BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 12:00 AM

Good one, Amos! It's all right!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:11 AM

They're all good. Thanks for posting them.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Frank,

I see religious people doing constructive things and in my own view, I interpret that as people just having a good sense of social values regardless of their belief system.

I wanted to sleep on that one. It niggled at me and I wanted to be sure what truthful fact was bugging me to let it rise to the surface. (The feeling was deep disagreement, but what was the fact?)

I strive, in my life, to be accurate. It's a deeply-embedded orientation from my upbringing. There was somehting inaccurate about that statement of yours, as I tried to fit it to the life I know [image of clothing cut for a different paper doll].

It's this-- I started out with pretty good values, so in that respect I agree with what I think you meant.

Where I may be diverging from your view is that my actions based on these and more-recently-embraced values has been greatly changed, strengthened, and made more "courageous," less "self-consicious," in the actions, the motives, the desired outcomes, the need even to know the outcomes.... actions that are enlivened and entwined with the personal presence of God with me when I take those actions.

And the values themselves have changed, grown, developed; partly as a matter of intention based on new imperatives with which I agree from my faith, and partly as a result of the learnings I have had while doing not what I might have wanted to do, but what I felt was obedient to God's imperatives whether discerned from Scripture, the teachings of preachers, or the personal presence of God and His guidance before the act and His affirmation after the act.

For me, this is one of the best aspects of my life in the faith as I look at it dynamically in present time and as I look back reflectively-- the constant challenge that takes me where I had not gone and where I would not have gone whie in the grip of my own interests.

And these actions are conformed to my love of our Lord-- very much NOT a matter of rigid, rule-driven obedience by rote.

I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, no matter how accurately I may try to write. But I think it is very, very different from the life in faith that most anti-religionists have witnessed, experienced, or been raised within or around. I think it is very different from what people rail against, and from the assumptions that drive their animus.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

People who worship at the altar of science - what about thinking people who actually learn what science has to teach? There is no worship in what I have learned. There is no faith in what I believe, since it's been replicably demonstrated. Things like the existence of evolution and the deep age of the universe, and the lack of existence of anything special in our place in things or of survival (past death, that is) of the psyche.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

And there are people who learn what religion has to teach. Thinking people. And in that simple observation, Mrzzy, you have stated a great truth. We all choose to believe what we all choose to believe. You may say that the course of the planets is controlled by gravity. OK. And science can and does demonstrate that. Others may choose to say that G-d created gravity, and no one can prove otherwise.

In the words of the prophet . . . FULL CIRCLE!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

(5th Dec)
Mary, for all you know it might take 2 gods. Everything else in the Universe seems to support some kind of dualism for existence.

Exactly Donuel, they all think they ARE God hence they all seek to be 'The One and only' there are many different braches, it just they are all trying to 'play God' in the end God is peace… anyone seen that lately!! There again peace in what we feel in our own souls, if you can, or have found that then you have found God…or something near to God. God = Sprit = strength, courage, character, strength of mind, moral fiber… It a shame more of the human race cant find some of these.

We all have our own beliefs surely that is finding 'our' God, whichever branch it comes from, one should respect the other……………of course that's an ideal situation, sadly for the human race it's impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

Mrzzy, I was using 'you' where I should have been using 'one'. No offence intended.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:05 PM

and the lack of existence of anything special in our place in things or of survival (past death, that is) of the psyche.

Mrrzy:

Do you have a reference for some scientific analysis disprovng the "survival of the psyche"? I didn't think there was even a scientific definiton of the psyche.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

Last year Richard Dawkins, well-known Oxford biologist who demonstrated the 'selfish gene', published "The God Delusion."
A new paperback edition will hit the bookstalls, January, 2008.
A good New Year's gift, if a little late for Christmas giving.

Dawkins characterizes the biblical Yahweh as psychotic, and focuses attention on intelligent design, pointing out fallacies in the construct. He regards religion as a divisive and oppressive force.

Additional suggested reading:
Christopher Hitchens, 2007, "God is not great, how religion poisons everything." Sample quote:
"Religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive towards children."
Like Richard Dawkins, he denounces the religious education of young people as child abuse.
Hitchins is a British journalist who frequently appears on American talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:56 PM

And the point is?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

"Like Richard Dawkins, he (Hitchens) denounces the religious education of young people as child abuse."

