Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash (2002)

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM

Guest - thanks, & good work! "Chickenshits for Peace" -- HAW! Right On!! / Midwest Progressives - don't forget Fighting Bob LaFollette.

Are Sen. Wellstone's sons over 30? I'm assuming so. That's the minimum age to serve as a U.S. Senator per US Constitution, Article I. (Even Teddy Kennedy had to be old enough, if barely, back in 1962.)

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: raredance
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 10:30 PM

Knowing about Bush 41's expressed opinion of Wellstone, it turned my stomach to see 5/4's piously insincere statement about Wellstone on the news last night.

rich r

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

Yes, I know what you mean rich r. There are a lot of statements like that being made, but remember that is the prez-select's job, and the custom of those in power. It would be unbecoming, not to say unpresidential, for him to have done otherwise. When the public expects a political leader to make a statement, as in the case of a fellow political leader's death, you say something nice. It is never considered polite to speak ill of the dead (even though there will always be some who do it, just to hurt those who are already truly grieving). At least until they are buried!

But there have been many genuine statements too--it was very difficult to watch Senator Tom Harkin's statement. Very sad.

There is to be a public memorial for all those who died in the crash on Tuesday at 6 PM.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:21 AM

Oddly, I just read that CNN is announcing that the DFL party has chosen Mondale. Ahem. One of Wellstone's sons worked for the Humphrey campaign in 2000, so I wouldn't think that is the case. Some local Big Buck party contributors and some in the DNC seem to be getting a bit ahead of themselves here, considering the DFL Party Chair said yesterday in a very public press conference that the party was going to honor the wishes of the family in the selection of a replacement, if there was going to be one.

Someone needs to take CNN off steroids, methinks.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:57 PM

Yes, CNN jumped the gun. I heard the party chair being interviewed this morning, and he clearly refused to confirm the Mondale rumor. There CAN'T be an official choice yet because the DFL State Central Committee, which has the power to make the choice, hasn't met. I haven't heard anyone say when they WILL meet, but they must be notified at least 72 hours before the meeting occurs. And the committee has about 500 members--including at least one from each of the 87 counties, 2 from each of the 67 state senatorial districts, and more! (I got this info from the Constitution and Bylaws of the Minnesota DFL Party.) It seems very unlikely that a majority of them have even developed a definite opinion yet, let alone communicated that opinion to CNN or anyone else. I have failed to find a list of the members' names online.

I think it's probably true that the Wellstone sons and Mondale have made a private agreement, but no one can guarantee that the Committee will accept it. Mondale has said he won't comment until after the memorial service.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 07:13 PM

Still no comments or statements from the family though, and when asked on the Sunday morning news shows, Daschle also refused to confirm that the Wellstone family had asked Mondale to run. This evening the DFL Party Chair did confirm the story about the meeting, and is supporting the story as it appeared on CNN.

It is beginning to look to me like there has been a lot of well orchestrated pressure put on the family to "choose" Mondale. The Minneapolis paper is reporting who exactly was at the meeting, which was five people, including David Wellstone, Sen. Wellstone's campaign manager, and his campaign treasurer. So now we know who "leaked" the Wellstone family wishes to the press--David Lillehaug, a party hack who headed up Mondale's presidential campaign in 1984, who was at the meeting to help represent Mondale, presumably. The whole thing churns the stomach. The "conventional wisdom" now appears to be that the family shouldn't even be allowed to bury the dead first, and that "the choice" should take precedence over the funeral.

However, I will give kudos to Wellstone's opponent, Norm Coleman (whom I dislike on a personal level because of his prfound tendency towards crass political opportunism at every turn). He has really been decent through this. So decent in fact, that he is beginning to make the Democrats look VERY BAD. Which of course could definitely work against the Dems on Nov 5th, if they can't clean up the politicking going on about the replacement "choice". It got EXTREMELY tacky looking in Minnesota today in a *shudder*/stomach turning sort of way.

This is all beginning to look and sound very orchestrated from national party levels. In fact, it is beginning to look like this race will go down in history as the Senate campaign where the contenders were hand-picked by the national leaders, rather than the local people. Pathetic, really.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:00 PM

I'm not sure I get your point, GUEST. Why "tacky"? The idea of local control is that all the people in the State help choose candidates, usually in a primary. With 9 days to go, they are not going to hold a primary. Surely the wishes of a decedent's family should be respected in matters which only affect the family, or its property. But public office isn't property and is not supposed to pass by inheritance. What principle requires that a deceased politician's family should select his successor?

What you say also sounds a lot like speculating about conspiracies that may not exist, for reasons I don't understand. What is your problem with Mondale?

