BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:32 AM

Much of what we believe in our insignificant lives is based upon our own particular pattern of learning and understanding. There are many things which can be proved or disproved using so called 'understood methods' but even those may not be accurate.
For instance, the Phlogiston theory of the 17thc held that phlogiston was a substance which was colourless, odourless, invisible....but was present in imflammable items....so that when the item was burnt, the phlogiston disappeared...leaving the true material......apparently it could be proved by combustion of various materials.    So, many people believed it until it was refuted. Now we have different views on combustion but who is to say they are right now?.
We have all developed some sort of belief (or unbelief) pattern with regard to religion and/or Christianity and we try to live out those patterns...believing that it is right to do so. When we do that, we also try to do what is expected of us which may also require us to evangelise. Which of us can say that is right or wrong without understanding where any evangelist is coming from?
Some will remember that I am a born again Christian...as such I am expected, as a disciple of Jesus, to spread the truth of the Gospels, just as disciples did soon after Jesus death. I try not to force it on to people but even when treated gently, some people are so against 'beliefs' of any sort, they feel they are being forced to hear something they don't want to.
Many people I meet with regularly, know that I am likely to talk about my beliefs and some suffer it, some humour me and many just accept me for who I am and what I believe. There are very few who reject me as a person. Those who do are treated with the same love, compassion, respect as anyone else and are entitled to their own views.
What really saddens me is to see people of integrity on here who battle against each other over such issues when provoked by someone who wants them to do just that. What saddens me more is that some feel that they have to put down the other person rather than the views of that person.

Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:38 AM

Peace

As I said earlier, remember the Rule of 48.

One thing. Nobody questioned it for over a decade.

OK, they screwed up. Scientists are only human after all. There have been worse cockups than that. Look at Piltdown Man. That lasted forty years.

Until genetics really took off after the 1953 publication of the structure of DNA, it probably didn't matter very much anyway. I think it would have been long forgotten if Michael Crichton hadn't used it to have a go at scientists.

Getting something wrong and being insufficiently critical of someone else's published results is very different from saying "some science is based on belief".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:34 AM

Janie - You're right! When red ants go out to annihilate black ants we don't call it evil. But when Europeans go out to annihilate Africans we call it racism, or sometimes ethnic cleansing--most people would call that evil. But maybe it's not, maybe it's just normal primordial behaviour being acted out on a modern stage.

                   Intellectually, though, I think most people would see it as evil, and would refrain from doing it. But if you can introduce the concept of goD, and get people to annihilate the enemy in the name of goD, then you're onto something. You could do it totally for economic gain, even, as is often the case. All you have to do is say you're doing it in the name of goD, and that makes everything wonderful.

                   You can even go one step farther. Like in Sudan, for instance, you can get the Christians and the Islamists to go after each other in the name of goD, and while they're distracted, the Chinsese government, Exxon-Mobile and British Pertroleum can happily slip in and make off with the oil.

                   I can't think of a war going on on the face of the planet that isn't being conducted without a religious component. Frankly, I don't think you can have war without religion.
Ants can, but I don't think people can, they've evolved too far.

                   I think religion is evil all right. It's the most evil thing ever devised by man. It is, in fact, the root of all evil.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:26 AM

Janie raises some very interesting issues.

I suppose the differentiation has to be made between the individual spiritual horizon, whatever that may consist of, and the cultural accumulation of dramatizations, irrational practices and authoritarian data which comprise the knowledge body of many religions. Because all the evil that Riginslinger cites comes not from individual spiritual experience but from man's endless appetite to control others.

I am not sure about this extension of pure objectivity ending up classifying man solely as a herd-forming animal. At least, I think the differences in degree and kind of creativity are so great between our species and that of any other primates, that it points to some major qualitative distinction. I understand it as an intellectual exercise, of course, but I think it has to set aside too many points of difference to be compelling as an approach to understanding.

But in any case, the impact of Riginslinger's class of "evil" cannot be denied, even if the provenance of it is perhaps less spiritual events than a grand confidence scam using core human impulses like love and spirituality of some sort to make attractive what is essentially a large-scale exercise in human aberration and derangement.

