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Do purists really exist?
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:56 AM Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get. For an ethnomusicologist, the continuity of the practice is what makes it distinctive. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 06:58 AM "Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get" True to a point Jack, though I do know some Northern Clubs specialised in them Personally, I despise them almost as much as I do the bernaric practice the sclebrate " music hall songs, rock music etc can do the same to us and future " They may well - not sure what the youth of the future will make of 'Nellie Dean' Beside the point - they ain't folk songs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM Didn't quite finish What Steve is describing isn't progression or development - it's acculturation - one culture taking over and replacing another It's certainly not progress - it's a return to the times when everybody was trying to sound like Guthrie or Leadbelly Wonder if people would be happy to see Morris replaced by Line-dancing Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:27 AM Be careful what you prophesy, Jim... line dancing is amazingly popular, very socially inclusive - and probably already far more practised than Morris. Dance Near You: Line Dancing Classes From the website: Whatever you have heard previously about line dancing... put those thoughts aside and embrace the new culture of line dancing in the modern 20th century. Contrary to popular opinion Line dancing was not invented by cowboys. Line dancing has its origins initially in the 1960's soul music scene in America, Followed in the 70's by the trend of dancing in lines in the discos,.in the 80's along came Billy Ray Cyrus and his video to Achy Breaky Heart and it was only really then that line dancing took off in the UK. Modern line dance clubs teach to music from all genres to all styles of music, including soul, rock or pop, latin music, Irish, salsa, and big band music as well as country and western. It's easy for beginners to learn and offers more energetic and complex routines for the more experienced. From the first lesson beginners will be able to enjoy dancing to a whole range of line dance routines. Don't care for it myself, but it's very popular and - I'm told - great fun to do. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:34 AM Who said they were folk songs? Not me- I'm not getting into that, been there before & it just ends in tears. 'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day- not up to our generation to make a judgment on that. I don't want to be called names, so will just carry on doing what I do, 'folk' or not & not worrying about it- the purists can do that |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM "Who said they were folk songs? Not me-" Why bring them up Whethet you said it is immaterial - enough peopl have claimd some of them to be folk songs in order to sing them at folk clubs "and probably already far more practised than Morris." I have no doubt of that Will, jus as I have no doubt pop songs are more widely listened to and sung than folk songs "'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day-" Very doubtful - it is sentimentalised imagery based on an idyllic picture of country life I'm not calling you or anybody names - people who use the term "purist" do that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM "Who said they were folk songs? Not me-" Why bring them up Whethet you said it is immaterial - enough peopl have claimd some of them to be folk songs in order to sing them at folk clubs "and probably already far more practised than Morris." I have no doubt of that Will, jus as I have no doubt pop songs are more widely listened to and sung than folk songs "'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day-" Very doubtful - it is sentimentalised imagery based on an idyllic picture of country life I'm not calling you or anybody names - people who use the term "purist" do that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 AM Jack wrote:- Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get. Very true and my contacts with the people who uphold this tradition (only through talking to them at traditional music weekends) suggests that as a community they are feeling more isolated. There are few grounds for regarding these songs as anything other than an ongoing tradition and the fact that new songs are entering their repertoire and these are subject to oral change enhances that opinion. This brings me to another thought. Clearly if the tradition is the voice of the people then it will change to reflect changes the views of the people. Fox hunting songs are not so well received in clubs/singarounds are they were as more and more it comes to be regarded as a cruel and deservedly outlawed activity. I would not like to see them banned, mainly because of their vitality and their historic importance in rural Britain. A lot depends in the context they are sung in and the way they are introduced. Similarly, blatently misogynist songs are much less heard these days. I have been in audiences where women have audibly groaned as some of the greater excesses of these songs.... and why shouldn't they? I must have heard the Copper Family singing Oh! Good Ale hundreds of times over the 50-odd years that I have known them. Back in the 1960s they used to sing really lustily.... ....And if my wife should me despise In his last few years Bob Copper had great difficulty with these lines. I can remember him, more than once pausing, looking upwards as if speaking to his dead wife and saying, "You know I wouldn't, love, it's just in the words of the song!" Similarly there were times when I really cringed when Belle Stewart sung Blue Blazing Blind Drunk and laughing as she sang - ...When Alex gets home I get battered, I can remember thinking, "It isn't funny, Belle. Domestic violence is a curse." but, weakly, I just buttoned my lip rather than speaking out. A third and last example. A