BS: Global positioning system

Subject: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:38 PM

Anyone got/use a hand-held GPS device? As I prepare to go into the forest here on Vancouver Island hunting mushrooms in the fall I was wondering if they are accurate enough to re-find good spots. They'd need to be within a few feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:46 PM

I swear, BigPinkLad, I thought that DG had started another thread warning of Big Brother. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:52 PM

They'll refind within a few minutes pretty damn accurately - the best demo I've seen was someone driving around a roundabout about 15ft diameter, and a nice circle appearing on the screen. But over time their accuracy drifts, so if you followed a route and then returned to your starting point, there's no guarantee the trace would join up more accurately than 10-20 yards at best.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:52 PM

Here's a paper on Returning To A Position that may help. There is quite a lot of material on the Net about GPS accuracy just type gps-accuracy into Google.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:01 PM

Interestingly the small GPS's used in Yacts and Fishing boats tend to be more accurate than Admiralty Charts, at least on the smaller chart scales.

Never fix your "way points" to directly at a Navigation Mark - Without a good look out and change of course you could end up with loud expensive crunching noises !

Fact - I've cox'ed the marker launch in some Radar/GPS surveys on the Medway.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:33 PM

I have tested them with an accuracy of + - 2 meters. The Garmin company makes good ones.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:48 PM

Years ago I taught map and compass classes in the Mountaineers in Washington State (the basic climbing course). For all that GPS units are the way to go now, it pays to know how to use the map and compass and to carry them with you. I do hope they're still part of the Mountaineer's 10 Essentials list. Yup. Did a quick search--on the Mountaineers 10 essentials list, numbers 1 and 2 are still map and compass.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:15 PM

Depends not only on the number of satellites that you are receiving information from but also which ones they are. The reason for that involves spherical trig, so it can be a little difficult unless you are fairly good at math.

The short answer is that the accuracy you read on the GPS is fairly accurate, and can vary from the above mentioned ± 2M to around ±15M.

One other thing that should be mentioned is that for maximum accuracy in re-finding a spot, mark your position and find your position in the same data system. GPS's will convert between different ones, but I've found that it does introduce another error.

Good luck! I carry mine everwhere!

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:30 PM

Learn to use a map and compass!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Do you want to be at the bequest and whim of international forces? A simple scrambling of the signal and you could be led into an enclosuer where you are V-chipped, hypnotized, drugged, and indoctrinated! Satalites are pawns of the ruling government. Be INDEPENDENT! Only the non-techno will survive!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 01:59 AM

Whoa, twice in one year, Gargoyle agreed with me! Wonders never cease!

SRS

I didn't offer the drugged and indoctrinated scenario, tho, I was just thinking along the lines of falling off of a cliff in the dark or the rain).

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:13 AM

The military released them originally for public use with a built in error, so they would have the advantage, in a war!! However the later models, are more accurate, and some companies sell ancillary bits to remove this error. I use an LMS 240 on my boat, and I find it's spot on, but I always back it up with visual notes. Do the same, and you can't go wrong.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: fogie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:40 AM

You guys with compasses wait until the magnetic poles swithch- that'll larn ye! Anyone feel strongly about the need for two sets of GPS -the other one the EU is going to set up? This is supposed to be more accurate, than the present American one, and of course doesnt rely on the USA, should they consider pulling the plug, in event of a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:29 AM

We Europeans are jealous of don't trust GPS because it's made in theUSA we like to take a belt and braces approach to ensure that there's a backup system in case of failure. So we're going to spend Eu15Bn on one of our own! That'll teach you Americans, won't it? Damn! You got there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 09:04 AM

I have one, but rarely use it. Too much trouble and too slow to get three satellite fixes when I can pull out a compass and triangulate to within a few meter on a topo map in less than half the time.

Like SRS, I worry about dropping it. Or the batteries going dead without having replacements. Either of these things would happen when the need for it was critical.

If I needed to send someone my location I'd prefer a GPS since I don't know how to use a sextant. But if I'm lost there are other ways to show your location.