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:27 PM

Good point, toadfrog. In fact, Wellstone's own popularity with the Minnesota voters may well not transfer to another candidate who espouses his political views, partly because it was Wellstone's warmth and character, in addition to his zeal and commitment, that won him votes. I think not only the voters of Minnesota (particularly the Democrats) have a stake in who runs in Wellstone's stead, but so do Democrats and moderate-to-left-leaning individuals all over the US. A Coleman victory could well throw the Senate back to the Republicans, and I shudder to think of the consequences of having right-wingers in control of Congress, the White House, and, partly by virtue of that, the Judiciary.

For those who focus on the differences between Mondale and Wellstone, I have to ask:
Which would you rather have, if you had to choose -- Mondale running and winning or Winona LaDuke (or another progressive populist) running and losing? I'm not suggesting that I know who would win and who would lose, only that the issue is not just who runs but, more importantly, who wins.

There well may not be time before this election to find a candidate who really shares most of Wellstone's views AND who has the name recognition and poplarity to win.

Right now, the focus should be on grieving the loss of this great statesman and the other lives lost in the plane crash. But in very short order, the public's attention needs to be on election strategy. That's reality, I'm afraid.



Genie

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:27 PM

Associated Press -

ST. PAUL, Minn. (Oct. 27) - Sen. Paul Wellstone's oldest son has urged former Vice President Walter Mondale to step in as his late father's replacement on the Nov. 5 ballot, Democratic leaders said Sunday.

Mike Erlandson, chairman of the state's Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party, said David Wellstone asked Mondale to run in his father's place. He and other surviving family members weren't immediately available to comment, the late senator's campaign staff said.

A group of up to 875 Minnesota Democrats will meet Wednesday to officially choose the substitute candidate for Wellstone, who died Friday in a plane crash.

Erlandson refused to say whether Mondale would be the nominee, although he has said the family's choice would weigh heavily in the party's decision. He said he believes Mondale will run if nominated.

If Democrats succeed in drafting Mondale, it will give them a powerhouse candidate for a six-day campaign against Republican Norm Coleman, the former St. Paul mayor who entered the race at the urging of President Bush. The race had been tight between Coleman and Wellstone and was a top target of Republicans trying to regain control of the Senate.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer on Sunday said the administration would wait until the Democrats formally name a replacement before commenting on the race. ''It's still appropriate to let the people of Minnesota grieve,'' he said.

State Republican officials have said they would attempt to cast a Mondale-Coleman race as a choice between a reluctant placeholder and someone who is eager to do the work.

''Walter Mondale is a good man,'' Coleman said Sunday, declining to comment further on his potential opponent. ''There will be a campaign, but now is not the time.''

Mondale, 74, hasn't returned calls to reporters or answered the door at his Minneapolis home.

Those close to Mondale said he isn't expected to comment publicly on a potential candidacy until after Tuesday's memorial service for Wellstone, his wife, daughter and three campaign workers who died in the plane crash. Relatives of the six passengers and two pilots visited the northern Minnesota crash site Sunday.

A reconstruction of the flight showed everything appeared normal as the pilot made his approach, Carol Carmody, acting chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board said Sunday.

She said they still don't know why about a minute after the last radio contact, the aircraft began drifting south, away from the airport, and slowing down before it crashed.

Erlandson said the blessing of Wellstone's surviving family members makes Mondale the clear favorite.

''He is certainly the public sentiment front-runner, among activists, among party leadership,'' Erlandson said. ''We've had hundreds of phone calls and e-mails.''

National Democratic leaders also have reached out to Mondale over the past two days.

During a visit to Wellstone's campaign headquarters Sunday, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said Mondale was clearly the strongest choice, calling him ''the great unifier.''

''People in this state, people in this country can unite behind his strength,'' he said.

Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., the chamber's No. 2 Democrat, said Mondale would have the immediate respect of everyone in the Senate.

''He's a person who would look forward to doing the things that Paul Wellstone wanted to do - do something about health care reform, take care of the underprivileged by passing a minimum wage. He would do something about prescription drugs,'' Reid said on CNN's ''Late Edition.''

Mondale had held the same Senate seat for 12 years before accepting Jimmy Carter's invitation to run for vice president in 1976. In 1984, Mondale challenged President Reagan for office and was soundly defeated.

He served as U.S. ambassador to Japan from 1993 to 1996 and has practiced law in Minneapolis since then.

The battle for Wellstone's seat was one of a half-dozen or so expected to determine which party will control the Senate next year. The loss of Wellstone leaves the chamber split 49-49 among Republicans and Democrats, with one independent, Jim Jeffords of Vermont, who is allied with the Democrats.