The evil lies not in the inherent impulses behind religions, but in the resorting to deny the individual, suppress and channel his perception, enforce agreements, deny and enforce his natural ability to communicate, and trample on his natural affinities by forcing the individual to mold his feelings around arbitrary, false, overblown or destructive ralities (see Old Testament for some examples). When important information is shoved down your throat your thinking gets corkscrewed into totally unpredictable paths of irrational behavior.

Mind you, religion is not the only arena in which this sort of thing happens. Advertising has a similarly deadly impact, only slightly less formal in its tacit and corrosive beliefs.

Advertising itself is of course, as any business person knows, not an evil thing. But enforcing desires for objects and thereby enforcing beliefs about what is important to one that have no bearing on his or her native ability to reason is really wicked, whether done by priests or pitchmen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

Ringslinger ..

"Ants can, but I don't think people can, they've evolved too far."
people/humans haven't evolved far enough.

"I think religion is evil all right. It's the most evil thing ever devised by man. It is, in fact, the root of all evil."
I totaly agree with that statement.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

Regarding the mistake in counting human chromosomes, the error and its later correction had mostly to do with the advances made in microscope technology. Somewhere recently I saw pictures of what the earlier counter had to work with, and it's amazing he came as close as he did with such blurry resolution. Later images, when the count was corrected, are much, much clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:08 AM

Well, I wish Rig and biLL would offer a definition of what they are referring to when they use the word "religion" in the above statements.

Are you talking about particular branches or organizations? Any organized codification of metaphysical experience or nature? Any assertion about such nature? Individual experiences? Philosophical treatises?

What exactly do you mean is this "root".

I am not against the sentiment, but I would hate to let the thinking go unclarified.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

The negative things that some people here tend to attribute to 'religion', are not attributes of religion. They are attributes of people, of large social units, of methods and means of cultural preservation (which is one function of all social institutions, of well known and researched attributes of individuals and/or groups of any number of species.

I've posted often about the confusion in present-day culture between "religion" as advertised by the Rigid Religious Right, which is not religion but social control. (Rev. Gary Davis sang about TRUE religion.) I've posted about the way the RRR grab most of the press on religious matters and how the real, daily faith lived by the majority of believers is a very different thing from the RRR press campaign.

These posts mostly have been ignored. They're not as much fun as being mad at the RRR, nevermind that it means being mad at all religion too! So I guess it should not surprise me that people duped by the current RRR into thinking that it's the major reality of religious life could miss the fact that a similar phenomenon has gone on in the past. But the reality is that in the same periods of time so many anti-religionist folk rant wbout (for the bad things that were done in that time), there was quite positive religious life going on at the very same time and within the very same denominations that did so much wrong.

And this is the realtiy that Hardi and I know now. Sure, the Episcopal Church is getting lots of bad press for the divisions we're struggling with while we try to find a godly way around the places where we're stuck and disunified. But it has so little to do with the vitality and positivity of parish life as we know it not only in our own parish, but as we know it across this Diocese and others. And it makes us sad that so many people are so caught up in the bad news that they never see or hear or experience the good news.

Remember resonating to the dialog in "Pretty Woman" where Julia Robert's hooker-character explains that it's easier to believe the bad things? But our culture still lacks the ability to turn its attention away from the bad news- to think about the hope the good news represents.

That's what Hardi and I fell asleep discussing last night-- the hope of the good news. One thought I had before I dropped off was about the umpteenth suicide-shooter (at Von Maur's this time), from the evening's news-- another young man caught on videiotape in his black coat, dampened affect, raising a gun. "These shooters-- tragically devoid of a belief system that gave them hope," I thought. Then I wondered, "How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

Where am I going with this. Where I am going with this is that whether the objective realities bear out a life of faith or not, there is something good about having a positive belief system. People have asked me what I'm doing to correct our denominations' wrongs, as if I answer to them; they have no idea that I may very well be doing quite a bit of peace work and just don't care to talk about it here.

More pertinently to this discussion, they also don't tell me what THEY are doing to prevent these hopeless shootings, or how their lack of belief helps kids have hope and stay off that videotape..... so I'm curious how many Mudcatters who ARE helping with THAT social issue DO HAVE a belief system of some kind that involves faith of some kind.


