Obit: Muhammad Zaoul

Subject: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 08:51 AM

Muhammad Zaoul of Bethlehem, the father of a 2 year old son and whose wife is pregnant with a 2nd child died yesterday in Jerusalem as he bravely martyred himself with explosives strapped to himself.

In his martyrdom, Muhammad Zaoul took 8 Jews with him. 2 of the Jews were 18 year old boys still in high school who will now not be available for duty in the Israeli army. Along with the 8 dead Jews, Muhammad Zaoul seriously injured and maimed 50 other Jews, including many children.

Muhammad Zaoul was a heroic member of the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, a division of Yasir Arafat's Fatah.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 08:58 AM

Yeah but who are YOU, hiding under the guest tag.
eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 08:59 AM

Martyr my arse, bloody murderer.
eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,John Hernandez
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM

Why isn't this under BS where it belongs for more reasons than one?

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM

This thread should not only be under BS, it should also be under a pile of horseshit along with its originator!

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 10:51 AM

Horseshit? far too good, I expect this is the reaction he/she was hoping for.
eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Bobjack
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 10:56 AM

Methinks there is some serious mischief going on here. There has been a sudden rash of jewish/arab threads. Best thing is not to post to them. Doh!! just have!

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:17 AM

You must be mistaken first guest. Sharon guaranteed us that imprisoning the palestinians inside of ghettos surrounded by the aparthied wall (built on palestinian land) would prevent suicide attacks. Sharon wouldn't lie to us. Therefore it can't have happened.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 04:32 PM

I don't consider it a good idea to use irony in a post reporting the death of a human, whatever the circumstances.

But I consider it ironic that a poster giving a name to someone who in the usual news would be a number, or a fraction of a number ("today, in Jerusalem, up to ... people have been killed..."), something which I think is a good idea, does not give a name to himself or herself.

Reminds me of the song "Who fears to speak of '98" being published anonymously.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: open mike
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 04:48 PM

coward--left his wife to care for a 2 year old and one other child soon to arrive...should have been concentrating on life rather than death.
I wonder if his deed actually ensured that they have a better world to live in? sad situation...

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:10 PM

Open Mike,

Whenever the Israelis know who a suicide bomber is, they go and destroy his family's home. Zaoul would have been aware that his action would have consequences for his family. That he made a video identifying himself would indicate that he didn't care about those consequences.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:13 PM

His act guaranteed that the family will be driven from their home and Israelis will bulldoze it. There used to be a fund, supported by Saddam Hussein, that paid money to those whose homes were destroyed in this manner by Israelis--I think it paid them something very large--along the lines of $50,000. It probably hasn't gone away, but has a different sponsor.

There are no winners in this situation in the Middle East. But Israel must back off of many of the aggressive stances they have assumed if they want the terrorist response to stop.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM

Are y'all sure this obit was really pro-Muhammad Zaoul & not a satire?

clint

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:59 PM

Clint Keller, did you read this tongue in cheek, sit and chuckle over your morning coffee at what you perceived as satire?

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:25 PM

And NONE of you recognize a troll to get everyone flamed up!

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:33 PM

Walking Eagle,

It probably was a troll posting this, no doubt. But after a thread has gone on for a little while, contributing remarks of some substance is one way to redeem the thing. Or to make it go away. As has been said before at the Mudcat, I think his way of indignantly announcing the abrupt passage of Mr. Zaoul and innocent bystanders was meant to enflame, but the topic of peace in the Middle East is one we have thrashed many times.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:34 PM

The coward is the anonymous guest who posted the name of the deceased.

d

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:42 PM

I think Muhammad Zaoul was a damned fool, the the guest who posted this thread was another.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:06 AM

Whether this thread is a 'troll posting' or not, the fact that Muhammad Zaoul thought more of his 'martyrdom' than his 2 year old child and pregnant wife, shows what a bankrupt philosophy he subscribed to. No doubt the Israeli authorities will now retaliate, and so it goes on.
While I am sure we would all agree more dialogue is needed, how on earth do you reason with a mind that has been poisoned with hate and lies all its life. What is truly needed on both sides is a total change of heart, and that, I fear, is beyond human endeavour.
Thankfully, as the Bible states, "nothing is impossible for God".
In South Africa we saw a peaceful transition from apartheid to democracy when we thought there would be a blood-bath, so there is always hope.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 12:42 PM

Dave: a mind that has been poisoned with hate and lies all its life ...
Ever been to the deep South or in the hills of Arkansa or .....?

d

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:38 PM

Things in the American South things have changed a great deal, and I don't think its fair or appropriate to characterize the violence in the Middle East with today's rural or urban American South.

