge, often without telling the victims what they're supposed to have done, often for a year or more, then they almost always just let them go. Frankly, Iains, I don't think the Labour Party need take any lectures about hypocrisy from the Daily Express.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM

The news that just keeps on giving. More scraps for the well educated scientist that at 60+ still cannot create a link! Or is that his devious ploy to excuse seamlessly conflating fact with fiction?


http://www.theweek.co.uk/paradise-papers/89578/paradise-papers-labour-councils-avoid-12m-in-uk-tax

Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:36 AM

And stop being so bloody rude. That post was completely uncalled for. I set you a challenge that you can't rise to. When did Corbyn appoint himself "champion of the people?" That's what your link said he's done. Presumably you link to things that you agree with. If the Express can make that up, what else do they make up? If the best you can do is answer that with a puerile insult then the rest of us can draw our own conclusions about you.