Hardi also reminded me what one of his aged seminary professors used to say when asked about scientific proof of God. He likened it to proving "love:" a couple comes in to get married. Can they prove, scientifically, that they have the kind of love that will sustain a long and difficult relationship in today's world? No... not with today's science at least; but is it there?

MAYBE it is.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Well, well said, Suze.

It is not just Piskies, of course, and the dramatization goes on back through time to ancient African rites used to justify killing or cannibalism. Maybe further, even.

But the problem is never religion itself but what individuals do with it. There's plenty of wild-ass assertions in print out there, but which ones you take on board are an individual choice. And even if you take none, the real litmus test is what gets done between one hooming an' annuver.

I don't think religion between consenting primates is the problem that Rig is pointing to, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:19 AM

I don't think religion between consenting primates is the problem that Rig is pointing to, though.

If anyone thought I was responding to RS just because he'd posted before I did, I wasn't-- I don't read his posts anymore.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:20 AM

Oh, Gawd ferbid you should be misunderstood.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Alice
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:30 AM

People create religions. Attributes of religions are attributed to the people who create them.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:37 AM

"Bad Religion (Theme Song)"

See my body, it's nothing to get hung about.
I'm nobody except genetic runaround.
Spiritual era's gone, it ain't comin' back.
Bad Religion, a copout, that is all that's left
Hey Mr. Mime, stop wasting my time,
With your factory precision.
Factory precision is your
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, Bad Religion.
Ay!
Don't you know the place you live's a piece of shit?
Don't you know blind faith through lies won't conquer it
Don't you know responsibility is ours?
I don't care a think about eternal fires.
Listen this time, it's more than a rhyme,
It's your indecision.
Your indecision is your
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, Bad Religion,
Bad Religion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Tweed
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

I was gonna stay clear, but....

Religion's okay initially, but then humans start trying to interpret it and then it's no longer so good anymore. I ain't sure we are ready for religion yet. Just seems like a lotta people get hurt, killed or go crazy over it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

>>Why do you celibrate Christmas?<<

Because only a sour brooding idiot sits at home and refuses to be with his family on a special day. I could care less what Christmas is supposed to commemorate, I love my family and will get together with them any day they want to--Christmas, Thanksgiving, Ramadan, Chinese New Year or no particularly special day at all. Any day to spend with family is a special enough day.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:09 PM

Hi Susan,

Responding to what you say, I am mostly in agreement.

"Where am I going with this. Where I am going with this is that whether the objective realities bear out a life of faith or not, there is something good about having a positive belief system."

I do agree that a positive belief system is good and added to that, I think it doesn't
always require a religious belief system. I think religious and non-religious people
can agree to amenably disagree on what constitutes this belief system. I also agree
that the destructive tendency to tear down what seems to be antithetical to someone's view of reason does no good. I see religious people doing constructive things and in my own view, I interpret that as people just having a good sense of social values regardless of their belief system. I don't see the point of railing against something that I may not agree with. The only time I see religion as destructive is when it becomes a power move on the part of some to exert or exhort their views on others. Many religious people who I admire do not do this. Religion remains a personal experience for them and I am not going to question that. I do not presume to have a knowledge of their personal experience. I can respect them as people and not invade their private codes of belief.


" People have asked me what I'm doing to correct our denominations' wrongs, as if I answer to them; they have no idea that I may very well be doing quite a bit of peace work and just don't care to talk about it here."

It's not necessary for you to feel obligated to discuss anything about your private beliefs.
The US Constitution protects your right of privacy in these matters. I think there are communities of people regardless of their views of religion that are intensely interested in working for peace. We all do it in different ways. We all have different means to address this important issue.

One thing for sure, if we fight about such stuff as belief, we are not promoting peace but an argument that goes nowhere. I have become open minded enough now to respect that people have different experiences and interpretations of life.

I regret that I have made you uncomfortable and wanted to express my appreciation for
what you do musically. I have visited your website and admire the pulling together of the people to make music. This is one of the most important things we as artists can do
to build a lasting world peace.