Gov. Jesse Ventura still hasn't decided whether to appoint a temporary successor who would serve until the election winner is officially certified. He met with lawyers Saturday and said if he names someone, it probably will be a Democrat and someone who doesn't plan to run for the office.

His spokesman, John Wodele, said Sunday that Ventura will likely wait until after Tuesday's service to announce his intentions.

''If the governor decides it's necessary to name an appointment it would probably be before the election, but there is no urgency right now,'' Wodele said.

Erlandson said he hopes Ventura will hold off and name the election winner if an interim fill-in is needed.

It appeared it wouldn't be legal to leave Wellstone's name on the ballot. Absentee ballots already marked for Wellstone won't count for the Senate race, but people who submitted them could go to the polls on Nov. 5 and submit a new ballot.

Two years ago, when Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan was killed in a plane crash three weeks before the election while running for the Senate, his name remained on the ballot and he beat Republican Sen. John Ashcroft. Carnahan's widow, Jean, was appointed to serve in his place and is now seeking election.

AP-NY-10-27-02 1907EDT

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

I received a reply to my e-mail to Skip Humphrey. I hope he wouldn't mind if I reproduced it here in full:

Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:25:54 -0600

Jim: you are very kind. My first thought is how tragic all this is. We have lost a fine public servant and his family, and we have all lost a great friend.

I believe the very best way to move forward would be for Fritz Mondale to run. He has the seniority, the experience, and the vision to fulfill Paul's dreams - and to represent all of Minnesota in the very best way. Skiph

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:18 PM

Thanks, Pooka, for the update.

Thanks, Jim, for that very gracious note from SkipH. Interesting days in politics, sad way to come by them, though.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:36 PM

Toadfrog--there will be a meeting of the DFL Party Central Committee, which is 875 members, on Wednesday night to nominate a new candidate. That is required by law and by the rules of the party, which Jim Dixon provides a link to above. I am not suggesting that any conspiracy has occurred--that is your choice of words. The choice of words I would use are "back room deals" being made by the national Democratic party leaders, and forcing that "choice" on Minnesota voters. I don't know what exactly to call the "principle" (your word choice again) of allowing the deceased senator's family a say in the choice of the successor, but it obviously exists. Why else would the state DFL party chair state on Saturday that the successor to Wellstone would be chosen "according to the wishes of the Senator's family."

And here is what was VERY unseemly. Yesterday, Daschle held a press conference in front of Wellstone's campaign office, announcing that Mondale was the best candidate, before any public comment was made by the family, before a single funeral had taken place (they started holding them today), and at the same time the families were visiting the crash site where their loved ones were killed.

Here is the way the 10 PM newscasts on four networks looked last night in Minnesota, more or less in this order:

First, the video of the bus carrying family members of those lost in the crash, driving past the media pool stationed on the road outside the crash site.

Then, video of a makeshift altar made by the families at the crash site (one pool photographer from AP was allowed onto the crash site after the families had left, to film the wreckage). We are told the family members were there for about two hours.

Next, video of Wellstone's opponent, Norm Coleman, going in to one of the local news stations to appear on the Sunday morning political talk shows, giving roughly the following statement: "This is ONLY an election, for God's sake. We need to focus on burying the dead. Whatever amount of time God leaves us for campaigning, we will campaign vigorously, but now is not the time."

And finally, video of Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle standing in front of what people are now calling "the Wellstone Wall" (ie the sidewalk in front of Wellstone's office, where people are leaving their flowers, mementos, etc) announcing that Walter Mondale is a hero of his, a great candidate for the people of Minnesota, and he is sure the Senate, the national party, and the people of Minnesota would support him as candidate. But it is unseemly to be speculating at this time."

THAT is the series of events that many Minnesotans are appalled by. They are seeing the national Democratic party, the national news media, and some local DFL party hacks all engaging in partisan campaigning in front of Wellstone's office for the benefit of the TV cameras, while the Republican opponent is putting things in proper perspective for Minnesotans, who believe burying the dead IS more important than choosing the successor. Minnesotans are perfectly well aware that the choice needs to be made, but everyone was supposed to have agreed on Friday that nothing was to happen over the weekend. What emerged on network television was proof positive a lot of back room meetings were taking place, a lot of Democratic politicking was taking place in front of local and national news media, and the whole thing was a complete turn-off. No matter what people think of Wellstone (and no, not everyone in Minnesota loved the man by a long shot), there is a genuine expectation that the customs of funerals and decorum of the office be honored and respected. They really weren't here in Minnesota. People instead saw the media justifying their appalling behavior, by saying "the election is only a few days away, so we have to report this."