Look at programs like The Murder of Emmett Till for one of the seminal historic events in race relations in America. The 1955 murder of this child started a lot of soul searching and consciousness-raising here in the U.S. I doubt the event marked above is going to have the same effect.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:06 PM

An article about the Israelis Zaoul murdered.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:19 PM

What a bummer.

And you wonder why I have questioned all of the so called solutions that have been presented here. You will never be able to change this kind of hate.

Hate lives here. God bless the souls who suffer from this kind of hate.

Martin

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Justa Picker
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:40 PM

This thread is a prime example of why I cannot entice knowledgable musicians to join and contribute to this forum.

These types of threads (politics, religion, virulent racism) destroy the credibility of Mudcat as MUSIC RESOURCE and, as a FOLK COMMUNITY.

Shame on the powers that be here, in allowing this.
Fuck Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM

Stilly River Sage :

You ask "Clint Keller, did you read this tongue in cheek, sit and chuckle over your morning coffee at what you perceived as satire? "

I was asking a question. I didn't perceive it as satire, but I thought it might be a clumsy attempt at it; describing definitely unheroic actions as heroic.

After all, "…Muhammad Zaoul seriously injured and maimed 50 other Jews, including many children. / Muhammad Zaoul was a heroic member of the Al Aksa Martyrs…" is piss-poor praise.

I would have thought some of Rumsfield's statements were satire - or parody- if Jon Stewart had said them. It's hard to tell in this world.

clint

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM

I was watching a documentary about the "security" wall recently. They were filming in a Palestinian village that was right next to a kibbutz within the West Bank. The people of the village and the people of the kibbutz had been living side by side peacefully for 50 years. They regarded one another as allies at the very least, and in some ways, as friends. These people did not hate one another.

Then one day, Israeli bulldozers came and plowed down a sizable portion of the olive trees belonging to the Palestinians of the village. These olive trees were the livelihood of these people. After knocking down the olive trees, the Israelis then carted them off to be used by them elsewhere.

They showed an exchange between a Palestinian man and an Israeli woman from the kibbutz. Prior to this, these two people had regarded one another as good friends. The Palestinian man kept asking how the people of the kibbutz could have let the bulldozers drive through their kibbutz and into the Palestinian village. They had been promised by those who lived in the kibbutz that they would not allow such a thing. The woman said she didn't know about the bulldozers.

The Palestinian man couldn't believe that nobody in the kibbutz heard the bulldozers. There were about a half dozen of them and they were huge and very loud. You could see a veil of mistrust descend over the eyes of both the man and the woman as the conversation progressed.

Not too long after the buldozers came, some people from another part of the West Bank came into the kibbutz and killed some of the Israelis who lived there.

Anyone who thinks this is happening because of a lifetime of hate on the part of the Palestinians is suffering from the very indoctrinated hatred that they project onto the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:40 PM

CarolC,

Are you sure it was a kibbutz? While Israel does have settlements in the West Bank, it's always been my understanding that none of them are kibbutzes.

Kibbutzniks tend to be from the left side of the Israeli political spectrum and would not be present in the occupied territories. The Israeli West Bank settlers tend to be right wing and believe that the territories are part of the land promised to them by God.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM

They called it a kibbutz in the documentary. The Israelis who lived there seemed to be very sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians in the village next door. They were working very hard to try to get the Palestinian village, and I believe also the kibbutz, to be put on the West Bank side of the wall, but the government of Israel was not cooperating with that idea.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:45 PM

Here's the transcript of the documentary I saw:

Behind The Fence

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:49 PM

Typical Carol C. Israel/Jew bashing.

OK, so olive trees were being cut down. Let's blow ourselves up over it.

The Palestinians are just poor, poor suffering terrorists aren't they Carol C.? I think your brain has been caught in your accordian to many times.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:54 PM

Marty - what do you do when someone keeps pushing and pushing? Better yet; what would you do if someone kept pushing your home further and further into the desert and then built a wall to keep you there?

d

Subject: Lyr Add: MRS. MCGRATH
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:05 PM

Clint Keller, just as you asked a question, I asked a question. The way the questions were asked suggested an argument to come, didn't they? That was the point. Regardless of how clumsily the original post appeared, satire wasn't part of it. Sarcasm could have been, but not satire.

