BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:10 PM

Life is too short to be evangelical about anything. Except that right now - Collings makes the best production guitars on the planet.

I usually expect folkies to be pretty tolerant about most things. That's why I'm suprised at how testy some folks get when others talk about religion. It would be one thing if there were dozens of posts telling folks they were going straight to hell unless they repent and are "washed in the blood of the lamb". But I don't see that here. I'm fine with others want to believe - but I do object when some folks here want to insult others for their beliefs.

FYI - I wasn't responsable for the Spanish Inquisition - and I've given up burning athiests at the stake. But don't tempt me to break out the matches.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:15 PM

Geeze, Wesley, even 'special forces' are using Bic lighters . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:19 PM

HEATHENS - I will pray for them..........

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:24 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

Those BIC lighters are the Devil's playthings. ANyone could see that plainly if they would only look.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

Don Firth - it isn't faith on my side, it's a logical conclusion from data - a theory, if you will, like gravity. On the faith side is, however, just faith.

We celebrate midwinter, not $mas, but we do it AT $mas - because that is when people have time off.

This is a real question. I would ask it in much softer tones if it weren't driving me up a wall. Thank you in advance for answering the issue, not the tone, thanks.
I would like to know, as I have asked before, why should people be entitled to ignorance? I'm talking *only* about the believers who, when presented with a demonstrable reality which disproves their faith, deny reality rather than amending their faith - people who'd take their kids out of biology class for bible-thumping reasons, so all you rational theist don't get your knickers in a twist. But why should that be a right? I thought kids had a right to an education? What about adults? Why should I think that they are "entitled to their [counter to reality] beliefs" or respect beliefs which are demonstrably and already known to be false?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

You've loaded your questions with enough phrases as to make it unanswerable - unless you believe exactly the same way as you do. As in "How long has it been since you beat your wife".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:55 PM

Mrzzy, I expect some people behave in the manner you inquire about for the same reasons you pose a very subjective, value-laden question in which you appear to assume that your beliefs about 'right', your assumptions about 'ignorance', and your perceptions of 'reality,' are fact, instead of belief.

In short, people nearly always act like people.

Big surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM

I'm a "rational theist?" Since when have I been any kind of theist?

I'm with ranger 1 here. "I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business."

I don't need anyone to tell me what to believe. I do have beliefs, but I'm open to new data, and that new data may very well prompt me to change those beliefs. I have heard the best arguments there are for the existence of God (Thomas Aquinas and a whole bunch of others) and I've heard the best arguments from the atheist viewpoint. I find that in both cases, the proponents start with their conclusion and then try to "reverse engineer" to prove their belief. That's bound to skew the "logic." The best "logical" arguments of all for the existence of God are Aquinas's, and even they have gaping holes in them. The most rigorously logical arguments I've encountered for the non-existence of God were put forth by Ayn Rand (yes, that Ayn Rand!). They, too, are full of holes.

IF there is a God, a Creator of the universe (consider how immense the universe is, and then consider the idea, put forth by recent cosmologists such as Michio Kaku, that this "universe" we inhabit is merely one of a huge number of "mulitverses," further complicated by multiple dimensions), then any Entity who could have created this is so far beyond our comprehension that for someone to say that they "know the mind of God" or are "doing God's will" borders on the ludicrous. I also maintain that those Creationists who believe that the universe is only 6000 years old, that there was a literal Adam and Eve, and all that goes with it—well, they worship a very puny God. Little better that a minor wizard.

But this is not to say that life does not have a spiritual dimension.

One area for consideration:    In that realm of multiverses, and multidimentsions that modern cosmologists and string-theorists are contemplating lies a possible explanation for the occasional manifestation of what might be called "paranormal phenomena" experienced by perfectly sane and reliable people. "Leakage" between dimensions? A rift in the membrane between our universe and the one next door?

Or the matter of an Afterlife? Perhaps, when we die, our awareness ("soul," if you insist) merely slips into another universe or dimension, just as physical as the one we currently inhabit. Or not.

Perhaps the God that people worship as if He were a benevolent father is actually a lab technician and we are merely a culture in a cosmic Petri dish. I wonder what the nature of the experiment might be? And how, do you suppose, are we doing?

Do I believe any of this? No. But I don't know that it isn't the case, either. The true nature of reality are best summed up by geneticist and evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane, who said, "the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."