No. That is not true. But it does prove why people now dislike the media just as much as they dislike the politicians. Because they show such contempt for the rest of us, who know full well that respecting and burying the dead is the first priority, and is not and should not be relegated to the second priority just because of an election. No election is that important, no matter how badly the Democrats or Republicans or media hacks want us to believe it is. Elections aren't more important than allowing the families and friends of those lost, and the people of the state of Minnesota who lost one of their senators, to bury their dead.

Norm Coleman is right. At the end of the day, it really isn't about the election at all. It is about grieving the loss of eight people who were killed in a tragic accident. Elections come and go. But this is the only chance we get to mourn the dead--and there are many, many people in Minnesota going about the business of doing just that. Thousands of mourners are turning out at memorial services around the state, and an estimated 20,000 people are expected to attend the public memorial service tomorrow night. There is a reason why Mondale and Wellstone's family aren't commenting yet. Because it wouldn't be decent to do so. At least not in the eyes of most Minnesotans.

This is OUR election after all, isn't it? Aren't we supposed to be allowed to vote for the senate candidate who will best represent our interests, rather than the senate candidate the President of the United States or the Senate Majority leader says we should be allowed to elect? People here aren't that interested in the balance of power in the Senate and the House. They are interested in getting someone in office who will fight for them, rather than the party or the money contributors.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:46 PM

While I agree with you that it is wrong for them to speak up about Mondale before today, I have to say that it is about much more than just what Minnesotans want. This is such an incredibly important race for the direction of our entire country. Not just Minnesota's race, but also Colorado's and several others. None of them stand alone in the far-reaching implications of their successful bids for office. I don't think we can stress enough how important it is to maintain the checks and balances a Democratic majority can exert on this president, especially. I am deeply sorry for Minnesota's loss, but it has been obvious from the beginning that this is a huge loss for our nation, too and Wellstone certainly worked tirelessly for the good of our entire citizenry. Crass as it may seem, we need someone who has a good chance of winning. If that has to be Mondale, then so be it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:14 PM

No, I don't agree katlaughing. Only people who believe politics has some special entitlement to overshadow all other life and death human concerns and endeavors, would seriously think the election is more important than the funerals for those involved in what is a catastrophic loss. Catastrophic, katlaughing. Not to the rest of the country, but to us.

Wellstone was OUR senator, not a blip on the evening news in another state. Three of the people killed in the crash had connections to the University of Minnesota, where the memorial will be held--one of them was not only a DFL party official, but was also head of a large department at the University--one of the most prominent public institutions in our state. Three families and nine children have been left without a mother. Wellstone was the highest elected official in the state. His death alone would have been a huge deal. But this? No, this isn't just another news story of the Campaign 2002. The story in Minnesota is much, much bigger than that.

To most Minnesotans, the upcoming election is no bigger a deal than any other election, no matter how much that pisses political junkies and media pundits off. Alot of people have been deeply offended by this media and political circus, and consider the "in your face" attitudes shown by politicians and the media, justifying their appalling behavior with claims that Minnesotans have to just shut up and take it because this is election is SO much more important than the deaths of these human beings. They believe that the politicians and media have very, very fucked up priorities which are most certainly not in accordance with theirs.

This catastrophe shows just how disconnected politicians and the media are from real people, and how little they understand what is truly important to most of us. And it so is NOT the election.
So to argue that the majority of people should be more concerned with intra-party politicking than with burying the dead in a tragedy like this, is ludicrous. Political junkies and the media that feeds off that trough think so, but most people don't share that Beltway mentality about the importance of politics, elections, or this election in particular.

The inter-party and intra-party fighting in Minnesota is now so intense and ugly, that the governor is saying it is all going to be settled in court, the former Republican governor publicly released a letter he wrote today to his own state Republican party chair, demanding the party cease and desist the campaigning until Wednesday after the memorials and funerals are over, and the Republican party hacks are FURIOUS at Daschle's appearance in front of Wellstone headquarters...people here are TOTALLY DISGUSTED WITH ALL OF THE POLITICIANS AND THE MEDIA!

It isn't about whether Mondale will run or not anymore. Nobody cares now, as we all know that the deals have been made in the back room by the national party hacks, and the voters aren't going to have any say in who gets put on the ballot anyway.

But we do have nearly the entire US Senate coming for tomorrow's memorial. We know that at least one former president (Clinton) will be present, and possibly others. A high ranking administration official, usually either the president or vice president, will attend, as government protocol compels them to do.

