Songs in Odd Time Signatures

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:18 AM

Nice to see this thread resurrected. I also didn't know that Brubeck did not write Take Five.

Kaleea, I think my high school concert band played something by Nelhybel...could it have been something called "Alla Turcotta"? (We're talking all the way back to 1969, so my memory is just a teeny bit rusty! It was actually the All-Philadelphia Concert Band, come to think of it...) I can vaguely remember the melody, and I think it had changing accents from measure to measure, if not changing meter.

I believe Mason Williams wrote a song in 5/4 called Three-Legged Waltz. I remember practically nothing of it except 1.6 lines from the chorus:

I love to waltz, it
Has its faults...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,Master McGrath
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:01 AM

Unsquare dance is in 3/4 in the right hand and kinda 2/4 in the left.
English Tapestry used to do a song in 5/4- an old music hall one called drop and carry one.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: pavane
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:13 AM

2/4 in one hand and 3/4 in the other wouldn't be anything like 7/4

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:54 AM

Desmond (Paul) who plays horn in the immortal Brubeck Quartet recording of Take Five wrote the song, and Brubeck has always said so. However, he did write it for the Quartet to play -- I mean, that's what he was doing at the time. I don't know anyone who has ever asserted that Paul didn't write it.

A

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:18 AM

Coope Boyes and Simpson do Rufford Park Poachers in 5/8, 5/8, 5/8, 8/8. Lyrics here. Brilliant!

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: radriano
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM

5/4 time is not an odd signature. It only seems odd because many people are so used to everything being in 4/4, 3/4, or 3/4. If you look at the Copper Family Songbook you'll note that quite a few songs even shift time signatures.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM

Oh, you sad little people!!--you think you know odd meters, but you haven't played odd meters until you've played in a Balkan dance band--5/ and 7/ are child's play--try keeping 25/16 straight at a tempo quick enough to keep the dancers happy--worse is the dreaded Albanian dance meter called Berance--some say alternates 5/16 with 7/16--others say it is more of an 11/16 with a bit of a drag on the first beat--

By the way, for those who don't understand the concept--3,5,7, 9, and 11, subsequent alternating intergers are "odd numbers", whereas 2.4.6,8 et al, are "even numbers":-)

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:09 PM

Being somewhat of a musical illiterate, I can't fully comprehend many of the comments in this thread, although I find them interesting. The only thing about time I can add is something I'm still learning, and my old folk finger picking (and even blues picking styles) are often a millstone around my neck.

In black gospel, the singer feels free to hold notes, change rhythms, build momentum, pause or do whatever the spirit moves him (or her to do.) People who play piano or keyboards and accompany black gospel singers have developed a sixth sense to flow with the singer, shifting gears, emphasizing the back beat when the song builds, or drop to a soft pattern of chords... often all in the same song, with no advanced warning. (On top of that, solo singers often just get up and start singing, and it's up to the accompanyist to figure out what key they're in, and then get into the rhythm and expression of the singer.

In the last couple of months (after six years of playing guitar to accompany black gospel) a door seems to be opening. Not only am I feeling the song in rhythms I'm not familiar with (and am not even musically literate enough to even know what some of the time signatures are) I'm finding totally different ways of playing guitar and breaking up rhythms as the song progresses. And it can be different every time. This whole shifting rhythms within a song seems common in black gospel, and even though I can play some rudimentary blues "licks" blues settles into a groove and tends to stay there, with improvisation, vocally and instrumentally, flowing around the "groove."

Like most of us, when I first learned folk and blues guitar, I spent hours practicing picking patterns and rhythms untill they became almost automatic. Then I've spent the rest of my life trying to break free from the patterns that I often find very limiting, as a singer. Playing in a group requires more discipline in order for everyone to stay in time, but I am primarily a singer who tries to use instruments to respond to the singing. Responding is totally different than just accompanying.

I'm not sure any of this makes any sense, but I felt like adding it..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 09:53 PM

Re. The Rufford Park Poachers.

I see that the Coope Boyes & Simpson website describes the song simply as "traditional", which isn't quite accurate. It was recorded by Percy Grainger from Joseph Taylor of Brigg in 1906 (Grainger noted the tune in a combination of 2/4, 3/4 and 5/8), but Mr Taylor remembered only part of the song (verses 1, 2 and 5 of the text referred to). There were no other known versions, and the rest (verses 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8) was written much later by Patrick O'Shaughnessy, based on a contemporary report of the trial (see Patrick O'Shaughnessy, More Folk Songs from Lincolnshire, Oxford University Press 1971, for a detailed account). No doubt they give the proper credits on the record itself.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: NobleSavage
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:39 AM

One simple way to get a handle on 'socket wrench' time signatures is to think of them in one of the usually acctpted conventions of long and short beats--long beat is 123, short is 12.

123 12 12--'long' seven, 12 12 123--'short' seven (usually faster)
123 12--5 (usually Bulgarian or Greek. the opposite is often found in Macedonian music (12 123) The dance known as 'sede danka' is the one in 25/16. 123 12 12+123 12 12+12 12 123 12 12.

And so on. . .

Those are some of the more common ones the casual musician may encounter when sampling Balkan Music, but there are others, some different combinations of compound rhythmns, some are other divisions of 'standard' rhythmns.
I have played a song in 7 that is divided 1+12 12 12--it is Albanian.

It is wise to remember that native Balkan musicians don't think of these rhythmns in 'neat' divisions the way we've been taught to--they often play the long and short beats with varying and different time values--the long beats may be just a little longer or shorter, likewise for the short ones--I've heard rhythmns that seem to contain 'half' beats or *almost* half, or?

It's really very organic.