If you're looking to locate your patch of mushrooms, though, I'd suggest a map something like Cap'n Kidd used to show where he buried his treasure. A good mushroom patch is very much the same thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:21 PM

Giok:

The military did not add in error, exactly; they just limited the precision of the data that could be computed by civilian equipment. But that is out of the way now, a historical tidbit and no more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:52 PM

Gargoyle/Rapaire, I can read a map, learned in the Boy Scouts and have a passion for them bordering on obsession. However, they don't help at all in finding one's way back to a square metre of duff in the middle of the forest -- millions of trees that look almost exactly alike! (As a matter of fact, I can't find a decent map of Vancouver Island anywhere). I need something that will record where I am precisely so I can get back to the same spot a year from now. I thought a GPS devise would help. What should I be paying for one anyway, and do they need maintainance?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:39 PM

I know how to navigate by the stars, use a sextant, etc. After the first batch got over the growing pains and the feds released the other satellites, GPS is the way to go. Combined with an electronic emergency signal or EPIRB, it makes sailing a lot less risky. Not that I don't trust my own skills, but the best great navigation can do for you in an emergency is to give you the satisfaction of plotting exzctly where you died.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:10 PM

You can make yourself your own map, diagramming landmarks and pacing off distances. This will certainly date me, but in my Forest Service days of drawing maps (I drew lots of them to document reforestation surveys, thinning surveys, planting patterns, etc) it was a simple matter of choosing a point to start from, choosing the direction you were going to travel, watch your compass as you travel in that direction, and count your paces. We used "chains" as the unit of measure back then, sixty-six feet, and my pace was 13 1/2 paces per chain. Now they use 100' engineering tapes, but regardless of the unit of measure, simply measure the distance, make several passes to figure how many paces (the full stride, right, left, right) travel that distance, then keep count as you walk and make notes. If it isn't intruding on the wildness of the location (or advertising your spot) you could even build a cairn or use a bit of flagging down low at intervals to look for when you return. It isn't difficult.

If you find the mushrooms then make the map on your way out, every time you stop, TURN AROUND AND LOOK TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE because you need to see it from both directions or it will be difficult to find when you try to return even with the map.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:14 PM

Let's see now........Mushrooms; Aisle three, Produce, left hand side, about 3/4 of the way to the rear of the store.......6 varieties.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:17 PM

Is that what those little orange ribbons all over the bush are? Forestry markers? If you're in WA you're my next-door neighbour (or neighbor, even ;o) so I'm sure you're familiar with the type of forest I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:22 PM

How do you think they get there, Spaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:35 PM

PinkLad,

You can get good GPS for a couple of hundred dollars today. Garmin makes good ones.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:42 PM

Way back in 1963 my pace measured 104 steps to 100 meters, or 26 paces to 25 meters. Oddly enough, every time since then that I've had the chance to check the pace it's been exactly the same. (That's measured going and coming over broken ground.)

You'd be surprised how accurate you can get with a compass and pacing (no map).

I'd be willing to bet that the USGS has a topo map of Vancouver Island. I doubt that it would be considered classified military secrets, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:18 PM

The plastic flagging denotes different activities for the Forest Service and other forestry related organizations. Blue is used for partial cut areas, yellow for clearcuts, if you happen to be in or cross over an area laid out for logging. Other colors have to do with surveys and such. The idea is not to decorate the forest like christmastime with the stuff. A small piece (a few inches), not a huge long hank of it, placed at (for example) the point where you stop going one direction and change your course, is useful. A cairn would be less obtrusive, less obvious to all but those who are looking for it. Or look for landmarks that aren't going to go away easily and thus leave little trace of your travel.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:35 PM

Flagging comes on rolls with a hollow cardboard center of about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. The roll can start out about 5 inches across, and was usually first placed in the large side pocket of a cruiser's vest. As soon as it was small enough to fit into the breast pocket of the blue workshirts we typically worked in, it was put in there. Button the pocket, let the end hang out the top corner, and it was really handy to just pull the end, spinning the roll in your pocket and pulling off a chunk. Despite the convenience, it always felt a bit odd because it was rotating around my left nipple. (o) (o)

Yes, I know precisely the kind of forest you're talking about. I crave getting back to that climate from the heat of the Texas prairie. I'll trade devil's club for ticks, chiggars, venomous snakes, and 100+ degree days any time! Heck, that's why I'm laid up this month--I had my bunion fixed so I can hike again if I ever get back up there!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:01 PM

You did not advance far enough in Boy Scout map-reading....the "pin-pointing" of a particular spot is done through triangulation....when you can't see the forest for the trees you use p-lines....contours....terrain and species.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: beadie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:04 PM

I just picked up a Garmin unit a couple of weeks ago. The salesguy said (and I have no real reason to doubt him, since he said this after I bought the unit) that the local National Guard troops who were being called up for overseas duty were advised by their NCOs to put the government issue GPS units in the dumpster and go buy a civilian model because they were more reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:13 PM

Who is "you," Gargoyle? I've used all of those things. P-lines (preliminary lines) in the kind of forest he's walking through can just about finish you off. If you're planning a road you have to go over everything in the path along the proposed center line, often along an elevation contour, and it can be rugged. Why not suggest he run a profile from his car to his mushrooms? In my Forest Service work it meant you went straight in one direction up or down everything in the direct path of that bering until you had a clean shot from one point to another, with no ridges or such interfering with the movement of the cable that might be thousands of feet long (for a logging system).