                And he's right. That's exactly what it is. That's why we have buffoons like Mike Huckabee running for president.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM

Speaking of books, "Breaking the Spell" (Daniel Dennett) is a fine read. He looks at religion from an anthropological and philosophical viewpoint. He's a non-believer, but he's not at all strident or Hitchens-esque. He's actually trying to appeal to religious folks to dip in.

I suspect everyone would find something to enjoy here.

I'm an atheist who does read the Bible; why not give Dennett a turn?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

I read Dennett's book and found it very informative. I didn't find his style all that easy to read, however.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

Hitchens is an off-putting commentator, often stretching to make a point on political talk shows. He reminds me of those overly bright kids in university who would break into a lecturer's speech, essentially saying, 'look at me, I'm brighter than the guy who is trying to teach you dumb bunnies.'
Dawkins argues from science; Hitchens is a journalistic pugilist who could take lessons from the late 19th c. orator who espoused agnosticism all across North America and England, Col. Robert G. Ingersoll. Ingersoll knew his subject and as well preached tolerance for all views- on the part of all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 06:26 PM

I am here. Now prove I don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

You got it all wrong GOD the Pretender ... we are all guests in God's house.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:34 PM

piffle, 'God'...if you were anything but a troll, you'd have a membership. Cookies are free here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

A book I would highly recommend to the religious, the unreligious, the irreligious, and the anti-religious is The Closing Of The Western Mind : The Rise Of Faith And The Fall Of Reason, by Charles Freeman.

Freeman discusses the history of Christianity objectively, with neither the advocacy, nor the hatred, nor the hysteria that many others discuss the matter, such as some of those mentioned above. It's not so much religion or religious people per se that are the problem, it's when particular religious institutions gain or are given secular power.

Freeman gives a history of Christianity from what was going on before it existed on into its early development as one religion among many, and its major turning point when Emperor Constantine, for reasons more political than religious, gave it the force of secular power. Then, Freeman traces the results of that transformation from there.

It explains a lot, and it is definitely a book that needs to be read as a warning for our time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

Dear God, Bill acknowledged that You exist.

If I were a PERFECT Christian I'd overlook that instead of ragging him about it, but I know You're still working on me. :~)

~Susan (hi Bill)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:22 PM

Got an email from an inlaw urging the reader to boycott the new U. S. dollar coin because 'In god we trust' had been removed. He was wrong, but it shows that he and others want to shove their narrow christianity down everybody's throat.

I agree, Freeman's book is a warning. Savonarola, the inquisition and the taliban are in the wings, striving to take over.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:17 AM

Add to that the religion of secularism...they too are waiting in the wings.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:41 AM

Ha! Fooled you! I don't really exist at all!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:28 AM

What is really interesting here is that this thread has been going since November based on a concept that many of the participants discard as fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:15 AM

What is really interesting here is that this thread has been going since November based on a concept that many of the participants discard as fantasy

Threads on this topic always do. Somehow, it's just more interesting than horror stories of how our car mechanics or doctors have screwed us up, when in fact managed care HAS already taken over the minds of our civilization.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

Haddocker, whether we dismiss it as fantasy or not, it wields enormous influence over our civilizations and often our personal lives. Why wouldn't we want to discuss it, whether we believe in it or not?

I know a sweet and otherwise apparently sane woman who doesn't allow people to wander around her garden at certain times of day because it might disturb the garden pixies or fairies (can't recall exactly what she calls 'em). She really believes they're out there, helping her veggies and flowers grow.

Now that is a fairly rare belief (espoused by an odd group of seventies Scottish counter-culture gardeners, if I remember right). It seems pretty harmless, unlikely to end in slogans on coinage; nevertheless, it makes some kinds of conversations with her difficult, and if it were to become as prevalent as certain other religious beliefs, could have a profound effect on how we were permitted to raise crops or even walk on the land. Might even be in some ways beneficial. But some of us would have to say 'now, wait a minute!', despite the 'good' such a belief might accomplish, because there's no evidence of such beings, and not all the effects would be good ones.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM

BTW, as regards "the altar of science" -- what the hell is that? Those I know who work in scientific arenas use intellectual tools like calculus, and they use powers of reason to assess probable connections between data. They use healthy skepticism to avoid taking assertions on faith, and use their wits to devise methods of proof or disproof. In short they are busy using human intelligence to figure thigns out.

Where's the goddamn altar in all this? These guys are not invoking articles of faith or handing off their responsibility to imaginary entities, or even invoking cosmic spirits as their raison d'etre. They are motivated by a sense of exploration and a desire to know and explore knowledge and avoid the deceptions that blind belief leads people into.