Being totally, rigidly, and absolutely imbedded in a body of belief that brooks no new information and refuses to adapt when new information is presented is to close the door on true knowledge and growth. If one holds that, one is as good as dead already.

I have no trouble reconciling science (dedicated to revising and updating when new evidence is presented) and religion—provided it is the kind of religion that is open to Mystery and is not rigidly dogmatic and authoritarian.

There are things that we will never know. Get over it!

Holy crap!! I think I'm starting to talk like Little Hawk!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:11 PM

That is one profound conclusion, there, Miss Janie.

Mrrz, I would also offer the possibility that there are at least two -- perhaps many -- universes of discourse being confused here.

A scientist, totally aside from his professional activities, has to answer for himself whether or not there even EXISTS a spiritual universe of discourse. This is not an easy question, given (among other things) that the sphere is so subjective and that it has had so many strange items and attributes assigned to it.

The general undercurrent of most of these assertions from the whole spectrum of human spiritual assertions seems to be that it is not a realm contained by space-time as it is knwon and practiced on by scientists. That being liely, it is quite understandable that there may be things that function in such a domain that are completely, absolutely, demonstrably false in another.

In addition to the clear domain of matter and energy operating in space-time, which is the proper domain of sciences relating to phsyical universe phenomena, and a possible second domain of spiritual existence (and possibly interaction) outside (or co-imposed wholly or partially on or through) the ordinary space-time continuum, there is a third domain which is even more treacherous and hard to figger on than either of these.

This is the domain of human agreement, in which created ideas, opinions, and realities are erected based on persuasion free of proof, and usually quite free of heuristics or empirical measurement. All by itself this domain is a sticky, messy, volatile and irrational soup. When mixed up as it always is with domains 1 and 2, it gets even more so. All this adds up to some really disparate takes on what is or is not acceptable data, credible reality, or honorable methods of acquiring data and accepting or rejecting it.

That's my $,02 worth on the question. There may well be other domains in play I haven't mentioned or noticed.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:12 PM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:17 PM

I'm not talking about when I have opinions - I'm talking about demonstrable evidence, like DNA for evolution, geological evidence that the planet is more than 6k years old, and so on. No "belief" involved - these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief - ***unless you are willing to deny reality*** to protect your beliefs.
I ask, why should I respect that denial? Where is the right of the faithful to be ignorant of facts?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

But you assume that all people of faith think the same way. I belive in a higher power - but it's not the old man with a beard. And I ALSO believe in evolution and that the planet is older than 6,000 years old. It's not as cut and dried as you think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

If someone believes in G-d, does anyone think that a G-d capable of creating a universe or a multiplicity of universes would have any difficulty creating a universe that appeared to be billions of years old yet is only 6,000? People, if yer gonna use logic, use it.

Some of you have by recognizing that G-d is a belief. But then, some science is based on belief, too. Go figure . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

". . . these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief."

Until and unless proven otherwise. That is the nature of science.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:39 PM

Probably in the same location as your right to lump all of the 'faithful' into that last sentence.

You certainly have the right to do that, as far as I am concerned. But that is my value-laden judgement, and not an objective reality.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

All triangles have 180 degrees (interior angles). That holds true until someone draws a triangle on a globe, and then it has 270 degrees. Then someone defines triangle as figure drawn on a flat surface, as if such a thing is at all possible in a universe that is curved. Even flat surfaces aren't flat.

We each believe in things because to do otherwise would force us all to live in split-level realities. How DO you describe the direction 'left' when you and the entity to whom you are giving the direction have nothing in common?

Science has its foibles, because scientists are humans, not gods. I would no more put science on a pedestal than I would religion. I trust neither anymore. They have each lied to protect their respective 'positions of authority'. Remember the "Rule of 48".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

For several days, I resisted the temptation to look into this discussion. I figured (correctly) that much of what would be written would be drearily predictable, and (incorrectly) that it would quickly run out of steam.

As time went on and the list of responses grew so exponentially, I finally yielded to temptation and started reading. It's taken a couple of days to work my way to the end; you all have been writing in new stuff just about as quickly as I can read!

A couple of observations:

On separation of church and state: Yes, no one agrees more readily than I that sectarian religious issues and disagreements have no place in secular public discourse. Most of us here, theists and atheists alike, seem to agree on this, and also seem to agree that there are way too many fundamentalists out there who threaten this boundary.

However, every citizen has the right and indeed the duty to follow whatever moral imperatives that he/she truly believes when acting in the public arena, as a voter or even a candidiate or officeholder. Whether said convictions are "religious" or not is beside the point.

