BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: John P
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:49 AM

I agree that this isn't about gay marriage at all. It's an election year so they get it out of storage and wave it around until they get their huge network of bigot churches to tell everyone to go vote Republican. No one who is putting these things on the agenda gives a rat's ass about it.

Wouldn't it be fun, though, to start a drive to have consititutional amendments requiring us to turn the other cheek? To love our enemies? To take adulterers outside the city and stone them to death? Isn't it true that wearing cloth woven of two fabrics is an abomination, just like homosexuality?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:00 AM

"The Roman Catholic Church then bullied its way in?"

JiK. I do comprehend that you live in North America (including physically residing there), but I was thinking some many centuries earlier, when 'those damned pagans' in Europe and Britain were bamboozled by those carpetbaggin' monks...


:P

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM

Ok Robin. I was zoned in on US history, since it seemed to be a US thing we might be discussing here, due to the recent resident manipulators; pandering to the fundies again.

But there are more recent (than the assualt on the pagans) historical precedents for what's going on in the US now. At the moment I'm committed to a meeting I need to prep for, but I'll try to be back in a few hours.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM

Most of the Republicans I know here in Maine are embarrassed by the Bush Gang. They do wish they could just take their tax breaks and go back to sleep, but they keep waking up during the night with the most bizarre dreams.

My niece Michelle Goldberg just put out a new book THE RISE OF THE CHRISTAIN RIGHT. If you want to read something really scary...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:04 PM

Correction: Michelle Goldberg's new book is entitled KINGDOM COMING: The Rise of Christian Nationalism.

Whatever!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:12 PM

"Robert Heinlein explored the subject in one of his books - the Davis family if memory serves, but I don't remember off the top which one it was. "

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is the book, which also expounds on Rational Anachism

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:14 PM

Anarchism...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:10 PM

Thanks, Charlie. I just read the review on Amazon and added it to my list. A matter of considerable concern me, as it should be to a lot of people. Including liberal Christians, many of whom, fortunately, are getting pretty fed up with the religious Right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:57 PM

I doubt that Bush or his "Conservative" supporters in this Marriage Amendment particularly care whether it passes, although it's not impossible that there may be some who actually are "true believers." It seems clear that that this is primarily for the benefit of the "fundies" who seem to be the main source of votes for the current Congress and Administration.

It should not be brushed off as an "It'll never happen" thing though. As of the present, 37 States have passed Amendments to their State Constitutions incorporating what is now being proposed for the US Constitution. Nearly all of the remaining states have recently passed new statutes with essentially the same effect, or in a few cases have reasserted and in some cases reinterpreted older laws.

Should we have a Congress sufficiently ignorant and/or uncaring to send this amendment to the states, IT WOULD MOST LIKELY PASS AND BE RATIFIED if put to votes in the states, in the US of today.

If good Christians (and others) who believe that something other than the "perfectness of one's anus" may influence their arrival in heaven DON'T OBJECT VIGOROUSLY, and SOON, it is the intent of the fundamentalists to impose their religious law in the US, and they do not intend to stop with one Amendment. As long as they can deliver the votes they will have the willing cooperation of our current crop of politicians. Regretably, it is immensely clear that they probably can succeed if current political trends are allowed to continue.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:02 PM

This nation was not conceived as a vehicle for imposing moral strictures on each other, at least not by the Founding Fathers.

To imply that the Constitution is a meet vehicle for this kind of preachery and shallow moralistic dictatorship is to degrade the entire spirit of the greatest experiment in social inventions ever tried --- the notion that people could live in mutual respect of self-determination.

To conceive of such a thing is to announce one's own woeful ignorance of the whole purpose and meaning of the charter documents of the nation.

The Bill of Rights

The Constitution of the United States

The English Bill of Rights after James II, 1689

Madison's Intent and Philosophy regarding the U.S. Bill of Rights

The Declaration of Independence

Other Founding Documents

Bush and his cronies are flagrantly displaying abysmal ignorance of these documents and the principles they established, and they should be laughed out of the capitol for it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:16 PM

Of course if all those 36% voted for Bushdom they'd get a lot more votes than they did last time round. Don't anybody relax and think it's in the bag.

I suppose theidea of a constutution where nothing ever gets removed, but the changes are just added, like that one they apparently have in Massachusetts, is to guarantee work for lawyers like the ones who wrote it. Clever lot these New England lawyers...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:39 PM

why don't we just ban marriage for everybody ..homosexuals, lesbians AND the silent majority.