Now, I grant you there are some folks in the world who are NOT scientists and who are not even literate in the field, who sometimes elect "the scientists" as their ward against confusion, and buy bogus science labels on fast food supplements and choose thier toothpaste based on someone using the word "science". But, it seems to me, that discussing any subject at all, you could spin your wheels endl;essly if you added intot he conversation all the confusions introduced by people ignorant of the subject.

By and large, those who actually "do" science are not interested in finding masses of semi-ignorant people to follow their teachings. They have enough trouble getting knowledgeable people to understand what they find.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

A writer counters Papacy in a letter to the Times:

"To the Editor:

I am puzzled by Pope Benedict XVI's recent statement that "a world without God is a world without hope."

Tens of millions of atheists around the world lead lives filled with hope. We hope for many of the same things that Christians hope for: peace in our time, a better life for our children, justice for all, an end to poverty, and for a chance to enjoy our lives here and now.

The main difference between us and religious believers is that we accept that these things can be achieved only through our own efforts.

Steve Baughman
San Francisco, Dec. 1, 2007"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:33 AM

Is that Steve Baughman the well respected celtic fingerstyle guitarist? I think I have a Christmas CD of his. Anyway his recording with Robin Bullock is one of my favorites.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:39 AM

"X-RAYS produced by particle accelerators have confirmed the authorship of paintings and probed the structure of fossils. Now they are illuminating the religious rites of ancient Africans.

Pascale Richardin's team at the Centre for Research and Restoration of the Museums of France in Paris exposed the coating on sculptures used between the 12th and 19th centuries in the rituals of the Dogon and Bamama people of Mali to X-rays produced at the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility in Grenoble.

The coating produced the telltale fluorescence of protein molecules laden with haem, an iron-containing group found in blood (Analytical Chemistry, DOI: 10.1021/ac070993k). "Blood is often reported in religious contexts, linked to animal sacrifices," says Richardin..." (New Scientist).

---

Hmmmmmm....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

"Tens of millions of atheists around the world lead lives filled with hope. We hope for many of the same things that Christians hope for: peace in our time, a better life for our children, justice for all, an end to poverty, and for a chance to enjoy our lives here and now."

"The main difference between us and religious believers is that we accept that these things can be achieved only through our own efforts."


... thanks for sharing that with us Amos.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

Peace

Maybe. But in the biology book I learned from, and the teacher at that time, the text (in the arly 1960s) used that info.

Don't blame science for the inadequacies of your educational system. I blame the college principles myself.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them.

It doesn't "tend" to correct its mistakes, that's how it works. Scientists are highly competitive. As soon as one announces his theory, the others will fall on it like wolves to try and tear it apart.

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions.

Might I suggest, Peace, that you personal antipathy towards science is blurring your critical faculties?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

....and folks wonder why I have made myself scarce. I wish I had found this when it was started, as I would have closed it forthwith. A troll makes a statement bound to make the puppets dance, and they, quite predictably, do just that.

What I believe, or do not believe, is my business. It will be conducted in the privacy of my own processes. Whether I am a believer, an agnostic, or atheist; whether I live an ethical life or not, is not what this thread is about. It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.

Those that suggest that they have never met people of faith that acted on their convictions for the good of all, are idiots and bigots. How many examples do you want? Ever heard of the Berrigans? How about the good Sisters who went to jail for smearing blood on the missile silos? How about Mother Theresa who could care less what your religion was, or even if you had one? She just cared for those abandoned, or ignored by you ivory tower idiots. What you do with Mohatma? How about Father Flanigan, who didn't care about anything but living up to his vows to help kids without regard to religion, or race. This was heady and dangerous stuff in the early twentieth century. We could use folks like him today. Among Mudcatters, some of the most ethical and faith filled folks I have met are Pagan. They are excellent examples to hold up to your kids of how one should walk on this path.

Those that suggest that atheists, secularists, and agnostics don't live ethical, value filled lives, are likewise idiots and bigots. The list would be too long to fill, of the public figures. But right here on our own Mudcat, of those of you I have met, Bill D and Amos spring immediately to mind as people that are as good an example of caring, ethical and responsible people as one could find. They present their views in a respectful way, and challenge one's own ideas in the way that good discourse should. I see a number of you taking the secular view, and a number of you taking the faith community view, that need to take a lesson from them.

Back to the swamp, and my hill. Anyone seen my trusty Low D whistle? I think we need to get away from the noise and make some music for Orion....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:04 PM

Tell me this all you smokers and non-smokers out there. Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.