Years ago, as a young adult, I joined with many others in various acts of civil disobedience in support of the moral convictions that racial discrimination must be eradicated, and that conscription into the kill-or-be-killed arena of warfare (especially, undeclared warfare) must be resisted. Many of us involved in these movements acted out of some kind of secular-humanist set of values, but just as many if not more were deeply involved in one or another religious tradition. How many names of ministers and priests, etc., do I need to drop to illustrate this point? Let's see, Martin Luther King, Dan Berrigan, Desmond Tutu...

Today's situation, where the most fervent exponents of moral resistance to civil authority generally espouse positions with which I do not necessarily agree, is somewhat problematic. I cannot be persuaded that abortion, however distateful, is morally equivalent to killing a human being who has been born ~ but I understand how it is that someone else might hold the opposite opinion, and I recognize exactly how and why such a person might feel morally obligated to act upon his/her convictions.

I simply expect that today's fundamentalist protesters observe the same rules about civil disobedience that were expected of us "new-leftists" 40-some-odd years ago: (1) only nonviolent civil disobedience carries any moral authority at all, and (2) every participant is expected to proudly and willingly accept whatever punishment the civil authorities decide to dole out.

In other words, to cite the most extreme example, holier-than-thou egomaniacs who murder doctors are nobody's moral superiors. Not only are they obviously guilty as sin, they set back their own causes.

If and when I observe people with whom I disagree to act upon their convictions in a responsible and civilized manner, I understand exactly where they're coming from and grant them my grudging admiration, whether or they've been the least bit successful in modifying my viewpoint or altering my own convictions.

On another related note:

I think that there is a more meaningful distinction between believers in a spiritual dimension ("theistic" or not) versus flat-out nihilists than there is between believers in God and non-believers. As pointed out above, Buddhism and Taoism are more accurately classified as "non-theistic philospohies" than as "religions," because even though they promote study of tne mysterious Unseen, they do not generally believe in petitional prayer or the possibility of miracles. For adherents of these spiritual systems, "prayer" or meditation is the activity of aligning oneself with spiritual truth, not a request for intervention on the part of a supernatural personality. Nothing more than a matter of "getting right with God," to rephrase it in familar western/Christian terms, and not really so alien a concept for believers.

I am equally comfortable feeling commonality with that type of "non-theist," with agnostics and "seekers," and with the vast majority of reasonable and charitable non-fundamental religionists. On the other hand, I find myself absolutely at odds with those who deny the existence of anything they can't see with their own eyes, just as irrevocably as with the smallest-minded, most puritanical, most fundamentalist literal interpreters of the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever hard-and-fast rulebook to which they've sworn allegiance.

Oh yeah, one more thing: to everything Little Hawk has written here, Amen. (And to much of what many others have said, too; I don't mean to slight anyone. But LH seems to be very much on the same wavelength as I am when it comnes to this kind of topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

Little Jenny: "God sorta looks like Santa on a cross."

There are major religions and then there are serious religions.
Judaism is major but not serious. After aits followers are only Jewish. Evaangelicals don't call themselves Christianish. Evangelicals are a serious religion but not a major religion, except for its use by the Republican party.
Islam is both major and serious. Islamic law can get you stoned but not in the good way. Cartoons and teddy bears can all conspire against you by Islamic law.
Buddism is major with a minor in seriousness, while Hinduism has a flavor for everything under the sun, especially sex.
Catholocism has a lock on both serious and major with its grand wahzzoo Pope and all its little chess pieces below.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Poppa
I prefer sex over sectarian or secular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

"Judaism is major but not serious."


                Why would we say Judaism is not serious? It's done a lot of serious damage to the Palastinians.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

From the post by Guest Ed that started this thread:
"God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways""

From 2R2RA:

"This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me."

Yes, obviously, this was a thread started by an atheist. Just as obviously, said atheist was opening himself to retorts by non-atheists. So some non-atheists threw in their $.02 worth. So that constitutes "making trouble" on an "atheist thread". That must be a valid point, because, after all, atheists are always rational...:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:46 PM

To take a massive subject like Judaism, rich with not only belief, but also colorful and deeply felt tradition, deep affinities for life, literature, scholarship and song and dismiss it as "not serious" is quite a feat -- but, I am sorry to add, a very meretricious one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:00 PM

I've heard that one-sided shit before, Riginslinger. Islam has damaged the Israelis, too.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:13 PM

This was an atheist thread

Last I looked, Mudcat threads are still not moderated. Unless a named member got an OK for an Atheist Permathread-- which I would LOVE to see as well as a moderated Believers' Permathread-- threads like this one are still places where discussion can and will occur.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

Peace - Sorry, I didn't mean to sound one-sided. I was just taking exception to the concept that Judaism wasn't to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for that, Riginslinger. I should know better than to post after a rough day. My apologies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:33 PM

Opps looks like I lost my member status over my jew-ish joke about all major religions.