"More pertinently to this discussion, they also don't tell me what THEY are doing to prevent these hopeless shootings, or how their lack of belief helps kids have hope and stay off that videotape..... so I'm curious how many Mudcatters who ARE helping with THAT social issue DO HAVE a belief system of some kind that involves faith of some kind."

I think that there are many of us who do different things to prevent the violence and irrationality that we see in the world. I think that "belief" in itself is a semantic question and that what we believe is not narrowly relegated to a Christian God. Einstein espoused Spinoza's God which he claimed was not a personal God, but a confluence of elements of the universe that science revealed as kind of "holy". His amazement at the expanse of the universe and it's development through evolved time was his "miracle".


"Hardi also reminded me what one of his aged seminary professors used to say when asked about scientific proof of God. He likened it to proving "love:" a couple comes in to get married. Can they prove, scientifically, that they have the kind of love that will sustain a long and difficult relationship in today's world? No... not with today's science at least; but is it there?"

Here, I think that science can play an important role in the analysis of what a sustained
relationship contains. Psychology is a fledgling science though not perfect as no science can ever be. There are fundamental questions as to what constitutes a loving relationship that is sustainable that can be answered by some scientific perception.

Dawkins discusses NOMA which was developed by the prominent scientist, Stephen J.Gould who suggest that (N.O.M.A.) No Overlapping Magesterium prevents science from
measuring religious systems of belief. I agree with Dawkins that a thorough scientific
investigation of religion is in the best interest of science and theology. Through this,
we may arrive at a useful moral compass to serve humanity.

Dawkins is important in my view because he is a true humanitarian. He doesn't attack people but listens to whatever they say respectfully. His discussions with eminent theologians are fine dialogues and a good model for those of us with different views to reach a common denominator of understanding.

Keep up the good work, Susan. Wish I could sit in on one of your "slow jams".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

>>But I was wondering about 282RA's reasons to celebrate what most people consider a religious holiday. Why pick Christmas? Why not have a Menorah around the house?<<

If my family wants to get together on Chanuka--fine. I'll be there.

And I DO have a menorah in my house. I also have several Qurans. I English bibles (some dating back to the 17th century), two Tanakhs, a Septuagint, a Greek NT, several Buddhist sutras, the Tao Te Ching, the Upanishads, the Nag Hammadi Library, the Tibetan and Egyptian Books of the Dead, several version of the Apocrypha, a scroll of the Book of Esther, a Buddhist scroll, several decks of tarot cards, a work in Sanskrit that I don't even know what it is but I bought it, the Pistis Sophia, a good dozen books of Freemasonry and astrology, as well as books by Burton Mack, G.A. Wells, Gerald Massey, Albert Churchward, John Shelby Spong, Nicholas Goodricke-Clarke, Daniel Dennett, John M.E. McTaggart, Thomas Paine. I have books on druidry, Greek mythology, the Book of Shadows, the Writings of Pliny, Lucian, Virgil, Homer, Josephus, the Apostolic writings, etc. And the great Alvin Boyd Kuhn--the one writer I admire than any other.

I have the Dancing Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva statue and a Buddhist tryptich on a shelf and a Celtic cross on the wall that can be seen as soon as you walk through the door.

I have recordings of Tibetan Buddhist chants, Islamic calls to prayer, old Christian hymns put out on the Yazoo label, religous music from Persia, India and Africa. I like avant-garde music because it's meditative. I adore movies as 2001, The Red Violin, Black Orpheus and others because I see an underlying message in them expresses my own private views aboutthe universe.

I am NOT the originator of this thread (at least two people think I am), I am not a materialist, I have a DEEPLY spiritual view that I do not share with anybody because it's nobody's business but mine, atheists are absolutely correct as far as their condemnation of organized religion goes, nor was I an atheist as a teen I became one in 90s when I was already in my mid-30s. I do not "evangelize" anybody and I have done nothing to deserve that accusation on this thread. My supplying quotes of past atheists (some of whom were actually quite religious as Kepler) was meant SOLELY for Little Hawk and his arrogant assertion that atheists are ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION immature little snots who never grew beryond their teen years (and then denies he ever said it).