NS

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:08 AM

I am also a musical illiterate, but I know that "The Heights of Alba" has an odd timing. I think it's in the mudcat lyrics collection. Margaret Cristal has a nice recording of it.

I always enjoy watching the Tamburitzans, when they perform. They do a great deal of Balkan music, and they make it look very easy.

I learned to do a Macedonian folk dance called (I probably misspelled this) Bouchemeese. The timing was one of the reasons it took me four years to get the break right. The other being that Macedonians are very athletic dancers.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:01 PM

The music that you're playing is really very complex--with multiple layers of rhythm, and with room for fairly elaborate rhythmic improvisation by any or all of the voices. The great thing about it that you can join in by playing very simple rhythmic ideas, and still make an important contribution--over time, you learn more and more about what is possible while you are playing, and in this way, you become better and better--The most amazing thing is that even the best players and singers keep finding new things in the music--

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

My comment was addressed to Jerry--for some reason LadyJean and NobleSavage's comments didn't turn up on my browser til after I posted--

LadyJean is quite right about the Tammies, who, over the years, have tended to be the source and inspiration for many of the American bands groups that have worked with Balkan music--oh, and"Bucemis" tends to be the way it is spelled--

Macedonian music tends to have irregular durations--I was once told that it allowed the dancers space to move in their own way for jumps and such things, while Bulgarian music tended to be precise and on the beat because Bulgarians like to be tight and together when they dance--I am wary of generalizations, but it tends to be a practical rule of thumb, at least when you play the music that Int'l folkdancers like to dance to--

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM

A quick flip through Silber's "Songs of the Civil War" finds "Billy Barlow" in 3/8. Otherwise there are lots of 2/4 and 6/8 and cut time. I know that I've played in 12/8, 9/8, and a bunch that change time when you get into the peice (which seems unfair somehow). Brel's "Marieke" is in 6/4; I'll have to try that.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: s&r
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM

We have a video of how to dance Irish set dances; the presenter says, "this is danced to a count of seven - one two three four five six sev - ven"

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:41 PM

That's Irish Humour, s&r... :-)
Robin

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: NobleSavage
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:38 AM

When in doubt, give the dancers what they want, I always say. . . It's just not the same without 'em.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: s&r
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:10 PM

Robin - Irish humour gives us a lot of pleasure since our daughter married an Irish Farmer. I'm never sure however when I'm getting my leg pulled.

I could never work out the car park sign in Dublin which had three options:

Full
Spaces
Nearly Full (!)

Perhaps we're too used to having officialdom that's a bit po-faces

Stu

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:59 PM

NS--I have always maintained that you haven't really mastered a tune unless people can actually dance to it--

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

s&r

Tip for understanding Irish Humour - always assume that it may be an attempt to pull your leg- even in the most serious circumstanes - the Irish have a profound sense of Gallows Humour - just like the Jewish....

the trick with dealing with it is to not overreact - or the joke is on you...

Some of the driest English humourous Literature was written by Irish Writers who were wrongly assumed to be English...

Youu HAVE to have a sense of humour to grow potatoes...

Robin

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 08:14 PM

I think that two of the best examples of English folk music in odd time signatures are by Brass Monkey. They did 'Riding down to Portsmouth' in 7/4 and 'Rambling Comber' in 5/4. These are both based on old recordings of country and traditional singers who actually sung the songs like this, but the Brass Monkey arrangements are fabulous.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM

When in the SCA - the process of teaching the galliard involved very seriously telling us dancers that it was danced to a five beat - one two three pause four five...

but I can assure you that there was no humour invooved...


Robin

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,Hamish - lost my cookie!
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:59 AM

Coope Boyes and Simpson do Rufford Parl Poachers in 5/8, 5/8, 5/8, 8/8 - brilliant!

Martin Carthy's fantastic version of Byker Hill is in 9/8 but the meter's divided up as 2/2/2/3.

And I don't know what on earth's going on in John Warner's Anderson's Coast. I daren't analyse it or I'm sure I'd lose the swing.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: NobleSavage
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:33 AM

Consider the fact that 'dance' music grew and evloved to be danced to.

It it my opinion that who would play a dance tune, (whatever the tradition it comes from) properly--must play it (if possible) for the dance it grew around.

It is the task of the musician to make the dance audible, as it is the task of the dancer to make the music visible, (insofar as the word 'task' applies)--replace task with whatever term you feel appropriate. . .

Playing the tune never feels complete to me until that happens.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:18 AM

This afternoon, I posted the Footboy, from The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs. The time signature was shown as 6/4 4/4, alternating measures of 6/4 and 6/4. I've never seen a time signature like that. Is that a standard way of writing it?
-Joe Offer-

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: s&r
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:00 PM

What's SCA Robin?

Joe: could the Footboy be anothe species of hemiola (as in a previous thread)?

Stu

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:33 PM

www.sca.org

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:53 PM

Let's get real. The concept that there's any time signature at all is relatively modern and relatively sophisticated. Traditional singers used any timing and phrasing they liked--time signatures were imposed by the collectors that tried to write the stuff down.
    Clearly, dance music was a different story.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:33 AM

Well, sort of true and sort of not true, Dick--the fact that time signatures were not used doesn't mean that the music didn't have definite metrical cadences, they were clearly notated in the repeating patterns in the notation--time signatures and measures just made it easier to see them--

The lyrics to folksongs have rhyme schemes and metrical patterns and these are the real underlying "Time signatures"--but, as you say, traditional singers did what they liked with them--there being no reason not to, save if it was for dancing(and a lot of places had traditions of dancing to unaccompanied singing)--

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,Celeste
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:27 PM

I'm looking for the three legged lady who danced with the two legged man. I thought it was 5/4 time.