I mean, come on. Are you suggesting that the Minnesota Senate campaign can't wait until after the dead are buried, when there is barely any campaign time left anyway? I mean hell, that is just the way it is going to go. Nobody has any control over the timing of this. Resuming the campaign less than 48 hours after the crash isn't going to give one side or the other an advantage. No one will remember anything now except who really pissed them off with their disrespectful, opportunistic behavior. So when the campaigning starts again in earnest, it will be about the negativity and bad feelings anyway. Which will likely drive down voter turnout even more.

There is a reason why protocol and manners exist. It is to avoid just what we are seeing happen between people right now. At the end of the day, all politics is really about is how we treat one another, not who won control of the Senate or the House in 2002.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:39 PM

Speaking of unseemly, did anyone catch (MN Department of Trade and Economic Development Commissioner) Rebecca Yanisch's statements in the Star Tribune today?

"My interest is showing up on the ballot for the U.S. Senate. I don't know how that will happen, but it may not be this year. It probably will not be this year, because I think former Vice President Walter Mondale is a dedicated statesman."

Eh...

Oh, and GUEST, you REALLY need a name... :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:47 PM

Guest, whoever you are (and let me digress a moment, Guest, and recommend that you adopt a handle we can know you by, or better yet, become a member so your name or handle will be unique and no one will be able to impersonate you)--

Since you praise Norm Coleman so much, let me tell you what I remember of the first time I saw him on TV after the crash. His words were something like this: "I was shocked when I heard... I was up in a plane like that myself... I know how it feels... I said to my wife... I think... I want to... I will... I was... I... I... I..." until I wanted to shout, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, NORM!" Granted, he got better in his subsequent appearances. Maybe someone told him how silly he sounded.

This was not the first time I was irritated by Coleman's manner of speech. He is an egotist, he tends to say whatever comes into his head, and he never uses one word when ten will do. I realize this has nothing to do with his principles, but I don't like them, either.

Coleman knows perfectly well (now that he's had time to reflect, and get advice from his staff) that anything he says now that sounds like a campaign speech, however brief, will backfire. So he is wisely refraining from campaigning. I think, out of fairness, Democrats ought to do the same. We ought to refrain from criticizing Coleman, at least in public. (My criticism doesn't count because this is just among friends, don't you know?) And we should refrain from talking about how wonderful Mondale is -- until the moratorium ends, which I think should be Wednesday.

It was between 8 and 9 p.m., Friday, on Twin Cities Public Television's " Almanac" show that I first heard anyone mention Mondale, and it was Minnesotans who mentioned him. You can watch the archived show yourself; just click on the link. I don't think there is any justification for saying outsiders are forcing anything on us.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:55 PM

My recollection of Friday, which because of the blow when I heard the information, my mad dash to pick up people & head to the vigil, isn't great. But I do seem to recall it was Lillehaug who first mentioned Mondale, and started the "Mondale for Replacement" campaign. On Friday. I remember thinking how creeped out by the interview with him I was, though at the time, I didn't know why. But as soon as I read the article posted at the Strib website late yesterday afternoon with all the gory details of the Saturday morning meeting, well...

I agree, Rebecca Yanish and Norm Coleman--and my god, that horrid, horrid man who is the Republican party chair--have all looked bad. As to Coleman, I really cannot stand him either. But I don't think his reaction on Friday was unusual for a self-absorbed ego maniac, so I really don't hold it against him personally. I think he was deeply shocked. As a friend of mine said, Coleman is a terrible actor, and it was obvious he wasn't acting.

I'm also not so sure that the only reason Coleman isn't campaigning is because his aides told him not to. I really think he isn't campaigning because he genuinely feels the loss for the Wellstone family particularly, and he knows he won't get anywhere doing it anyway. I'm not saying they were close, but it takes a pretty slimy reptile not to feel compassion and empathy for ANY family forced to bear what the Wellstones are suffering right now.

I, and a lot of people I'm talking to about this, really just don't get how people can be THAT cynical. To be so cynical about life as to think that the election really is the most important thing here.

I try and give credit wherever it is due, even to people I really dislike and disagree with. I have a newfound respect for Norm Coleman as a result of this catastrophe. I think in the clutch here, Norm showed he was made of better stuff than some of these Republican party hacks, both nationally and locally. But that was starting to already show awhile back when he was in DC for a fundraiser, and he admitted that despite the Bush Push to War in Iraq (tm), Iraq wasn't what the people on the ground in Minnesota were talking about, the economy was.

So to Norm's credit, he was already pretty tuned in to the disconnect between Minnesota voters and Beltway party hacks and media whores. His own fate has ended up being intimately entwined with that of those who were killed in this crash, and I do think that is what he was commenting on in his own babbling, self-centered way on Friday. I can forgive him for it, considering the circumstances.