Best for him to walk where it is easy to walk, marking landmarks as he goes, pacing it off, and if a marker is necessary, make one (as described above).

Fastest way to find where he is is to climb a tree and triangulate from there. Assuming there are any that are the suitable size for climbing (small enough). (I can't recommend a laundry cleaner for removing all of the pitch from your clothing if you do climb a tree--so climb at your own risk!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:21 PM

A lot easier to set a waypoint and let the unit steer you back to it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:39 AM

Key word here is _Forest_, I reckon.
Thick leaf cover can block the handheld GPS unit's view of those satellites, and reduce accuracy. But it's worth a go, the Garmin e-trex series are great little units, I use one for geocaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:01 AM

I have a GPS310 by Global Positioning Systems, UK. Cost about 100 UKP and I am very pleased with it. What sold it to me rather the the cheaper Garmin unit was that it did UK grid references as well as lat/long. Not much good in Canada I know but...

The lower price ones do not guarantee the accuracy that The BPL needs though. I think mine only promises to be within 15 metres. Go for a more expensive one if you need pin-point stuff.

My mate Ged said more or less the same as Garg the first time I used it. We split into 2 parties and about 3 hours later Ged phoned us - lost! I do agree though about the ability to use map and compass. I use the GPS as much for fun as anything - It realy is good to have two sets of references. But I guess I realy am paranoid;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:02 AM

Sorry, for the ambiguity... the "you" is the Pinky of 29, July 3:53. For yourself Mr. Sage....PineSol (used in the USA for cleaning toilets and bathroom) poured directly on the pitch stains will removed the resins from cotton/poly blend fabrics in the regular wash cycle.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

That makes sense, and is easy to remember.

Now what I'd like, when all of this is said and done, is a photo of TheBigPinkLad up atop a relatively youthful (therefore still climbable) Douglas fir, compass in one hand, GPS unit in the other, triangulating on his mushroom patch location. Which he hopefully doesn't squash after slithering uncontrollably back down the bole of his tree. . .

;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:07 PM

So if you don't hear from me after mid-September tell my wife she can donate my Gretch electric to the Mudcat auction ... ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:50 PM

Try a mix of kerosene and turps to thin out the pine tar. Then pretreat the clothing with a good detergent. It should do the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: BanjoRay
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:19 PM

My Garmin GPS is wonderful -it always knows exactly where it is. I, However, don't. All I know is it's somewhere around Meall a Buachaille in the Cairngorm mountains. I'm going to have to use old fashioned navigation methodology to locate a shop where I can obtain another one.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:13 PM

Nice bits of kit, but crap in cover - never trust your life to one! As has been said repeatedly, learn map & compass skills and work out your pacing until you can do it in your sleep, then carry the GPS as a backup.
Too many people have got into serious trouble relying on GPS. Besides, the false sense of security they bring tends to bring out the worst sort of people into the cuds. A bit like the effect AOL had on the Internet!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 03:00 PM

Or as most RYA courses tell yer, use the GPS but be prepared to back it up with traditional methods of Navigation.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:46 PM

Germany

Canada

Rip the things out of your cars. Now. International terrorists have taken over all major govts and are beginning the massive taxation practices which will fund the 'perpetual war'. And you will be expected to pay for your own extermination partly through road-usage taxes calculated on readings from the GPS devices. Your pension funds will fail, your jobs will be converted to twenty-dollar-a-day busy work as the govts steal your land for failure to pay taxes. You will be herded into compact cities for eventual fumigation. All because you just had to have that GPS device. Take a hammer to it.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:49 AM

Hey, Dreaded Guest, haven't seen you around for a while. Or perhaps we're not frequenting the same threads lately. Looks like you're running up to your usual speed!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:17 PM

Hi Sage. So do you think summer is finally here? I'm a couple hundred miles south of you I think, and it finally hit a hundred degrees. Dog days.