So please STOP trying to paint me as materialist who spits on people who believe in god or an afterlife or a particular religion. I've made clear several times now that I have nothing against Christians who mind their own business. I have several friends that are promise keepers and another who runs a church founded by his late father. And I would appreciate it if fanatical Christians would stop pushing for intervention in the Middle East where they are turning Islam into a murderous, fanatical guerilla outfit that will never progress as long as these Christians continue to make their lives miserable with their goddamn meddling in other people's affairs. And if you are a Christian who believes in what we're doing over there then you ARE who I am referring to--so get over yourselves. If you're not then I wasn't talking about you so shut up.

And this isn't just addressed to Wesley, it's addressed to all of you.

Nows that's it. I'm done with you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:32 PM

Frank,

An admirable post.

I think the question of science applied to religious matters is a compelling one. I wrote upthread about the universes of discourse. If the universe of endless imagination, inspiration, aesthetic joy and live communication which is the apparently unbounded see of thought itself is to ever be addressed by science, it is going to have to find a methodology that can deal with the things that are substantive to thought, rather than the things which are substantive to matter. This duality is not going to go away, and the failure to address it except in rare instances like Dr. Larry Dossey, and perhaps Elizabeth Kubler-Ross,and a few others, is the hanging point of such a program. I do not believe there is room in such an effort for the idée fixée that thought must be born from the neurochemical. Rather it will have to address the dynamics of thought and perception in terms of the genuine seat of communication itself, experientially, and th eintimate matrix of created considerations that defines our inner lives.

That's not going to be simple, or easy, for many reasons, but it could be a lifetime's worth of fun.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

'I think it would have been long forgotten if Michael Crichton hadn't used it to have a go at scientists.'

Maybe. But in the biology book I learned from, and the teacher at that time, the text (in the arly 1960s) used that info.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them. But I still don't trust either religions or science. Too many vested interests--in both.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM

Amos, I agree that there is no easy formula to address this issue, the role of religion in science and that of science in religion. The question I have is does this mean that thought must be exclusive from matter? This wanders into the wispy area of metaphysics that concern philosophers. I think that the duality is subject to furthur investigation to determine whether this is paradoxical or a part of the same thing.

Peace, science is not to be trusted and as a result, scientists who are experts in their field don't trust it but continuously question its validations. It's always relative because as new information unfolds, it changes and adapts very much like the human condition.

I can see a case for religion adapting and changing also in a relativistic state as new ethical and moral considerations are brought to the fore. An example would be how the institutions of religion have changed to embrace new social concerns such as on the position of slavery, women's rights, civil rights, peace activism and the acceptance of new ideas out of the box.

It's hard to imagine the justification of slavery through religion today. As women ascend the pulpit, these sexual-based role identities have changed as well. Today's views do not represent "your father's religion (Oldsmobile). Some have taken the Sermon on the Mount seriously and question whether war is a viable solution to any problem.

I still think that this dialogue must eschew anger and reaction. Personal defensiveness
muddies the waters. I also think that this is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 03:36 PM

Janie got me thinking about the concept of good and evil.
There is probably a name for the philosophy that Good and evil do not exist from the viewpoint of a higher perspective.

A perspective that is near cosmological in existence in which the affairs of man at our current level of influence on the universe is neglible at best.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM

Wesley. no, that's just it, I specifically am NOT talking to the thinking deist, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

Donuel:
They say, think globally, act locally.

But if you start thinking cosmologically, you'll probably going to stop acting at all!

After all, with an infinite number of galaxies, and an infinite number of planets similar to earth, and maybe parallel dimensions where every time we act, another version of ourselves acts differently....

...aghhh! Why did I start thinking this way. Aghhh! I can't move!!! Help!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:08 PM

"religion, the root of all evil"

well, if religion isn't, it is pretty well parallel to whatever is the 'root' of all evil ... which to me is the EGO.

Can anyone provide convincing proof that religion is not 'one of' the main roots of all evil?

My mother was the only person who one could say was a firm athiest. She also was one of the most true humane, giving, peaceful people I have ever known. Many years later, long after her passing have I finally reached the point were I understand what she was all about.

I should also reinstate, it's not all about, what is right, or what is wrong.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:33 PM

biLL:

What constitutes "religion" in your post just above?

I must assume you mean grous coming together in pursuit of somethign they see as divine or spiritual.