Justa Picker, chill out and move back up the page. How on EARTH do you think folk songs have any relevance to the world in which they spawned, are performed and are understood? It isn't by people with their heads in the grasses. Take an ontological view--they are as much social commentary as they are origin stories and general world view. All of that material comes from somewhere.

MRS. MCGRATH

"Oh, Mrs. McGrath," the sergeant said,
"Would you like to make a soldier out of your son, Ted?
With a scarlet coat, and a big cocked hat,
Sure, Mrs. McGrath, wouldn't you like that?"

cho: With your too- ri- ay, fol the diddle day,
Too- ri- you- ri too- ri- ay.

Now Mrs. McGrath lived by the seashore
For the space of seven long years or more;
Till she say a big ship sail into the bay,
"Here's my son, Ted, will ye clear the way!"

"Oh, Captain, dear, where have ye been? ;
Have you been in the Meditereen?
Will ye tell me the news of my son, Ted?
Is the poor boy livin', or is he dead?"

Ah, well up comes Ted without any legs
An in their place he had two wooden pegs,
Well, she kissed him a dozen times or two,
Saying "Glory to God?, sure it wouldn't be you!"

"Oh were ye drunk, or were ye blind
That ye left your two fine legs behind?
Or was it while walkin' on the sea
A big fish ate your legs from the knees away?"

"Well, I wasn't drunk and I wasn't blind
When I left my two fine legs behind.
But a cannon ball, on the fifth of May,
Tore my two fine legs from the knees away."

"Oh, Teddy, me boy," the old widow cried,
"Yer two fine legs were yer mammy's pride,
Them stumps of a tree wouldn't do at all,
Why didn't ye run from the big cannon ball?"

"Well, all foreign wars I do proclaim
Between Don John and the King of Spain,
And bejasus I'll make them rue the time
That they swept the legs from a child of mine."

Okay, Justa Picker, tell me where a fine song like this came from if social commentary and political observation weren't going on in the lives of the singers and composers? Different continent, different time, universal appeal.

I rest my case.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:07 PM

Jew bashing, Martin? You must not have even read what I posted, which is, I guess, typical of you. I said that the Jews in the kibbutz were sympathetic to their Palestinian neighbors and were trying to help them. The Jews in that scenario are just as much victims of the government of Israel as are the Palestinians.

Your knee-jerk reactions to my posts show you to be what you really are: ignorant and scared.

The Palestinians are being forced off of the land they have been living on for hundreds of years. If someone was trying to do that to you, I know you would not take it without a fight. In fact, I know you would fight it with every means at your disposal. It's hypocrisy for you to criticize someone else for doing something you would do yourself. So go suck a lemon.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM

CarolC,

The kibbutz in the documentary is Kibbutz Metzer. Kibbutz Metzer is close to the Green Line, but is most definitely within Israel. It is near, but not, as you said, on the West Bank.

The terrorist attack on Kibbutz Metzer only serves to bolster the arguments of those building the security wall.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM

But the attack was caused by the wall being built on Palestinian land. I don't think even the Palestinians would necessarily have a problem if the wall was being built on or within the Green Line. I wouldn't have any criticisms about the wall myself if it was being built on the Israel side of the Green Line.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: LadyJean
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:24 PM

I was thinking today. If my husband had abandoned me with a two year old and a baby on the way for some Imam's promise of 70 virgins in Muslim heaven, I would seriously consider giving up Islam and becoming an Episcopalian.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:36 PM

I seem to be agreeing with nearly all that CarolC has to say this time around. Darn, it almost makes me nostalgic for the good old days of verbal fisticuffs. (That's an oxymoron, isn't it?)

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Carol C.
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:53 PM

I know what I always read Carol C. You keep ripping Israel and sticking up for the Palestinians everytime. Then you resort to name calling. Yeah, I'm scared Carol C. Scared of people like you.

You are very dangerous Carol C. Dangerous to Israel and to Jews.