Oh well if it is merely a guest I must be so be it. We are all short term guests on this planet anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:34 PM

Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not.
Zen Buddhism #2: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit has happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible.
Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel.
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else.
Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen.
Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another.
Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another.
Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it.
Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)
Fundamentalism #2: If shit happens to a televangelist, it's okay.
Fundamentalism #3: Shit must be born again.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work.
Seventh Day Adventism: No shit shall happen on Saturday.
Creationism: God made all shit.
Secular Humanism: Shit evolves.
Christian Science: When shit happens, don't call a doctor - pray!
Christian Science #2: Shit happening is all in your mind.
Unitarianism: Come let us reason together about this shit.
Quakers: Let us not fight over this shit.
Utopianism: This shit does not stink.
Darwinism: This shit was once food.
Capitalism: That's MY shit.
Communism: It's everybody's shit.
Feminism: Men are shit.
Chauvinism: We may be shit, but you can't live without us...
Commercialism: Let's package this shit.
Impressionism: From a distance, shit looks like a garden.
Idolism: Let's bronze this shit.
Existentialism: Shit doesn't happen; shit IS.
Existentialism #2: What is shit, anyway?
Stoicism: This shit is good for me.
Hedonism: There is nothing like a good shit happening!
Mormonism: God sent us this shit.
Mormonism #2: This shit is going to happen again.
Wiccan: An it harm none, let shit happen.
Scientology: If shit happens, see "Dianetics", p.157.
Jehovah's Witnesses: >Knock< >Knock< Shit happens.
Jehovah's Witnesses #2: May we have a moment of your time to show you some of our shit?
Jehovah's Witnesses #3: Shit has been prophesied and is imminent; only the righteous shall survive its happening.
Moonies: Only really happy shit happens.
Hare Krishna: Shit happens, rama rama.
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit!
Zoroastrianism: Shit happens half on the time.
Church of SubGenius: BoB shits.
Practical: Deal with shit one day at a time.
Agnostic: Shit might have happened; then again, maybe not.
Agnostic #2: Did someone shit?
Agnostic #3: What is this shit?
Satanism: SNEPPAH TIHS.
Atheism: What shit?
Atheism #2: I can't believe this shit!
Nihilism: No shit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

Et tu Amos ?
I must have caught you at a very humorless hour.
Being raised in the Jewish culture but without all the dietary and ceremonial traditions, I am more of what the goyim would call a Mel Brooks Jew.


Amos "To take a massive subject like Judaism, rich with not only belief, but also colorful and deeply felt tradition, deep affinities for life, literature, scholarship and song and dismiss it as "not serious" is quite a feat -- but, I am sorry to add, a very meretricious one"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,formerly donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:41 PM

Well shit

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

Peace

But then, some science is based on belief, too.

Really? Examples please.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

OK go ahead , call Al Sharpton, tell CNN what I said, get the anti defamation league to picket me.

Why does this shit always happen to me?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,don
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:47 PM

why does this appear on my reply to thread page?

Adolf Hitler 1938
Get Adolf Hitler 1938 Ringtone? 100% Complimentary – Download Now!
Music-Bonus.com/Adolf-Hitler-1938Adolf Hitler 1938
Want Adolf Hitler 1938 Ringtone? 100% Complimentary - Get It Here!

__________________________________

You guys aren't fuckin funny anymore.
adieu

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 PM

"Peace

But then, some science is based on belief, too.

Really? Examples please."

As I said earlier, remeber the Rule of 48.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:52 PM

Ignostic: Without a coherent definition of shit it cannot be meaningfully discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

OK you guys canceled my cookie and removed my posts explaining Jew-ish humor. Lighten up, its Hannakah!

Nothing is so sacred that we can laugh together.

And ringslinger my apolgies if believed that the joke about being Jew-ish was misinterpreted. Besides I believe Mel Brooks told it first.