As almost half of marriages now end in divorce, and most of the others stagger on in abject misery, the "partners" too lazy, cowardly, or desensitised to make a run for it and get a life, banning the institution of marriage would seem to solve many problems. Not only the homosexual circus, but the damage done to our children by warring parents, many of whom are unfit to bring up a dog never mind a child.
Todays parents are more interested in safeguarding their "space" and lifestyle than in the mental wellbeing of their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM

JohninKS and Charley Noble, thanks for your postings. Fearful as it may seem, John has it right in that the MAJORITY needs to speak up NOW or we will be governed by the "Christian Nationalists" as Charley's niece has termed them. If anyone missed her interview on NPR a few weeks back, I would urge you to seek it out and listen. She is one brave and smart young woman. I hope the rest of her generation follow suite and VOTE, as well as all others who want to save our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM

Need new reading glasses - keep seeing this thread title as "Fag Marriage..."..............

Justice Kirby, one of the Senior Judges in Australia, has finally made a public statement (he has never ben secretive about it before, just never said anything publicly, and has never been maliciously "outed") about his live in Male Partner. He still claims to be a practising Anglican, and regularly wries to the local Bishops, every time they make a public anti-gay statement - pointing out that each gay person has brothers, sisters, other family members, and that's a LOT of people to upset...

Perhaps our American friends might like to take THAT idea and run with it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:48 PM

I believe that the Anglican church is the Episcopal church that we're familiar with in the US. They/It is famously accepting of those outside the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM

My Lutheran Minister (who was a distant family relation) used to say:

"Remember - Practising Christians haven't got it Perfect yet!"

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:43 PM

On the subject of the homophobia expressed by the current fundies, but many years ago when similar "movements" were evident, a very devout and very well educated minister gave a series of discussions for the "Youth" of the church where I attended, in which he discussed his own doctoral and postdoctoral dissertations on his own translations of surviving writings from both New and Old Testament times.

Most of the "Youth" were college level students, and several were intending to proceed to seminary. He showed facsimiles of a number of "writings," a small part of his collection, and impressed us all with his documentation and validation of sources, and the discussion was at a quite intellectual level.

At his conclusion of a full and thoughtful discussion of the Sodom episode in Leviticus, one of the pre-seminarians asked:

"So how did the Southern Baptists come up with their interpretation?"

His answer was quite direct:

"Obviously their translator was a pervert."

It may be the only thing I am quite sure that I remember exactly from the sessions; but I've not seen a contradiction of that opinion in the succeeding 50 years.

The good (my opinion) Rev. Dr. Bruce E. M. departed shortly thereafter to a post of Director of Educational Publishing at the headquarters for the American Baptist Convention. I regret sincerely having heard nothing more of him since.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:50 AM

That's a briliant answer, JOhn, though I am sure the Southern Baptists aren't the nly ones to have perverted translators! Speaking of which, one of my fav. books remains the Metaphysical Bible Dictonary by Chas. Fillmore. Very useful in finding what the actual Aramiac(sp) meaning was of a word and what the symbology is behind words of the Bible. It helps when combatting such ignorance as this *amendment.*

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:18 AM

According to a junior member from LA, divorces are now the fault of gay marriages:

But win or lose, Vitter and other supporters said it's important that the Senate debate the issue.

"We spend a lot of time here in the Capitol debating a lot of domestic and social issues, and yet so many of those issues start in the home," Vitter said. "And the greatest predictor of success in life is a strong, two-parent family and the right upbringing for a child."

Vitter said that voters in his state want "their wishes honored" on the marriage issue and are worried about seeing them overturned by judges.

Asked by a reporter how the amendment would help deal with the problem of divorce and deadbeat fathers among heterosexual couples, Vitter said it's important for Congress to deal with those issues as well.

"But I think recent history has shown that when marriage has been radically redefined, then it ceases to have any meaning and any significance in the life of a society," Vitter said.

So, he must agree with Ake's suggestion that we do away with marriage altogether!

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:41 AM

Buncha effing criminals, you ask me. Talk about PREverts, making political hay out of that dear and precious document is about as PREverted as you can get. Chaps me byuttocks, it do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:42 PM

I suppose I would be consider by some as a right winger something or other.

I am a believer that this mess didn't get its' start from some slime that washed ashore. Have been registered as a Repub for the second half of my voting 'career'. Not sure where that party is headed these days.