Hm! :~)

Mick, when I once wrote essentially that about a thread that had its share of negativity, you called it one of the best discussions you'd ever seen. Perhaps you meant to buck me up. I'd like to buck you up a bit too, because there were actually a few new thoughts in this thread that troubled you so, as well as some stellar evidence that some folks do actually keep thinking and reflecting-- they they learn from folks around them--

And IMO that's ALWAYS good news, no matter how much it may seem to disappear in a morass of stuck thinking.

Hoping your trusty low D showed you that pie in the sky somewhere near Orion,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Actually, Susan, I wasn't referring to you. The fact that it seemed so to you should probably mean more to you than me.

This thread is a troll generated discussion designed to get the participants to act in a predictable way. It covers no new ground, is not about a subject that consensus could be reached on, and the same players are essentially saying the same things. And now, I am one of those.

As to pie in the sky....., you really should learn to recognize metaphor. I am actually headed back out on the road, not to return home to my family until two days before Christmas. The work I will be doing involves whether folks will have health insurance, whether they will be unjustly detained by folks carrying automatic weapons, and what kind of lifestyle their children will have. I guess that qualifies in some minds as pie in the sky. But those are the minds I am fighting every day. I just hope that I am sufficiently equipped for these fights, as the implications are pretty big for the folks that are in the fight with me.

I just jumped in to point out that some folks just still seem to get pulled in by these online parasites. Sorry about that. I have been gone a while and didn't realize that I had interrupted your drumbeat. Must remember those rules of social etiquette for your world.

Got to go catch a flight.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:41 PM

Peace -
I'm not sure how smoking got in this thread, but studies by scientists working for big tobacco usually came to the same obvious conclusions as those of the independents. The studies were suppressed by those who paid for them: executives, not scientists.

Even in the fifties and sixties one fact was clear: smoking was a major cause of lung cancer. There was no actual disagreement about this, unless you consider outright lying a disagreement.

Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM

No Mick.... I didn't think you were referring to me.... I thought you were having a bad day.

The "pie in the sky" I referred to was the better times some of us reached in this thread, which are not at all like some of the past threads on the same topic in the past. As one poster saidsimilarly somewhere upthread, yes it did start as a nasty thing, but it soon eclipsed that intention to discuss things of more importance.

I hope you reach better times of your own, soon; I hope also that you will be able to remember that you are not alone in the good fight you describe.

Best wishes for a happy Christmas soon, with fam,ily,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM

ahem..." ...Bill acknowledged that You exist."

not if it's in quotes, Susan. ☺ All I did was accuse a not-so-clever troll of pretending.
(I dunno what I'd do if a post suddenly appeared in mid-air in FRONT of the computer screen. Probably 1)check my meds. 2)ask for an extended interview to check credentials. (I gotta stay 'faithful' to my skeptical principles, don't I?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

☺

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

I actually did see a page of computer text which appeared to be 'in mid-air' in front of the computer screen, but it was an optical illusion caused by putting 12 point text lines, two rows at a time, in red, on a black background, with white lines above and below. I remember it because it was devilish hard to read and might be useful for a project sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Good luck in your travels and your travails, Mick. I'd love to know more when you have the time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

"Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter."


Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

The Zeitgeist Release video has some strong sentiments. Worth watching.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:00 PM

Peace

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Sorry Peace, didn't mean to cause offence. That was intened as a rather light hearted quip having self censored my initial reaction. My assumptions are based entirely on the things you have said about science on here some of which seem to be based on prejudice rather than knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:02 PM

Peace

Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

I've no idea. Give me some references and I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:17 PM

So, as Mick has just pointed out, Troll "Ed" tossed the apple of discord into Mudcat--and the usual suspects immediately dove for it--over 400 posts worth.

A singularly useless waste of time--even worse than political threads. At least on political threads there are new developments to consider.

As if anybody can "prove" to the satisfaction of "Ed" or anybody else that God exists--or to any religious person that the opposite is true. Everybody knows it's a question of your own personal view. Nobody is about to be convinced either way. And tolerance takes another body blow, courtesy of an obvious agent provocateur.

Well, hope you continue to have fun. At least it's not absurdly long cut-and-pastes.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Whew, I can't possibly read all of this but it seems obvious that those who know Jesus or have experienced God will believe. Those who have not formed the relationship, do not believe.

Others prefer to say maybe there is and maybe there isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:50 AM

Peace

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

What makes you think he has?