At times like this, you have to forgive a lot of people inserting feet in mouth. It is a very stressful, bizarre circumstance. No one has any experience with something like this.

But it is clear who the class acts in Minnesota and national politics are this week. Mondale will be among them, but he is old school. A nest full of rattlesnakes couldn't get him out of his hole before Wednesday. Same with the Wellstones. I don't know what is up with former Republican governor Arnie Carlson's grandstanding today, speaking of reptiles.

Who really thinks Paul Wellstone would have come out politicking this past weekend had the circumstances between him and Coleman been reversed? Not me. That is one of the many great ironies in all of this. Senator Wellstone certainly wouldn't have condoned any of this shit. Wellstone wouldn't have behaved the way Daschle has--ever. Wellstone never would have condoned the back room deals being
"leaked" to the press less than 48 hours after the crash. That one must have come as a very bitter pill for the Wellstone family to swallow.

Crisis and catastrophe always bring out the best and the worst in people, and we tend to see people for who they truly are. And in the case of politics, we tend to remember them that way for a VERY long time, which is a poetic justice of sorts as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 10:24 PM

Guest, I don't agree that the grieving of Wellstone's family and friends is more important than who controls the Senate. But I totally agree with what you said about "... the media justifying their appalling behavior, by saying "the election is only a few days away, so we have to report this."

The Democrats, and Republicans, in general DID need to think about the political aftermath right after the crash, because crucial decisions needed to be made in very little time. But the general public does NOT need to hear the speculations and punditry of the media's talking heads right now. There is no valid reason I can see why the media couldn't have kept a respectful silence on those issues until after Wellstone's memorial -- and until they actually had some facts to report instead of making predictions.

If there are questionable legal shenanigans going on in the interim, that's the real shame. But if the media know that those shenanigans are going on -- as opposed to just having heard rumors, they do have a responsibility to report it.

Genie

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 10:55 PM

Same old crap, Paul... Wish you were here.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:11 AM

The lead story in today's Minneapolis paper starts out thus:

"A shaky four-day politicking truce, agreed to Friday to mourn U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone's death, is barely holding, as Republicans and DFLers accused each other of violating the spirit of the deal."

We then go on to read that only about half the US Senate will attend (guess which half that will be), and Trent Lott (required by protocol to attend I'm guessing). The president select, according to Bush administration sources, is not required by protocol to attend the funeral of a sitting US senator, but the VP select is. Except he won't be attending either. According to Bush administration sources, Cheney won't be attending because the family didn't want him! Ouch!

So much for the eulogies and respecting the memory of the man, rather than dissing one's political opponents. I'd say the Republicans shunning the Wellstone funeral is about as low as you can go. And I thought we'd be past all that today. Apparently not.

And Genie, I understand that to people outside Minnesota, who didn't know any of the people killed, that the race is more important TO THEM. My point is that it is not more important TO US. But it doesn't matter now, because the politicians and media whores have behaved so appallingly, it doesn't even matter anymore. The entire fiasco has been so hurtful, and done so much damage politically here in Minnesota, that at the end of today, it is us who will be left to clean up the damage inflicted on so many really sincere, genuine people who have devoted their lives to the cause of politics and public service because Paul Wellstone inspired them to get involved, and believe that politics really isn't evil. On top of the loss of the human beings here, we are also dealing with the death of a certain idealism that really didn't have to die along with Wellstone.

Or maybe it did. This whole unseemly fiasco will most definitely result in some people turning their backs on politics, and never being involved again. But it will galvanize and radicalize others to remain active. Some will withdraw from the Democratic party because of sheer disgust with the leadership and the way they conducted themselves in the past few days. Others will become all the more hardened and cynical--and become more partisanly entrenched in party politics than they ever would have had they, their senator and candidate and his family, been treated better at this time.

Congratulations cynics, you won. By refusing to respect the living and deciding that disrespecting the dead was a political necessity for your side, you defeated everything Paul Wellstone stood for, and made it all about crass politics instead. Pat yourselves on the back, and give yourselves credit for having bulldozed right over the democratic wing of the Democratic party, and crushing them once and for all here in Minnesota, along with the lives of grieving families and friends of the actual human being who held the senate seat. As you blindly marched right over us on your way to your Beltway victories in this all important election, I'm sure that as Patriotic Americans (tm), you must be very proud of your loyalties to your brand identities, be they Democrat, Republican, CNN, or Fox.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

And here is more cheerful news for cynics from the St. Paul Pioneer Press today:

Posted on Tue, Oct. 29, 2002   

Tragedy quick to go on sale
BY JIM MCCARTNEY
Pioneer Press

It was only a matter of minutes after Sen. Paul Wellstone's plane crash became national news Friday that Wellstone memorabilia started popping up for sale on eBay, the Internet auction site.