few years ago at our folk club one of our best floor singers sang The Jew's Garden and I was approached at the end of the evening by one of our regulars was clearly incensed and approached me and he told me fimly that I should not have 'allowed' that song to be sung. My reply was that I was the club's organiser and not its censor and that we could not pretend that anti-semitism did not exist then and now in British society. Once again, the context was everything and if there any suggestion that the singer was advocating racism, I would have said so when I was back-announcing him and condemned him for it, but it is a difficult issue for all that. Some singers make subtle changes to the words to deal with this. My wife, Tina, makes a great job of singing Gathering Rushes. One time I noticed that a new word (the underlined one) had been inserted - Was it by a black haired man ... and I feel that by doing so, I am sure that she is emphasising the original meaning. When the adults in my extended family were talking during my boyhood in Edinburgh about 'a grey wuman' or 'a ginger laddie' it was the hair that was being referred to. In modern multi-cultural Britain, 'a black man' means something different. It was reading - and agreeing with - Jack's thoughts on hunting songs and Jim Bainbridge's thoughts of the appropriate mixture of song and venue that have led to my sharing these thoughts, After all, if a song loses its function it is unlikely to continue to be sung. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 22 Dec 18 - 09:04 AM No Jim- YOU said Nellie Dean & suchlike are not folksongs. I certainly wouldn't be interested in defining whether it is or not, but this statement implies you know what IS a folk song- YOU brought it up, not me! And also you have no right to say what will become the folksongs of the future- not your choice, fortunately. Nellie Dean would be a fascinating study for social ethnomusicologists of the 23nd century- no doubt some singing circle of the future will dig it up & there are worse songs around today. that's enough from me- have just been passed a pint & a plate of mince pies, so Merry Christmas & Happy new year to all at mudcat |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:14 AM "YOU said Nellie Dean & suchlike are not folksongs. I" They aren't - unless you can specify why they are - Repetition has nothing to do with folk or tradition - Nellie Dean is an old pop song - if we didn't already know that we have a recording of Walter Pardon insisting it (and others like it were Nellie Dean doesn't need an ethnologist to decide what it is - it is what is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:30 AM This is a song written by my friend, neighbour and a lovely guy Paul Openshaw. Probably plays jigs, reels - all that sort of trad stuff I don't really get better than anyone I know - and I know quite a few/ I'm not sure he's met Jim Carroll, but they're both gentlemen. The meeting place is music - even if its no longer the folk club. Folkie You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the urge You do not have the urge for a lengthy lament or a dirge A lengthy lament or a dirge is not the way you fill your spot But, you think of yourself as a folkie because nobody says that you’re not You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the zest You do not have the zest because with two left feet you are blessed With two left feet you are blessed and so you do not have a chance You do not have a chance when somebody asks you to dance When somebody asks you to dance, everything goes to pot But, you think of yourself as a folkie because nobody says that you’re not You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the skill You do not have the skill to twitter or to trill To twitter or to trill is not the way you bat And you don’t stick a finger in your ear, or anywhere else come to that But if there is nobody else, and you are all they have got You think of yourself as a folkie because nobody tells you you’re not Paul J Openshaw (December 2018) |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,Modette Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:41 AM Brilliant, Al! Thanks for that. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:53 AM In order to promote clarification, it needs to be pointed out that opinions differ as to whether Nellie Dean is a folk song or not. * Some would say, as has been stated above, that it is an old pop song and therefore does not qualify. * Others would say that it does qualify as a folk song because, thinking of the process of songs changing and developing in various ways in the tongues of singers which in now considered the central factor rather than the origin of the song. For this reason it has been treated like other songs that fit with this approach, it has been accorded a number in the Roud Index (30035). This means that the only fair thing that we can say is that:- There is a difference of opinion as to whether Nellie Dean is a folk song or not. This opinion will depend on which explanation of what constitutes a folk song is accepted by the person making the statement. We have to listen to who is speaking and why they are saying it. Certainly Nellie Dean was in the repertoire of many English traditional singers of the 20th century along with other songs that can be traced to author(s). Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. Everybody has the right to express their opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM "Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. " A definition is a definition Vic - if this is a folk song the cvlaimants need to say why It is a early 20th century song of known authorship It appears nto have not gone through any process to produce variants It has not become regionalism in any way It is not narrative as the bulk of our repertoire is It lacks any form of charactarisasation There is no evidence that anybody has claimed it as being their own, or Norfolk or Esat Sussex - It remains as it was first created - "a sentimental ballad in common time by Henry W. Armstrong, published in 1905 by M. Witmark & Sons of New York City. If all songs sung by traditional singers were 'folk' the term is meaningless and we have been wasting our lives pretending otherwise, which is some of the nonsense been peddled by some which is robbing our tradition of its unique identity Not something I'm willing to put my name to Why isn't \The Birdie song a folk song ; or The National Anthem, or Viva Espania People who think folk songs aren't "brilliant" - they just don't like folk songs#] Sorry 'bout that Al Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM "Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. " A definition is a definition Vic - if this is a folk song the cvlaimants need to say why It is a early 20th century song of known authorship It appears nto have not gone through any process to produce variants It has not become regionalism in any way It is not narrative as the bulk of our repertoire is It lacks any form of charactarisasation There is no evidence that anybody has claimed it as being their own, or Norfolk or Esat Sussex - It remains as it was first created - "a sentimental ballad in common time by Henry W. Armstrong, published in 1905 by M. Witmark & Sons of New York City. If all songs sung by traditional singers were 'folk' the term is meaningless and we have been wasting our lives pretending otherwise, which is some of the nonsense been peddled by some which is robbing our tradition of its unique identity Not something I'm willing to put my name to Why isn't \The Birdie song a folk song ; or The National Anthem, or Viva Espania People who think folk songs aren't "brilliant" - they just don't like folk songs#] Sorry 'bout that Al Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,Kenny B(inactive) Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:54 AM Dear Mr Sandman thank you for reminding me of Don Quixote who has an obvious relevance in this thread regarding purists, his "baldrick" Sancho Panza and his "high horse" Rocinante A read of the Wiki quotes below may illustrate the subtle and appreciated humour of your posting to other interested parties encore! The story follows the adventures of a noble (hidalgo) named Alonso Quixano who reads so many chivalric romances that he loses his sanity and decides to become a knight-errant (caballero andante), reviving chivalry and serving his country, under the name Don Quixote de la Mancha. He recruits a simple farmer, Sancho Panza, as his squire, who often employs a unique, earthy wit in dealing with Don Quixote's rhetorical orations on antiquated knighthood. Don Quixote, in the first part of the book, does not see the world for what it is and prefers to imagine that he is living out a knightly story. Rocinante (Spanish pronunciation: [ro?i'nante]) is Don Quixote's horse in the novel Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes. In many ways, Rocinante is not only Don Quixote's horse, but also his double: like Don Quixote, he is awkward, past his prime, and engaged in a task beyond his capacities.[1][2] |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Dec 18 - 02:53 PM Yes , but you don't get it - what Paul's song is saying. Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger. If people say you're a folkie - you're bloody stuck with it mate. Personally I'd rather be regarded as a boulevardier - charismatic, good looking and musically talented. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: The Sandman Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:52 AM D3efinitions are produced by scholars,it enables categorisation and reminds me of nineteenth century butterfly colectors, music however evolves and changes |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:19 AM Definitions are in order to identify what you are talking about, they guide evering in life that we do Do away with them and you cease communicating with each other -n this case, lack or manipulation of them to suit personal ends stands to lose us our folk songs as it has lost us many of our folk clubs and in some cases cann affect people's lives - I've just had a PM from someone wo relies strongly on getting bookins from folk clubs but can no longer do so because he sings traditional songs "Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger." No it certainly isn't Al - it's whether you sing folk songs, and that depends on knowing what a folk song is Here we have a situation that 'Nellie Dean" (a song written by an American boxing promoter at the beginning of the 20th century) might be an English folk song while at the same time traditional ballads that heve been sung by the folk for centuries and are regarded and described as the "the high watermark of the oral tradition" ot "The Muckle (big) songs" are "inappropriate. I despair, I really do. Happy Crimbo all - off to listen to a lorra=lorra traditional music and songs tonight in Dublin, where they have no doubt what their traditional music is and are proud of it Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:24 AM "-n this case, lack or manipulation of them to suit personal end" Sorry keyboard playing the maggot Should read "in this case - lack of understanding or manipulation of them to suit personal ends" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Dec 18 - 06:00 AM "Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger." No it certainly isn't Al - it's whether you sing folk songs, and that depends on knowing what a folk song is you can't control what people decide you are. doubtless Hitler would have preferred to be remembered as the great benfactor. merry christmas , no one in my Dublin family would have known a folksong from a fart. a very unmusical lot! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM I think what Jim C meant was that there are a few people in Dublin in a few locations 'who know what their traditional music is' not that Dublin is a lost world of traditional music! If you've been taken in by the crap from Bord Failte about Temple Bar, Doolin etc, you'll know better than that |
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