Amos, I was raised in the Jewish culture and find everything regarding scholorship, reasoning and humor to be most profound in my life.
The rest of it however like dietary restrictions et cetera... "eh"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:11 PM

I must admit that I hadn't come across the Rule of 48 before and haven't been able to find out much about it since but it seems to me to be a good example of how science works. The available evidence said there were 48 human chromosomes. Nobody challenged this for a while until someone came up with better evidence which people then accepted.

If it had been religion, there would have been a schism and the 48ers and 46ers would have been burning each other as heretics ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:26 PM

http://donuelhakman.angelfire.com/mudcatreply.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

Sorry I snapped there, Donuel. Such tsuris you should bnever have!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:40 PM

To TheSnail: that is a great post.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:45 PM

One thing. Nobody questioned it for over a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:57 PM

42
    --Deep Thought

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:25 PM

"I believe Mel Brooks told it first."

               I've always had trouble with Jewish humor.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM

Really! this Hitler ad is still on my mudcat page http://donuelhakman.angelfire.com/mudcatreply.jpg
Is it on yours too?

What assinine schmuck would allow mudcat to advertise Hitler for profit?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:37 PM

this is what I got when I clicked it.

a href="http://www.music-bonus.com/pp.jsp?a=302&ppc=google&k=adolf+hitler+1938&p=adolf+hitler+1938+ringtone">http://www.music-bonus.com/pp.jsp?a=302&ppc=google&k=adolf+hitler+1938&p=adolf+hitler+1938+ringtone

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:54 PM

I didn't see it before you posted about it. Now it's there.
wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz
Maybe Google Ads got infiltrated.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:23 PM

Comes as quite a shock to me that Washington might do anything illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:35 AM

It comes up blank for me. Is that the point?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:27 AM

Riginslinger, your statement made earlier in this thread that religion is the root of all evil has stayed with me, possibly because you succinctly and clearly state a belief that many others posting here have espoused with less clarity and more rancor.

I disagree.

Most human cultures have concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. some of those concepts are fairly universal among humankind, but each culture has it's own variations and nuances. There are also many instances in which the concepts of good and evil between different cultures are very different, even oppositional. Additionally, sets of values will contain values that can and do conflict internally. Different people with similar values will weigh those values differently, depending on circumstance, life experience, personality, etc.

From a rational and logical perspective, notions of good and evil are human constructs. It follows that humans are the root of all that humans label evil, and humans are also the root of all that humans label good.

Religion, regardless of the religion, is a social institution that fulfills a number of functions to preserve a culture. Humans have evolved to be a socially interdependent species, and this gets played out in all sorts of ways. Culture being one of them.

Viewed from a purely rational and logical perspective, humans are simply another species. We are animals.   Because we are one of those socially interdependent species, we form packs - street gangs, extended families, tribes, societies, cultures - you get my drift. And like many other species, we form pecking orders, territories, defend our territory, run-off and/or kill off rival packs, eat our young.   

Again, from a purely logical, rational perspective, all of these human constructs and social institutions, including values and notions of good and evil, have evolved, the same as for any other animal, as means of increasing the odds of survival of the individual, a particular gene pool, the colony, or the species.

When the red ants invade the colony of the black ants, we don't label the red ants evil. When the lion brothers attack a pride, kill the males and all the young progeny of those males, we don't call them evil. When honey bees dance their ritual dances conveying information about abundance and direction of pollen and nectar sources, we don't label them ignorant. When the worker bees feed several larva the royal jelly to insure the production of several queens, and those queens emerge and battle to the death, we don't call the surviving queen wicked,or the worker bees manipulative.

We tend to say-that's different, those species don't have the level of consciousness and awareness that we do. They don't know about good and evil, so they can't be accountable. Well, from a purely logical, rational, reality based perspective, we don't 'know emperically about good and evil. Those are value judgments, beliefs, generally more functional than not in terms of the survival of the individual, the tribe, and/or the species. How the hell do we know anything at all about the nature of the consciousness of another species.   We don't know much about the nature of consciousness of our own species. I suggest there is not enough information available at the present time to make any assumptions about the consciousness of anything that we at present consider sentient.

The negative things that some people here tend to attribute to 'religion', are not attributes of religion. They are attributes of people, of large social units, of methods and means of cultural preservation (which is one function of all social institutions, of well known and researched attributes of individuals and/or groups of any number of species.



Not particularly related to the above, but another link related to things that seem to be inherent in the human psyche. On metaphysics