Canyou be a bit more precise about what it is you think generates evil? Egos, now, are surely a deep pat of lots of aberration, but since even good people have them, they cannot themselves be the inherent fount of evil. So what is that generates ego-driven evil?

I would suggest it less having an ego than denying the egos of others -- that is, the blocking of compassion. Human affinity is a powerful force for the good, such that its denial is almost sure to generate harm of some kind.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:49 PM

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions. While science did give us penicillin (etc), it also gave us agent orange, DDT, thalidomide, VX gas (etc). We will no doubt go back and forth with "But people put those things to bad use, NOT science." Yeah, right. The President of the United States has science advisors. They KNOW what the bad stuff can do. Nope, folks, I ain't buying into the party line on this one. I still don't trust vested interests whether they be in science OR religion. Incidentally, there are few good purposes VX gas can be put to.

"VX gas was developed in the Porton Down Chemical Weapons Research Centre, Wiltshire, England in 1952 and its devastating effects were tested. The British traded the technology of VX with the United States of America for information on thermonuclear weapons."

Thermonuclear weapons info. Huh. Good trade. A new way to eradicate the common cold. And is religion much better? Not really. But then all that has nothing to do with G-d or stuff like that. Does it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Thanks for your post, Frank.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:02 PM

Amos:

Your assumption is correct pertaining to 'groups coming together in pursuit as something they see as divine or spiritual ... or even with an individual's pursuit as having the absolute true meaning of divinity or spirituality. This is the 'me' part of religion, the EGO. This can be seen as the only me (or my 'group') as having the Right way, all others are going the Wrong way. I am giving and passionate to others because it makes me (my EGO) feel righteous.

Human affinity is a powerful force for the good ... most certainly I cannot disagree ... but it must not be done to please the collective 'me'(EGO).

biLL



biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

I tend not to take a Manichean view of Evil and Good. I think we as a species are all too vulnerable in making awful mistakes. I would rather think in terms of sociopathy or psychopathology which ultimately doesn't work for society. The labels of "good" and "evil" have been co-opted by some for their personal agendas. For example, I'm sure that Falwell and Robertson have branded some folks as "evil" whether they merit this judgement or not.
I'm bothered by the philosophy of authoritarianism which promulgates "an eye for an eye"
and not a true picture of justice. In this context, "good" and "evil" are weapons in the hands of those who would take us to war.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:30 PM

Part of the difficulty--as some have pointed out--is that there are good people who are religious (involved in organized religion (I offer Susan as an example, and she'll know many more)) and good people who are involved in science. However, both institutions can be and have been at various times manipulated for political agendas, national aspirations, pursuits of power, economic interest/gain, and in the process they have euphemistically sold their souls to the highest bidders, and in doing so sold our souls as part of the deals.

I think it was Asimov who stated the three laws of robotics. The laws seemed to protect people. It was unlikely that Asimov developed those laws because of his religious beliefs--he had none to speak of. But he was aware of the religious tracts of Judaism and Christianity because he did do a "Guide to the Bible" (both OT and NT). Maybe he was simply altruistic. Who knows? But if we can accept that a purpose of human effort whether in religion or science is really an effort to more completely understand humanity and more ably help humans ease suffering and eradicate disease, then why DO we develop/do bad stuff--whether in the name of science or the name of religion?

Just asking questions here, folks.

Hope y'all have a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:42 PM

I tend to think any purpose is basically "goodish" that seeks to enhance the well-being of some life-related vector. Making a better roofing-shingle, or chairing the local PTA in an effort to raise literacy rates, or building a stronger family or promulgating higher standards of personal spiritual strength or individual ethics, or protecting animals from extinction -- the common denominator is an effort to achieve more life along one or another avenue. The problem of course arises when the vector of good ends up doing more harm to other efforts or other entities. We generally view death as the omega of badness, and life as the general bearing of goodness, but it gets pretty damn complexified in the details, huh?

There's no objective standard for this, although real metrics sometimes help. The only seat of ultimate judgement is the individual sense of right living and an understanding of consequences. "Unintended consequences" is a major provider of apparent evil efffects stemming from "good" impulses. So stupidity and lack f learning about the world has a major part to play in it too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

You paraphrased Forrest Gump: SHIT HAPPENS.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

Yeah, but I made it sound more truthy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:07 PM

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

""How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

I really don't know. But some 'fundies' have crashed hijacked airliners into office towers.