With that bit of background, I was happy to hear a few minutes ago the the proposed Amendment to the Constituion did not get off the ground.
Gay marriage should be considered an oxymoron to those that travel the road as I do. However, I see nothing wrong with the Domestic Partners title. I know of brothers who have never married, live on the old homestead and totally share. There are some States' laws that have eliminated the benefits that these people are entitled to.

I noted in a paragraph on my former company's info sheet on health insurance that was sent to all concerning the new prescription benefits offered under Medicade. "Includes....,Domestic Partners...."
Never notice that before but never gave it any thought also. All I was interested in was the continuing benefits provided as part of an early retirement package.

Again, we seem to focus too much of our time on minor things. What percentage of the citizens are Gay? 3 - 5%? And unlike the Hetrosexual mob with their 50% divorce rate, they would not be contributing to the amount of children that currently go without as a result of broken homes and subsequent reduced incomes.

"Protection of Marriage" - A good idea with regard to the divorce rate. Just keep the Feds out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:23 PM

Michelle Goldman, Charlie Noble's niece, was interviewed on "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross. Thanks for the head's up on that, Kat. I managed to track it down and listen to it. Well worth the time. Folks can listen to it HERE.

You know, people tend to snort "conspiracy theory" when anyone gets worked up about possible plots to take over control of the government, but dammit all, there are power-hungry factions out there, and so far, the PNAC and the Christain Nationalists seem to be succeeding. They're entrenched in the government and they're in the White House.   

"The sky is falling!" my ass!!!

I'm quite sure that there were people in Germany in the 1930s who snorted "That's just a conspiracy theory. That can't happen here!" I wonder how they felt later when they found themselves staring out from behind the barbed wire.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Bill Brillo
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:32 PM

Not my country, not my law. Isn't it the duty of government to ensure fair treatment for all its citizens so, regardless of creed, colour or belief, people in similar situations should pay similar taxes, get similar benefits and have similar responsibilities. Religions have their own rules, one chooses to join a religion and live according to it's rules. We see what happens when Religions run countries (Iran). By the way, the Anglican/Episcopalian church is not a Protestant church it is a Catholic (as opposed to Roman Catholic) one, check out the Nicene (Nicean) Creed!

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM

Good point (s), Mr Brillo

Part of the reason for some to live by the rules of a religion is the dictates of same. The Golden Rule works as do the 10 Commandments, even if one does not pay strict attenton to the first 4.

While I consider myself a follower of the Bible, I am of the opinion we are violating/ignoring the rights of citizens with the various State laws that have been passed in the last several years.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:13 PM

I am pleased that the Senate did not let the Amendment Discriminating Against Gays go anywhere; but it is still (IMHO) shameful that they had to even discuss something that should have been laughed out of court before it got to Capitol Hill. Ptui.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:41 PM

Don-

Thanks for providing the link to the NPR interview with Michelle Goldberg, author of KINGDOM COMING: The Rise of Christian Nationalism. My mother says this book is really scary so you should think long and hard about whether you want to assume the responsibility of becoming more fully informed. JudyB and I are planning to do that soon!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:49 PM

"unlike the Hetrosexual mob with their 50% divorce rate, they would not be contributing to the amount of children that currently go without as a result of broken homes and subsequent reduced incomes."

Hate to spoil a good punchline, but SOME such couples ARE determined that they WILL have children 'raised in a loving environment', in spite of some very basic biological hinderances...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:55 PM

"I wonder how they felt later when they found themselves staring out from behind the barbed wire. "

Moot Point. Most of them didn't do that for very long...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 09:53 PM

From a poet who is arguably the greatest Candain singer-songwriter of modern times:

Patriots shout promises,
And fools salute a flag,
While the country that it represents
Is torn apart like rags.
It's not just done in fact -- it's done in deeds.
My country 'tis of thee.

Rich man left you helpless,
With his bank account intact.
Poor folks never had it --
Can't ask us to put it back.
It hurts me deep inside to see you bleed;
Country, 'tis of thee.

(Excerpted from "Country 'Tis of Thee", by B. Murdoch).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flag Marriage and Gay Burning
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:11 AM

Article IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Article X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

These are the most ignored articles. The federal government has no authority to take things or matters into their own hands that they are not specifically empowered to do in your Constitution. If all else fails, there is always the second ammendment, which means it would make it very hard to burn gays without consequences, if they dont want to be burned.

Yours, Aye. Dave