Wellstone road signs (bidding started at $10), trading cards (yes, a company puts out U.S. senator trading cards), books, bar coasters and photos have hit the site. Even a tape of a 1991 Twin Cities radio show about the end of the Gulf War that talks about Wellstone.

A "rare" Wellstone trading card would be a "wonderful way to commemorate the senator," writes one eBay seller, who put the item up for sale at 2:24 p.m. Friday.

"Obviously," most of the 20 plus sellers of Wellstone memorabilia are "trying to cash in on a tragedy," said Victor Mongeau of Legacy Historical Antiques, an Albuquerque, N.M.-based specialist in political memorabilia.

"I'm surprised that they would do this so soon,'' said Rick Frese, a government professor at Bentley College in Waltham, Mass., and avid collector of political memorabilia.

"I can see some loyal supporters wanting to save their posters or lawn signs. But I'm a little surprised that people would try to exploit this 'instant market.' "

EBay officials are not surprised. There was a spike in memorabilia items on the site following the deaths of baseball great Joe DiMaggio, cartoonist Charles Schulz, and John F. Kennedy Jr., said Kevin Pursglove, a spokesman for San Jose, Calif.-based eBay. When racecar driver Dale Earnhardt was killed at the 2001 Daytona 500, items for sale related to Earnhardt went from less than 900 to 3,700 within hours, and now hovers above 14,000.

One seller on eBay claimed to be a little conflicted about selling his signed copy ("To Buck, My very best to you, Paul") of Wellstone's book, "The Conscience of a Liberal.'' Still, he's drawing the highest bids among the memorabilia — $60 on Monday afternoon with three days to go in the bidding.

Speculators who buy the items as investments rather than keepsakes will likely be disappointed, since interest in Wellstone memorabilia will likely be restricted to Minnesota, Mongeau said.

"Now, an assassination would have been one thing," he said. "But a plane crash — that could be considered an act of God."

Ironically, Mongeau says, the biggest beneficiaries of the tragic event may be those who have Walter Mondale political memorabilia.

"If Mondale replaces Wellstone in the race, it will thrust him into the national spotlight again," he said.

In fact, there were some 74 Mondale items for sale on eBay Monday afternoon — 43 of which were listed after the plane crash Friday. There were no items listed on eBay for the Republican challenger for Wellstone's U.S. Senate seat, Norm Coleman.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:19 AM

Hm... Maybe that's why my Wellstone lawn sign was stolen.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:47 AM

THAT is sick! eBay shouldn't allow it.

GUEST, please reread my last posting and my previous ones. I think you over-reacted just a bit to my last one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:51 AM

Guest, I hope that that idealism will not have died with the Wellstones. And I doubt that it will, though there is not likely to be a worthy successor with Paul Wellstone's political standing in the near future.
Re whether it's more important to Minnesotans to grieve the people lost in that plane crash or deal with the upcoming election, I say this:
Sometimes we find we must, and can, deal with crucial, immediate practical concerns before we can let ourselves really deal with the personal grieving over the death of a loved one.
But again I completely concur that the mass media and many politicians have been far too concerned, too quickly, with 'hearing themselves talk' about what's gonna happen next in DC, when they should have honored the 4-day moritorium and let Minnesota bury the dead first. Almost as clear-cut a case of crass commercialism as that e-Bay stuff!

Genie

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:51 PM

katlaughing, I just reread my post which only intially was in response to yours. You weren't the cynic I was referring to, the media whores and political pundits driving the madness machine were the ones I was referring to. Apologies if I made it sound as if that part of my criticism was directed toward you. That was not my intention, and I can see how it reads that way now.

I only meant to disagree with you that the election was more important than the waiting until after the funerals to resume the campaigns, and to disagree that the Minnesota race should be seen as more important in national terms (ie which party will control the Senate), than local terms. I don't believe that partisan national agendas trump the local agendas, even in what pundits claim will be a close election and which party will control the House and Senate. We have candidates for the senate race from I don't know how many political parties here in Minnesota, but we have 3 very viable political parties in this state, and a growing 4th party (the Greens), all of whom are running candidates for the senate.   In the governor race, the third party candidate is in a statistical dead heat with Democrat and Republican candidates. So our party dynamic in Minnesota is much different than anything on the national level. The Green Party and Independence Party senate candidates are very much a party of the Wellstone/Coleman race, because the polls showed the two candidates in a statistical tie. The national "balance of power" arguments are about which party will win the two party politics game. It is much more complicated here, because of third party candidates figuring so prominently as spoilers and very real contenders for public office. We have a third party government, and enough third party elected officials at lower levels of local government, where nobody counts them out and automatically dismisses them anymore. Not since The Body entered our politics, and Nader/La Duke not only took over 5% of the vote in the last national election, but got Green Party candidates elected to various offices on their coattails as well.