Me, I've just been trying to alert people as delicately as I can to the fact that the barrel is pressed against the back of our heads and the hammer is cocked. But you know...folks want to talk about Bonnie Prince Billy and Schwarzenegger and such. And the marvelous new GPS systems. So I bark every once in a while. It's getting harder for people to deny the obvious, though. The old 'tin-foil hat' routine...'scuse me. That always makes me chuckle. Cops in black ski masks everywhere now, hovercraft/chips/cameras gonna police us, and people are still saying 'tin-foil hat kook' like some kind of rosary. The power of denial.

Hope all is well with you. Stay cool.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:17 PM

DG--I hear on the Bill Moyer Now program that the House and Senate gave Bush MORE than he asked for in the Defense budget. You might want to listen to the program--Moyers is working hard to find a few nay-sayers to the Resident's plans for all of us.

It has been up in the 100+ degree range for most of July, and didn't disappoint for the first day of August. Dog days indeed!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:39 AM

Sorry, Sage, but Bill Moyers is a member of the CFR, and that group's stated goal is the dissolution of the United States. Among other things. Scroll down to the middle of the page and look at the television membership. All those people looking into the camera and lying to you...telling you America is bouncing back when THEY are helping to formulate and implement policies to kill this country. I can rarely watch TV anymore. It's ALL propaganda. Rather and Brokaw and Moyers plotting how to kill the US and then telling me 'the market took an upswing' just to divert me.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:49 AM

You can always bring your laptop with the wireless modem, and when you're thoroughly lost just log-in to Mudcat. My favorite answer is "Milky Way Galaxy" when my wife wants to know where we are in the boat as we're socked in by fog.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 01:37 PM

Council on Foreign Relations Mission

Council History

"The Council on Foreign Relations is dedicated to increasing America's understanding of the world and contributing ideas to U.S. foreign policy. The Council accomplishes this mainly by promoting constructive debates and discussions, clarifying world issues, and publishing Foreign Affairs, the leading journal on global issues.

Goals:
1. Add value to the public debate on international affairs.

2. Energize foreign policy discussions nationwide by making the Council a truly national organization with membership across the country.

3. Identify and nurture the next generation of foreign policy leaders.

4. Make the Council the source for ideas and clear and accurate information on key international issues for the interested public."

Yeah. Sounds really dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 01:44 PM

I have just installed GPS units on all of my guitar picks. I haven't lost one since. Sure they're a little unwieldy to play guitar with now...

...but they NEVER drop in the soundhole anymore.

and if they did, I'd know which end of the guitar to tip up to get it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:25 PM

Ulrike Marie Meinhof - journalist; member of Germany's "Baader-Meinhof" gang of the late 1960s and early 1970s
born on 10-7-1934 in Oldenburg, Germany
expired 5-9-1976 in Stuttgart, Germany   age 41   cause: hanged (prison suicide)

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:05 AM

Aww, DG--Joan Ganz Cooney is on that list--she's mother to Big Bird, Elmo, Bert and Ernie--and she's right there with Moyer. You're going to have to work a lot harder to convince me that this new world order is starting early, with toddlers. ;-)

I wonder if Oscar the Grouch carries around GPS in his trash can? Grouch Positioning System?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 09:33 AM

There are thousands of quotes by those people about how they are first going to get your kids, then you.

California...liberal...Feinstein and Boxer as Senators...support 'abortion rights'. The right of a woman to choose, blah blah blah. But they are Soviets. They are social engineers of the first order. The mega-govt the 'right wing' is putting together is going to be put into gear by the Feinstein/Boxers of the US. And THEN liberals will discover what's really going on. The phony distractions about political correctness will be crushed under the boot of totalitarianism. What good is 'the freedom to use my body as I choose' when that body is in a concentration camp?

Study that list. Those organizations TELL YOU what they want to do. The Bushes have said Communist China is the model for the future. The ChiComs now have travelling death vans that go province to province executing 'criminals'. Tens of millions of political prisoners. That is the future of world govt, according to the CFR.

But then you all know this. Your liberal Sierra Club steals land, your liberal gay rights cause just set up a 'gay high school' in New York. Like the good old days when the 'negroes' were separate but equal. Ruled unconstituional long ago yet here it is again...a gay high school so liberals can feel good about themselves. God you people don't think things through. The right wing you froth about is just getting the machinery ready to turn over to the Stalinistas, and most of you will go happily to your deaths rather than offend the sensitivities of the Chinese troops fixing to blow your heads off.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:12 AM

wow.

Doesn't Roswell, NM figure into it anywhere?