Fundies BTW, come in all religious denominations.

There are a lot of people busting their butts out there for humanity, charity and the benefit of mankind who are not doing it out of religious faith. Even Mother Theresa questioned her 'faith' ... but this should not take away from her sainthood in humanity.

All in all ... the true 'goodness' of humans is not (IMHO) fueled by collective religious beliefs.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:54 PM

""How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

I really don't know. But some 'fundies' have crashed hijacked airliners into office towers.

Fundies BTW, come in all religious denominations.


Of course that's true, but that part of my post was about the flat-affect hopelessness of our youth-- cold violence; it was not about hot violence-- wrong action fueled by fervor. It was not offered as a balance-sheet entry on which is more violent, but as an observation that a lack of beliefs seems to be as damaging as an excess of any stripe.

But my post also was about hope, and I kinda think the violence you cite is not about hope.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:18 PM

My personal view is that being given a world-view in which a huge external Entity is Responsible for Creation, and to whom Everyone Should Pray even if No Answers Appear is a good way to induce apathy and hopelessness into someone. I know that is not supposed to be the message, and that dissonance is one of the problems I have with the iconography and cosmology Being doomed to unforgiven sinner-hood unless and until one accepts an invisible, non=responsive siupport agent is kind of enough to twist anyone's mind around a phone pole, IMHO. Fortunately many Christians do not focus heavily on the ideological unpalatabiliies and concentrate on the undying virtues of compassion and help.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:36 PM

Just when I thought this thread had totally deteriorated into a slagging and spitting session, it turned back into(largely) a very thoughtful discussion.
Once upon a time, I "knew" that God was Jesus's Daddy, that us folks had all alienated ourselves from Him by being disobedient chilluns, and, fortunately, Jesus got nailed to some timbers so that we could go to heaven and meet Dad.
I "know" so little about God now that perhaps I don't even know that I wasn't right in the first place.
On the one hand, I've seen people whose lives were "train wrecks" until they came to a Christian faith. On the other hand, I've come to know nonbelievers of the highest moral stature.
And I just got a phone call I need to respond to before I get disconnected and lose this post....Dean

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM

"about the flat-affect hopelessness of our youth"

I like that line ..... and 'hope', especially for our youth ... something that certainly is diminishing in our western civilization sad to say.

Society, as a whole has to reinstate hope ... but then again, society as a whole has to demonstrate humanity and honesty ... yes, without argument faith can certainly provide that. The problem here arises when the EGO in faith surfaces and then "cold violence; will evolve into hot violence. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:21 PM

How many fundies, bad as they are, thought it a Good Thing to launch a war in the Middle East?

Or, for that matter, put an Idjit in the White House?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:39 PM

From now on when I look out the window and see the Bay of Fundy I'll be reminded of who put that Idjit in the White House.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:05 PM

"How many fundies, bad as they are, thought it a Good Thing to launch a war in the Middle East? "...Or, for that matter, put an Idjit in the White House?"

                   While it's pretty clear that fundies put an Idjit in the White House--and now they're going to try to replace him with Gomer Pyle--it was the Neo-Cons, it seems to me, who launched the war in the Middle East.

                   A reasonably thinking individual might come to the conclusion that the Neo-Cons have figured out a way to control the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:07 PM

That is very astute.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:09 PM

A YOUTUBE video to help us all like, lighten up and get down!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:15 PM

Oh, yeah, CRANK THE VOLUME!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

So, as it turns out, Chuck Berry had all of the answers the entire time. I thought Little Richard did that number as well, but those guys were goood... No doubt about that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:33 PM

A little something to soothe the savage breast--YOUTUBE

But leave the volume UP THERE.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

ELO = EGO   most definitely!

Good one Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:41 PM

And one last one for both my friends and enemies.


May G-d, science or whatever keep y'all safe and well. YOUTUBE

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:46 PM

And one from me to take you to the end of the line. Crank it out and enjoy the Silence of Bob.


A