You tell me to go suck a lemon? Go suck Palestinian genitalia.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:55 PM

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:31 AM

Well, it looks like this guest isn't going to rise above name calling and character assassination. Time to abandon this thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:05 AM

I resort to name calling, Martin? It's your rhetorical tactic to hurl abuse at everyone who disagrees with you. Like you just did in your 24 Feb 04 - 11:53 PM post that you signed with my name next to the word GUEST.

When people resort to the kinds of tactics you use, it's a sure sign they know they're losing the argument.

You are very dangerous Carol C. Dangerous to Israel and to Jews..

Is this a threat?

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:25 AM

Carol C - You're as bad as me. Why do we feel the need to even respond to Martin Gibson? We both know that he's not even real. My guess is that it is a group of boys in a dorm with one computer. Anyway, he's not worth it. At least Tar heels was a real person, he could even play an instrument. As awful as he was, he created some very interesting discussion - some of his threads are still alive.

But Marty the Smarty? If we ignore him, he will die a natural death.

d

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:30 AM

Stilly River Sage:

I'm sorry that I offended you. Didn't mean to start a fight, & I didn't chuckle at the post.

I really wasn' t sure which way it was meant.

Since we haven't heard from Guest I suppose it was only meant to annoy.

I'm not sure about the line between sarcasm & satire; I thought it might be a satirical eulogy, but maybe I should have said sarcastic. Whatever the correct word is, I was wondering if he was saying something but meaning its opposite.

I truly didn't mean it as any kind of challenge.

clint

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM

The guest who started this thread achieved exactly what he aimed for, extreme reaction.
eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,Amira from Brooklyn
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

Then let me disappoint him with a moderate reaction from an Arab American. What Muhammad Zaoul did was wrong. I cannot defend it and I won't, but I can understand it for what it was, an act of self-destructive desperation by one of my compatriots. Do not the Jews take their children to visit Masada? Do they not admire Hana who sacrificed her seven sons? Do they not rejoice at the slaughter of innocent Egyptian children in their Passover? Were those not all acts of self-destructive desparation by an oppressed people? Please don't try to tell me it was an Angel of Death that slayed the first born, or I will answer with enough angels of my own!

What we need to create are the conditions (economic, military, political, diplomatic) that will make those acts of desperation less likely. I am not claiming that all violence will disappear, but I am claiming that when such conditions are in place, then voices of compromise, moderation, and nonviolence will sound a whole lot more appealing than they do right now. The first thing that needs to be done is for the Israelis to stop taking Palestinian land, whether they do it by settlements, by expulsions, by creating restricted military zones, by limiting the right to acquire property to Jews only, or by building a wall through Arab lands. After that we can talk.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM

Clint, consider the question sorted out as far as our parts in examining it go. It was possible to read that post from a couple of directions.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM

Whether or not my original post in this thread was sarcastic, satiric, or the work of a true believer, is irrelevant. The actual facts were accurate and appeared in virtually every mainstream news outlet.

The following paragraph is from Arabicnews.com and reflects the same sentiments as my original post.

Al-Aqsa group of the Fatah movement announced in a statement responsibility for the operation. The statement said that "Muhammad Zaoul (20 year old) from Housan village, Bethlehem district carried out the martyrdom operation." The statement added "our operation comes in the context of our answer to al-Shuja'eya massacre and all other massacres committed against our people as well as the operation of building the Nazi wall."

Here is the complete article.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:29 PM

Just a question here folks, nothing to get excited about. I wonder though, when someone posts a subject that might be considered a troll, why we start to fighting amongst ourselves? I'm not asking with any meaness or wrath, just an observational question. Why do we all jump in feet first, ready to go a few rounds?

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: GUEST,'SYOM
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:39 PM

I don't make a habit of responding to threads initiated by Guest trollers, so here's one back:

The entire problem stems from the assumption that Palestinians have land.

A document from the Turkish empire doesn't bear entitlement to land after Turkey lost control before the passing of two world wars and three Arab Israeli wars.

The Palestinians are entitled to the land that either Israel gives 'em or they can fight to win. At present they have been fighting to win and with a little help from the world community and people like GUEST who trolls, maybe they will.

If they want to bleat about Israel choosing to defend itself, it's so much hot air.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Zaoul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:51 PM

The Palestinians are entitled to the land that either Israel gives 'em or they can fight to win.

And what, in your opinion, makes it Israel's land to give?