IMO, the main reason why people aren't concerned with who controls Congress is that they only see Congress as one monolithic group, not as two ideologically different parties. I mean, the entire Congress keeps voting for the Bush agenda, so really, there isn't much to distinguish the two parties right now. People pretty much see all national level electoral politicians as the spineless reptiles they truly are. Or as I think it was Barbara Boxer said in her remarks about Wellstone yesterday, most of the Congress is too afraid to come down on the losing side of a vote to act out of conscience with conviction.

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Ha! Like Boxer has any room to talk about Congressmen being spineless!

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:15 PM

Genie, the practical realities were being dealt with by Minnesotans. What is more "life must go on" than having to plan funerals and memorial services, and all the other practical realities that need attending to in the wake of eight people being killed in a single catastrophic accident. Add to that that one of the parties killed was a sitting US Senator, and you can see how people were a little busy with details, like "what the hell happened" and "who is going to do what" and "who do we call for this"--some of which DID deal with the upcoming elections, but most of it really truly was the need for Wellstone campaign and Senate staffers needing to take care of all the business at once.

The last thing they needed was a DFL hack campaigning for Mondale in the media on Friday afternoon, before the fire from the crash was even extinguished, and then leaking the details of the Wellstone family's attempts to do the painful work of meeting with possible replacements for their father to CNN as a trial balloon for their guy.

Ever try planning both a private family funeral for three family members, a public memorial for eight people and their families to broadcast nationally, with politicos and dignitaries coming from all over hell and creation during a close senate campaign to boot? No? Neither have I. Imagine that some of us thought the Wellstone family and campaign, as well as all the state political offices (like the Secretary of State and Attorney General) needed some time and privacy to sort a very complex situation out. Hatch was at the prayer vigil on Friday night, and I heard someone in front of me say to someone they were with "Hey there's Hatch--should we go tell him "shoulda waited 'til Monday, eh?" I think all of us would have been fine waiting for the details from those offices until Monday, because no campaigning was going on over the weekend anyway (supposedly), and they never stopped mailing absentee ballots. But hell folks, this happened on a Friday. It all could easily have waited until Wednesday anyway, considering it was so damn close to the election, most of it wasn't going to matter anyway. We Minnesotans would have appreciated it if ego maniacs looking for their political 15 minutes of fame had refrained from carrying out all the tedious business that had to be dealt with in front of national TV cameras...

Is it so wrong to say so? I mean c'mon, we aren't idiots here in Minnesota, nor are we so overcome with grief that we aren't taking care of the business that gets taken care of in the wake of a tragedy like this. It was all being done. It was all being dealt with. Nobody was holding anything back from anyone, they simply weren't talking about what they were doing and/or thinking about doing publicly is all.

As to the idealism being crushed--it has happened, mostly with the young Wellstone supporters who are so turned off by all this. They are angry, and they feel betrayed by the party, because the party showed so little respect for Wellstone, his family, and them. I know one kid who had gotten an internship with the campaign this fall who was a poli sci major at the University. He quit yesterday in disgust over the whole fiasco, and was sobbing when I met him in front of the campaign offices yesterday afternoon. What the hell do people expect when you slap people around who have just had their hearts broken, and their dreams dashed like that?

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:20 PM

Thanks, GUEST, I had read it that way. I appreciate the clarification.

I agree, wholeheartedly, that there should be NO campaiging until the funerals are done. I thought I had stated that.

It is fascintating to learn more about a state which actually supports more than the usual two parties and I agree somewhat with your take on what Congress has become. However, Congress being of one, blended accord, pales when compared to a truly one party state such as Wyoming.

I hope that all Americans will really think about the other parties available and work for real changes, as it is obvious Wellstone and his fellow Minnesotans have done.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Obit: Senator Wellstone, plane crash
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:34 PM

Actually katlaughing, Wellstone didn't work for any party but the Democratic party--he was rabidly partisan. Though very good friends and colleagues with people from other parties, he would work with them only if the work didn't interfere with the Democratic agenda he was pursuing.

Right now, I wouldn't say most of his fellow Minnesotans are cooperating all that well either, as has been made plain in the past 48 hours. In fact, come tomorrow morning, there will be a cooperative blood bathing among politicians interested solely in ripping at each others throats and going for the jugulars of their opponents. Politics is still very much a blood sport here, we just spread it around more than y'all do in Wyoming. ;-)